Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

Skinski7 · Jan 29, 2013

I liken it to this verse...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no forensic transfer of righteousness. We are literally MADE RIGHTEOUS by being IN HIM.

In other words we ABIDE IN CHRIST and the LIGHT OF GOD is MANIFESTED THROUGH OUR BEING because we are in SUBMISSION TO THE SPIRIT.

That is why John could say this...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If righteousness was "forensically transferred" then John could not have said that "he that doeth righteousness is righteous" because DOING would have nothing to do with it.

Everything that Jesus taught was about DOING.

Jesus said DO...

Mat_12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It is in the DOING that true righteousness is produced.

FAITH = DOING. Read Hebrews 11 for in every example the faith is ACTIVE. It is not passive trust. Faith is DOING what God tells you to do.

The human soul is purified through DOING.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

If there is no doing then the heart is not made pure. If the heart is not made pure then there is no faith working by love and thus there can be no true manifest righteousness. The forensic transfer is a myth. God literally MAKES PEOPLE RIGHTEOUS by purifying the hearts of those who OBEY HIM.

Salvation is in YIELDING TO GOD. Hence we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Faith being the dynamic principle by which we put the grace of God into effectual use. Hence we WORK TOGETHER with God. That is why DOING is so key. If there is no doing then the grace of God is received to no benefit for no heart purity results.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

So I have no problem with 2Cor 5:21. It makes perfect sense to me. What 2Cor 5:21 DOES NOT SAY though is anything about a judicial transfer. Look at the verse again...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Does that verse really say that the righteousness of Christ is forensically credited to your account and that your sins are credited to Jesus and that He bore the wrath of God in your place? It doesn't say anything like that. Yet that is the best verse these heretics have which they twist into trying to support this dangerous doctrine.

Skinski7 · Jan 29, 2013

Elin said:

Here we go again. Where does Romans 3:22-25 say that Jesus took your punishment? It doesn't say that.

Does this verse say Jesus was punished by God as your penal substitute? No! It says that the righteousness of God is BY FAITH onto all those who believe.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Does this verse say Jesus was punished by God as your penal substitute? No! It simply says all have sinned.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Does this verse say Jesus was punished by God as your penal substitute? No! It says we are JUSTIFIED FREELY by His grace through the redemption that is IN Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

We are redeemed through ABIDING IN JESUS CHRIST.

Where is this judicial transfer in the Bible. You quote verses as proof that don't say any such thing. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

This doctrine is 400 years old. It was never taught in the early Church. It is not in the Bible. It is supported by mere CONJECTURE in how it is INSERTED into verses which say no such thing.

Does this verse state it? NO! His righteousness was declared for past sins because He was a spotless offering.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Notice is says PAST SINS and not FUTURE. Future sins are not forgiven in advance. That is a false teaching.

Skinski7 · Jan 29, 2013

SarahM777 said:

How about Theopedia?

Atonement of Christ - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

The Penal-Substitution Theory: This view was formulated by the 16th century Reformers as an extension of Anselm's Satisfaction theory. Anselm's theory was correct in introducing the satisfaction aspect of Christ's work and its necessity, however the Reformers saw it as insufficient because it was referenced to God's honor rather than his justice and holiness and was couched more in terms of a commercial transaction than a penal substitution. This Reformed view says simply that Christ died for man, in man's place, taking his sins and bearing them for him. The bearing of man's sins takes the punishment for them and sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law: The righteousness of the law and the holiness of God are satisfied by this substitution.

Or Lecture 7 in Randall Hastings book...

The idea of atonement in Christian theology

The idea of atonement in Christian theology

There is a lot of material online. You won't find this doctrine taught in the early church. I encourage people to do their own research.

Tommy4Christ · Jan 29, 2013

I think penal sub has been covered well on some of these posts, its a false teaching that makes the death of Christ more of a covering for a false sin nature. An offering or substitute.
An offering or substitute!

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The death of Christ is not something you want to get wrong, but there are many false teachings on this today, teaching Jesus became sin on the cross, thus God poured out His wrath on Him, as He became sin and suffered our deserved punishment, often called penal substitution.
Jesus was clearly a sin offering, used many times in the book of Isaiah, as He was sinless, and spotless without blemish, offered up as an offering for the forgiveness of all our past sins!
Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation( an atoning victim) through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
Jesus could not have been our substitute and a sin offering at the same time, it’s either one or the other, one declares us righteous while we are still sinners, and the other offers the sinner a choice, which is to repent, as Jesus commanded to all, Luke 13-3, where we become the living sacrifice, by touching His blood as stated in Romans Ch 12. As this living sacrifice we then walk the crucified life, Gal 2-20, obeying God from the heart, and abstaining from the indulgences of this world. 1 John 2-15-17!
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
We then become the living sacrifice as we die with Him in repentance, and now walk in newness of life, cleansed and purged from all sin and defilement.
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience (SIN) from dead works to serve the living God?
If you believe you come into the kingdom, through the Billy Graham, repeat after me sinners prayer, then just receive the package deal that says Jesus took your place, is your righteousness and substitute, you do nothing such as repent first, and I mean repentance on the scale of Nineveh, then please check out what the early saints taught about the atonement.
Jesus was a one-time sin offering, and He came to ransom all mankind from the corrupting influence of sin! He died on our behalf, not in our place!
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
He came with a purpose, and that was not to save the lost world IN their sins, Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! But out of them, to take them away by opening their eyes,
Act 26:18 in order to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness (repent) to light and from the authority of Satan to God, so that they may receive remission (forgiveness) of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
The whole purpose of the atonement wasn’t to provide a covering for ongoing sin and disobedience, but a plan set forth by God, for mankind to reconcile himself to God, 2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are the Messiah's representatives, as though God were pleading through us. We plead on the Messiah's behalf: "Be reconciled to God! Touching the blood of Christ, brought through His ability and great need to repent and stop sinning, as commanded by God!
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Now as we walk in newness of life, which is the crucified life, free from the bondages of sin, that can only come through the clearing of repentance, guarding our heart from sin and temptation, set free in reality not some fake provision or substitute that never occurred. So you can see Jesus never became sin, He came to destroy its influence on us, as we come to the mercy seat, through brokenness brought on through repentance!
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, (appeared) that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So if you are still in bondage to sin, and worldliness, and think Jesus did it all for you in the sense He took your place (substituted His righteousness for yours) then you have a big problem with what the word of God clearly teaches on the death of Christ!
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
He came to redeem us from sin, not cover us IN them, and to purify unto Himself a remnant of devout followers, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, separated from a dark and perverse world, that is void of truth and heading for destruction!
Tommy 7-25-12
PS. When the word talks about sin, there must be a distinction (separation) of sins that lead to death, and those that do not! Galatians 5-19-21, 1 Cor 6-9-10, Rev 22-15, lists some sins that if not completely repented of lead to spiritