Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution
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A
at minute 4:20 he sums up WHY the doctrine of penal substitution is beneficial
"then you can live through your identity in Christ. you can be bold enough to confess your sins and be forgiven not only by God but by others, and stop pretending and blame shifting and hiding and excusing and managing your sins. start putting your sin to death because in Christ it has already died. "
therefore Skinski you are mistaken and should formally apologize for the libel you have committed against this man by calling him a wolf and making such false statements as "Penal Substitution denies that God forgives sins."
"then you can live through your identity in Christ. you can be bold enough to confess your sins and be forgiven not only by God but by others, and stop pretending and blame shifting and hiding and excusing and managing your sins. start putting your sin to death because in Christ it has already died. "
therefore Skinski you are mistaken and should formally apologize for the libel you have committed against this man by calling him a wolf and making such false statements as "Penal Substitution denies that God forgives sins."
WHAT WAS HE DOING BLEEDING ON A CROSS?
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”
too bad for you Jesus did not become a curse for you.
NO EXCHANGE FOR YOU.
you're still under your own curse.
so is everyone who listens to you.
Matthew 20
[SUP]4 [/SUP]When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.[SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,[SUP]27 [/SUP]and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—[SUP]28 [/SUP]just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
1 Timothy 2
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— [SUP]2 [/SUP]for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. [SUP]3 [/SUP]This is good, and pleases God our Savior, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. [SUP]5[/SUP]For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,[SUP]6 [/SUP]who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles
Hebrews 9
9 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. [SUP]2 [/SUP]A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, [SUP]4 [/SUP]which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.[SUP]5 [/SUP]Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory,overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But only the high priest entered the inner room,and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. [SUP]8 [/SUP]The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. [SUP]9 [/SUP]This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscienceof the worshiper. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They are only a matter of food and drinkand various ceremonial washings—external regulationsapplying until the time of the new order.
The Blood of Christ
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[SUP][a][/SUP] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[SUP][b][/SUP] eternal redemption. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. [SUP]14[/SUP]How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[SUP][c][/SUP] so that we may serve the living God!
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant,that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]In the case of a will,[SUP][d][/SUP] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, [SUP]17 [/SUP]because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. [SUP]18 [/SUP]This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. [SUP]19 [/SUP]When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. [SUP]20 [/SUP]He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. [SUP]22[/SUP]In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself,now to appear for us in God’s presence. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, [SUP]28[/SUP]so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.[SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,[SUP]27 [/SUP]and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—[SUP]28 [/SUP]just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
1 Timothy 2
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— [SUP]2 [/SUP]for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. [SUP]3 [/SUP]This is good, and pleases God our Savior, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. [SUP]5[/SUP]For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,[SUP]6 [/SUP]who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles
Hebrews 9
9 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. [SUP]2 [/SUP]A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, [SUP]4 [/SUP]which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.[SUP]5 [/SUP]Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory,overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But only the high priest entered the inner room,and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. [SUP]8 [/SUP]The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. [SUP]9 [/SUP]This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscienceof the worshiper. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They are only a matter of food and drinkand various ceremonial washings—external regulationsapplying until the time of the new order.
The Blood of Christ
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[SUP][a][/SUP] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[SUP][b][/SUP] eternal redemption. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. [SUP]14[/SUP]How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[SUP][c][/SUP] so that we may serve the living God!
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant,that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]In the case of a will,[SUP][d][/SUP] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, [SUP]17 [/SUP]because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. [SUP]18 [/SUP]This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. [SUP]19 [/SUP]When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. [SUP]20 [/SUP]He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. [SUP]22[/SUP]In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself,now to appear for us in God’s presence. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, [SUP]28[/SUP]so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Penal Substitution is basically the teaching that the believer swapped places with Jesus in a judicial sense.
The wages of sin is death (which is true). Therefore Jesus had all the sins of believers literally transferred to His account so that when God looked at Jesus He saw a guilty sinner. Jesus was then punished by God for being a guilty sinner. Thus the punishment is no longer due to the believer.
Attached to Penal Substitution is the teaching that the "obedience of Jesus" is literally transferred to the believers account.
So in other words the criminal record of the sinner is transferred to Jesus and He was punished for it. The perfect obedient track record of Jesus is transferred to the believer. Thus Jesus is a Penal Substitute for the sinner in a judicial sense.
The problem with this teaching is that it is not in the Bible. Jesus did not teach it nor did anyone else. A few Scriptures are used to support it like Psalm 53:4-5 but if you read those verses they do not say what people imply they say.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Verse 4 says that "WE" esteemed Him stricken and smitten of God (from human perspective). Verse 5 says that Jesus was wounded, bruised and chastised on our behalf (due to our sin). Yet those verses do not say that Jesus absorbed the wrath of God as a guilty sinner on the cross.
Jesus was offered WITHOUT SPOT on our behalf.
Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:14 contradicts the assertion that He was spotted with our sin. He "bore" our sin and suffered, He WAS NOT punished by God for our sin. Sin is moral and the guilt cannot be transferred to someone else. If the guilt was transferred to Jesus and He was punished instead of us then it means that God does not forgive those sins but punished another instead.
The real kicker with this doctrine is that it is only 400 years old. You will not find any reference to Penal Substitution in the early church. Some reformers will find a few references using the word "substitute" in some writings but if you read the context you'll see it has nothing whatsoever to do with Penal Substitution.
The real problem with Penal Substitution (besides it being 400 years old and not found in the Bible) is that it relegates reconciliation to God as a mere "judicial exchange" and thus the application is PURELY FORENSIC. This is why you'll hear many theologians use the term "forensic justification."
Penal Substitution serves to give a sinner an assurance that they have been reconciled to God (through the judicial swap) while they remain in rebellion. It negates the true purpose of a genuine broken repentance where the rebellion is forsaken and one comes into an agreement with God.
Penal Substitution in effect has God PRETENDING that the sinner is righteous because of the legal exchange. Thus true righteousness which is something that flows from a heart that has been made clean (through union with Christ) is relegated to a secondary position. Read my first post again as I list some of my very specific objections to the doctrine. I view it as an extremely dangerous doctrine.
I linked the Wikipedia article because it describes how the doctrine developed. There have been quite a few views of the atonement throughout history. The early Church held to the Ransom, Moral Influence and Christis Victor views. Thus they taught that the death of Jesus on the cross was so that "we could die with Him."
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Carefully read the above Scripture. The wages of sin is death. Eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Not carefully look at this Scripture...
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
There are two laws. One law is that of sin and death. You sin you die! Yet God has given us a GIFT, a way out. That way out is THROUGH Jesus Christ. Notice in Rom 6:23 that IT DOES NOT SAY the "wages of righteousness is eternal life." This is because once someone sins the guilt cannot be undone, the conscience is permanently defiled. A return to obedience cannot undo what was done before. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the sinner is doomed.
So what Jesus did was He came to this earth and lives a perfectly obedient life of walking after the Spirit. He was an example for us. He offered Himself on behalf of our sins (sin offering) so that we can die with Him. Jesus basically reconciled the whole human race to God THROUGH HIM. Yet we have to ACCESS this gift.
Jesus purchased us from death and slavery (to sin) by His blood but we have to choose as to whether we leave death and slavery. This is why we must DIE WITH HIM.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
It is through DYING WITH HIM that we can be RAISED WITH HIM. Dying with Him means we crucify out old rebellious life, Paul calls it the "old man." That old man who earned death for sin must perish, either in this life, or at the judgment. We get to choose.
It is the SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST which sets us free. That is a life of walking in submission to the Spirit of God. We basically approach God through repentance and faith completely broken over our rebellion. We forsake our old ways and cry out to God for mercy. The blood of Jesus Christ purifies our consciences, it removes the guilt. It removes the curse of the law.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
But WE have to die with Him. There is no DYING WITH HIM in Penal Substitution. That is why they do not preach on the crucifixion of the flesh. They treat the death of Christ as a judicial provision which you access simply by "trusting that it happened." There is no death of the old man, there is no cessation of rebellion, there is no crucifixion of the flesh. That is why it is so dangerous.
Penal Substitution, as i sad earlier, immunises the mind against the truth. If one is totally convinced that their salvation is rooted in the judicial exchange of Penal Substitution then it can be TERRIFYING to have it challenged because the person will feel naked before God. Also when one is confused about the issue, "questioning the doctrine" will often be viewed as delving into dangerous heresy. They'll feel like they are denying Christ because they have held onto this teaching for so long. Penal Substitution is a very powerful stronghold in the mind.
Yet those who hold it ought to really think about it. REALLY REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.
Why didn't the early church teach it?
Why is it only 400 years old?
They need to answer those questions.
The wages of sin is death (which is true). Therefore Jesus had all the sins of believers literally transferred to His account so that when God looked at Jesus He saw a guilty sinner. Jesus was then punished by God for being a guilty sinner. Thus the punishment is no longer due to the believer.
Attached to Penal Substitution is the teaching that the "obedience of Jesus" is literally transferred to the believers account.
So in other words the criminal record of the sinner is transferred to Jesus and He was punished for it. The perfect obedient track record of Jesus is transferred to the believer. Thus Jesus is a Penal Substitute for the sinner in a judicial sense.
The problem with this teaching is that it is not in the Bible. Jesus did not teach it nor did anyone else. A few Scriptures are used to support it like Psalm 53:4-5 but if you read those verses they do not say what people imply they say.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Verse 4 says that "WE" esteemed Him stricken and smitten of God (from human perspective). Verse 5 says that Jesus was wounded, bruised and chastised on our behalf (due to our sin). Yet those verses do not say that Jesus absorbed the wrath of God as a guilty sinner on the cross.
Jesus was offered WITHOUT SPOT on our behalf.
Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:14 contradicts the assertion that He was spotted with our sin. He "bore" our sin and suffered, He WAS NOT punished by God for our sin. Sin is moral and the guilt cannot be transferred to someone else. If the guilt was transferred to Jesus and He was punished instead of us then it means that God does not forgive those sins but punished another instead.
The real kicker with this doctrine is that it is only 400 years old. You will not find any reference to Penal Substitution in the early church. Some reformers will find a few references using the word "substitute" in some writings but if you read the context you'll see it has nothing whatsoever to do with Penal Substitution.
The real problem with Penal Substitution (besides it being 400 years old and not found in the Bible) is that it relegates reconciliation to God as a mere "judicial exchange" and thus the application is PURELY FORENSIC. This is why you'll hear many theologians use the term "forensic justification."
Penal Substitution serves to give a sinner an assurance that they have been reconciled to God (through the judicial swap) while they remain in rebellion. It negates the true purpose of a genuine broken repentance where the rebellion is forsaken and one comes into an agreement with God.
Penal Substitution in effect has God PRETENDING that the sinner is righteous because of the legal exchange. Thus true righteousness which is something that flows from a heart that has been made clean (through union with Christ) is relegated to a secondary position. Read my first post again as I list some of my very specific objections to the doctrine. I view it as an extremely dangerous doctrine.
I linked the Wikipedia article because it describes how the doctrine developed. There have been quite a few views of the atonement throughout history. The early Church held to the Ransom, Moral Influence and Christis Victor views. Thus they taught that the death of Jesus on the cross was so that "we could die with Him."
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Carefully read the above Scripture. The wages of sin is death. Eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Not carefully look at this Scripture...
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
There are two laws. One law is that of sin and death. You sin you die! Yet God has given us a GIFT, a way out. That way out is THROUGH Jesus Christ. Notice in Rom 6:23 that IT DOES NOT SAY the "wages of righteousness is eternal life." This is because once someone sins the guilt cannot be undone, the conscience is permanently defiled. A return to obedience cannot undo what was done before. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the sinner is doomed.
So what Jesus did was He came to this earth and lives a perfectly obedient life of walking after the Spirit. He was an example for us. He offered Himself on behalf of our sins (sin offering) so that we can die with Him. Jesus basically reconciled the whole human race to God THROUGH HIM. Yet we have to ACCESS this gift.
Jesus purchased us from death and slavery (to sin) by His blood but we have to choose as to whether we leave death and slavery. This is why we must DIE WITH HIM.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
It is through DYING WITH HIM that we can be RAISED WITH HIM. Dying with Him means we crucify out old rebellious life, Paul calls it the "old man." That old man who earned death for sin must perish, either in this life, or at the judgment. We get to choose.
It is the SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST which sets us free. That is a life of walking in submission to the Spirit of God. We basically approach God through repentance and faith completely broken over our rebellion. We forsake our old ways and cry out to God for mercy. The blood of Jesus Christ purifies our consciences, it removes the guilt. It removes the curse of the law.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
But WE have to die with Him. There is no DYING WITH HIM in Penal Substitution. That is why they do not preach on the crucifixion of the flesh. They treat the death of Christ as a judicial provision which you access simply by "trusting that it happened." There is no death of the old man, there is no cessation of rebellion, there is no crucifixion of the flesh. That is why it is so dangerous.
Penal Substitution, as i sad earlier, immunises the mind against the truth. If one is totally convinced that their salvation is rooted in the judicial exchange of Penal Substitution then it can be TERRIFYING to have it challenged because the person will feel naked before God. Also when one is confused about the issue, "questioning the doctrine" will often be viewed as delving into dangerous heresy. They'll feel like they are denying Christ because they have held onto this teaching for so long. Penal Substitution is a very powerful stronghold in the mind.
Yet those who hold it ought to really think about it. REALLY REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.
Why didn't the early church teach it?
Why is it only 400 years old?
They need to answer those questions.
You constantly bring up this PERFECTION strawman. Obeying God from the heart does not mean you never make a mistake. It means you heart is simply set on God. Simple.
Jesus did say this...
Mat_5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Do you think heart purity is impossible?
Jesus did say this...
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Are you saying that is impossible? That God gave a commandment you cannot keep?
Jesus taught this...
Luk_6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
And this...
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Do you truly believe that having a "good and honest heart" set on God is impossible?
That is all God is asking for. A heart without guile. A heart yielded to God. It is very simple.
Yet you keeping twisting that into "perfection" as in never making a mistake.
Does God not have the power to redeem you from ALL iniquity and to PURIFY you?
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Why so many people argue in favour of defilement and sin. Why do they preach a gospel of defeat? To most people to be a Christian you have to be sinning in thought, word and deed everyday. Those who don't are labelled as "self-righteous" heretics. Good called evil and evil called good? I think so.
Jesus did say this...
Mat_5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Do you think heart purity is impossible?
Jesus did say this...
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Are you saying that is impossible? That God gave a commandment you cannot keep?
Jesus taught this...
Luk_6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
And this...
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Do you truly believe that having a "good and honest heart" set on God is impossible?
That is all God is asking for. A heart without guile. A heart yielded to God. It is very simple.
Yet you keeping twisting that into "perfection" as in never making a mistake.
Does God not have the power to redeem you from ALL iniquity and to PURIFY you?
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Why so many people argue in favour of defilement and sin. Why do they preach a gospel of defeat? To most people to be a Christian you have to be sinning in thought, word and deed everyday. Those who don't are labelled as "self-righteous" heretics. Good called evil and evil called good? I think so.
I don't deny the atonement. I am SPECIFICALLY speaking about the PENAL SUBSTITUTION VIEW of the atonement.
Jesus shed His blood on the cross so that our past sins could be remitted.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Zone... Why didn't the early church teach this Penal Substitution view?
Why didn't Jesus teach the Penal Substitution doctrine?
Why does this doctrine only show up 400 years ago?
Where does the Bible specifically state that the "righteousness of Christ" is imputed to you? What verse says those words? The Bible says "faith is imputed as righteousness" but where doe it say that the "righteousness of Christ" is imputed?
I asked that question to you before and you quoted a verse that said something else. If this doctrine is true where does the Bible teach it? Where does Jesus teach it?
Jesus shed His blood on the cross so that our past sins could be remitted.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Zone... Why didn't the early church teach this Penal Substitution view?
Why didn't Jesus teach the Penal Substitution doctrine?
Why does this doctrine only show up 400 years ago?
Where does the Bible specifically state that the "righteousness of Christ" is imputed to you? What verse says those words? The Bible says "faith is imputed as righteousness" but where doe it say that the "righteousness of Christ" is imputed?
I asked that question to you before and you quoted a verse that said something else. If this doctrine is true where does the Bible teach it? Where does Jesus teach it?
- ^ [SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] [SUP]c[/SUP] [SUP]d[/SUP] D. Smith, The atonement in the light of history and the modern spirit (London: Hodder and Stoughton), p. 96-7: 'THE FORENSIC THEORY...each successive period of history has produced its peculiar type of soteriological doctrine...the third period--the period ushered in by the Reformation.'
- ^ [SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] [SUP]c[/SUP] [SUP]d[/SUP] Vincent Taylor, The Cross of Christ (London: Macmillan & Co, 1956), p. 71-2: '...the four main types, which have persisted throughout the centuries. The oldest theory is the Ransom Theory...It held sway for a thousand years. [...] The Forensic Theory is that of the Reformers and their successors.'
- ^ [SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] [SUP]c[/SUP] J. I. Packer, What did the Cross Achieve? The Logic of Penal Substitution (Tyndale Biblical Theology Lecture, 1973): '... Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Melanchthon and their reforming contemporaries were the pioneers in stating it [i.e. the penal substitutionary theory]...'
- ^ [SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] [SUP]c[/SUP] L. W. Grensted, A Short History of the Doctrine of the Atonement (Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1920), p. 191: 'Before the Reformation only a few hints of a Penal theory can be found.'
- ^ [SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] [SUP]c[/SUP] H. N. Oxenham, The Catholic doctrine of the atonement (London: Longman, Green, Longman, Roberts, and Green, 1865), p. 112-3,119: '...we may pause to sum up briefly the main points of teaching on Christ's work of redemption to be gathered from the patristic literature of the first three centuries as a whole. And first, as to what it does not contain. There is no trace, as we have seen, of the notions of vicarious satisfaction, in the sense of our sins being imputed to Christ and His obedience imputed to us, which some of the Reformers made the very essence of Christianity; or, again, of the kindred notion that God was angry with His Son for our sakes, and inflicted on Him the punishment due to us ; nor is Isaiah s prophecy interpreted in this sense, as afterwards by Luther; on the contrary, there is much which expressly negatives this line of thought. There is no mention of the justice of God, in the forensic sense of the word; the Incarnation is in variably exclusively ascribed to His love; the term satisfaction does not occur in this connection at all, and where Christ is said to suffer for us, huper (not anti) is the word always used. It is not the payment of a debt, as in St. Anselm's Cur Deus Homo, but the restoration of our fallen nature, that is prominent in the minds of these writers, as the main object of the Incarnation. They always speak, with Scripture, of our being reconciled to God, not of God being reconciled to us.' [p. 112-3]; 'His [Jesus'] death was now [in the Reformation period], moreover, for the first time viewed as a vicarious punishment, inflicted by God on Him instead of on us.' [p. 119]
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Rather than go over all you wrote(too time consuming). You do not yourself attempt to strive to keep all of the literal commands of Christ, yet you demand/insist others do. Christ said this:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. [SUP]5 [/SUP].’[SUP][d][/SUP]”
Now, Love God and love your neighbour
Is it impossible to keep those commands? You tell me.
Do you perfectly at all times 24/7 love God with all yourt heart, and perfectly love all of those you come into contact with?
You see Skinski, you quote some of the literal letter and make demands accordingly, but they are demands you cannot byourself keep.
As for me excusing sin. Where does that come from?
I am just beiong honest here.
The Bible is a blueprint as to how the Christian should live, and it tells of the route to achieving that.
If we were robots we would perfectly follow the ideal. But alas, we in bodies of flesh and often take two steps forward and one step back, that is the reality
Am I happy about that? No! But it is the truth.
You are stressing what the individual must do, not what God does through the individual. That to me says much
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. [SUP]5 [/SUP].’[SUP][d][/SUP]”
Now, Love God and love your neighbour
Is it impossible to keep those commands? You tell me.
Do you perfectly at all times 24/7 love God with all yourt heart, and perfectly love all of those you come into contact with?
You see Skinski, you quote some of the literal letter and make demands accordingly, but they are demands you cannot byourself keep.
As for me excusing sin. Where does that come from?
I am just beiong honest here.
The Bible is a blueprint as to how the Christian should live, and it tells of the route to achieving that.
If we were robots we would perfectly follow the ideal. But alas, we in bodies of flesh and often take two steps forward and one step back, that is the reality
Am I happy about that? No! But it is the truth.
You are stressing what the individual must do, not what God does through the individual. That to me says much
2 Corinthians 5
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[SUP]21[/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[SUP]21[/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
You won't answer my simple questions will you?
Why is that?
Yes we can keep the commands of Jesus and yes we can love God from a pure heart.
Does that mean we are 24/7 thinking about God? No of course not. We work, we have responsibilities, we have families. We think about other problems and work through things. Yet that does not mean the heart in not pure. We do ALL THINGS through Christ. When we yield to God it becomes more and more out nature to do so. So while we may fall short from time to time it is NEVER from a defiled heart set on iniquity, it is never of a willful defiance in doing our own thing.
I am very specific about this but people take non-presumptuous sin and presumptuous sin and mix them together and label it all the same. They are not the same.
An individual with a pure heart does not steal or look at pornography. They may misjudge someone or be fearful in a situation they ought not to be. Thus there is growing to do, but growing is not rebelling less and less.
God looks at the heart. If we have a faith that works by love as we walk after the Spirit thus allowing the light of God to manifest through us then God credits us as righteous, despite out shortcomings. Walking in the flesh is not a shortcoming but is rebellion.
If you didn't mix the two kinds of sins then you would not have a problem with what I say. The only reason I can perceive you have a problem with what I say is that you must believe that grace covers an act of willful rebellion in the sense that you remain justified. Is that correct?
Why is that?
Yes we can keep the commands of Jesus and yes we can love God from a pure heart.
Does that mean we are 24/7 thinking about God? No of course not. We work, we have responsibilities, we have families. We think about other problems and work through things. Yet that does not mean the heart in not pure. We do ALL THINGS through Christ. When we yield to God it becomes more and more out nature to do so. So while we may fall short from time to time it is NEVER from a defiled heart set on iniquity, it is never of a willful defiance in doing our own thing.
I am very specific about this but people take non-presumptuous sin and presumptuous sin and mix them together and label it all the same. They are not the same.
An individual with a pure heart does not steal or look at pornography. They may misjudge someone or be fearful in a situation they ought not to be. Thus there is growing to do, but growing is not rebelling less and less.
God looks at the heart. If we have a faith that works by love as we walk after the Spirit thus allowing the light of God to manifest through us then God credits us as righteous, despite out shortcomings. Walking in the flesh is not a shortcoming but is rebellion.
If you didn't mix the two kinds of sins then you would not have a problem with what I say. The only reason I can perceive you have a problem with what I say is that you must believe that grace covers an act of willful rebellion in the sense that you remain justified. Is that correct?
Good scriptures there too. "Made the righteousness of God IN HIM."
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Righteousness does not come by the rules and regulations of the law. Righteousness comes via abiding in Christ.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
There is no forensic transfer of righteousness found in the Bible. Righteousness is manifested when we yield and are led by the Spirit of God.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Righteousness does not come by the rules and regulations of the law. Righteousness comes via abiding in Christ.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
There is no forensic transfer of righteousness found in the Bible. Righteousness is manifested when we yield and are led by the Spirit of God.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
That there is the strawman.
The just walk BY FAITH. Which means their heart is pure, they do what they do to the best of their ability. It does not mean they don't fall short. The Bible says this...
Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
He may fall but he gets right up again. Yet what the false teachers will do is teach that "willful sin" is a "fall." It's as if you stumble into fornication or drunkenness by accident. No way, those are acts of the will and are acts of rebellion. If you do those things you are unrighteous and not righteous.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
The just walk BY FAITH. Which means their heart is pure, they do what they do to the best of their ability. It does not mean they don't fall short. The Bible says this...
Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
He may fall but he gets right up again. Yet what the false teachers will do is teach that "willful sin" is a "fall." It's as if you stumble into fornication or drunkenness by accident. No way, those are acts of the will and are acts of rebellion. If you do those things you are unrighteous and not righteous.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
I won't answer your simple questions?
You say we can keep the commands of Jesus
Do you not invite friends and family home for a meal but rather the blind, lame and poor so that you will receive your reward in Heaven?
If you don't, according to your rigid interpretation are you living a life of wilfull rebellion against God?
And if you are not, how can you have one rule fo yourself and another for other people.
I can write you out a list if you want of other commands BTW.
If you make excuse for yourself, how can you be inflexible with others?
Is it walking in love and a pure heart to demand of others what you do not attempt to do yourself?
What is your fruit for God Skinski?
As I have asked you before
Do you run a soup kitchen in your spare time?
Do you seek out homeless people and offer them shelter for the night?
Do you give all your spare money to the poor?
Or do you just demand of others what you do not attempt yourself to do?
I am sorry if this sounds harsh but if you are going to rigidly quote the literal letter to others and tell them the consequences of failing to obey it, doesn't the same consequences apply to you?
The reason I have a problem with what you say is because I was brought up with it and I have seen its destruction. If you want I'll elaborate on that.
As for my shortcomings. I admit I have them yes, I am a sinner saved by grace, are you?
Sin is transgression of the law
You say we can keep the commands of Jesus
Do you not invite friends and family home for a meal but rather the blind, lame and poor so that you will receive your reward in Heaven?
If you don't, according to your rigid interpretation are you living a life of wilfull rebellion against God?
And if you are not, how can you have one rule fo yourself and another for other people.
I can write you out a list if you want of other commands BTW.
If you make excuse for yourself, how can you be inflexible with others?
Is it walking in love and a pure heart to demand of others what you do not attempt to do yourself?
What is your fruit for God Skinski?
As I have asked you before
Do you run a soup kitchen in your spare time?
Do you seek out homeless people and offer them shelter for the night?
Do you give all your spare money to the poor?
Or do you just demand of others what you do not attempt yourself to do?
I am sorry if this sounds harsh but if you are going to rigidly quote the literal letter to others and tell them the consequences of failing to obey it, doesn't the same consequences apply to you?
The reason I have a problem with what you say is because I was brought up with it and I have seen its destruction. If you want I'll elaborate on that.
As for my shortcomings. I admit I have them yes, I am a sinner saved by grace, are you?
Sin is transgression of the law
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There is no libel. Just because that man "says" Penal Substitution is true it does not make it true. Catholics "say" that infants must be baptised. It does not make it true.
That man is blatently teaching that YOUR FUTURE SINS are forgiven in advance. He totally contradicts this...
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
This...
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
That wolf might have a lot of swelling words but notice he doesn't use the Bible to support what he is teaching. He speaks of future sins being already forgiven but he won't show a Bible verse which supports that. There is no Bible verse that supports that.
No-one here can show a verse that teaches that either. I can show plenty of verses which say that the sins must be forsaken BEFORE forgiveness is granted. The truth is many people don't really believe the Bible they pretend to believe.
Penal Substitution does LOGICALLY deny God forgives sins. God takes your sins and puts them on Jesus and then punished Jesus for those sins. Those sins were not forgiven, they were punished. The sins were simply appropriated to an innocent and that innocent was punished so the guilty could go free. Where is that in the Bible?
The parable of the unforgiving servant has forgiveness of sin. There is no substitute. No-one paid the penalty. Forgiveness was freely granted. It is the same with the cross, when we approach God through the sin offering of Jesus Christ sins are freely forgiven. They are not transferred and still punished.
That man is blatently teaching that YOUR FUTURE SINS are forgiven in advance. He totally contradicts this...
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
This...
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
That wolf might have a lot of swelling words but notice he doesn't use the Bible to support what he is teaching. He speaks of future sins being already forgiven but he won't show a Bible verse which supports that. There is no Bible verse that supports that.
No-one here can show a verse that teaches that either. I can show plenty of verses which say that the sins must be forsaken BEFORE forgiveness is granted. The truth is many people don't really believe the Bible they pretend to believe.
Penal Substitution does LOGICALLY deny God forgives sins. God takes your sins and puts them on Jesus and then punished Jesus for those sins. Those sins were not forgiven, they were punished. The sins were simply appropriated to an innocent and that innocent was punished so the guilty could go free. Where is that in the Bible?
The parable of the unforgiving servant has forgiveness of sin. There is no substitute. No-one paid the penalty. Forgiveness was freely granted. It is the same with the cross, when we approach God through the sin offering of Jesus Christ sins are freely forgiven. They are not transferred and still punished.
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Substitionary penal atonement is the foundation of the gospel since the death of Jesus.
"Righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. . .and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that comes by Jesus Christ.
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation), through faith in his blood.
He did this to demosntrate his justice (righteousness), because. . .he left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished (passed over)--he did it to demonstrate his justice (righteousness) at the present time." (Ro 3:22-25)
That is substitutionary penal atonement in clear terms: Jesus subsituted for me in taking God's punishment to atone for my sin.
The only heresy here is your anti-Biblical assertion.
"Righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. . .and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that comes by Jesus Christ.
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation), through faith in his blood.
He did this to demosntrate his justice (righteousness), because. . .he left the sins committed beforehand (OT) unpunished (passed over)--he did it to demonstrate his justice (righteousness) at the present time." (Ro 3:22-25)
That is substitutionary penal atonement in clear terms: Jesus subsituted for me in taking God's punishment to atone for my sin.
The only heresy here is your anti-Biblical assertion.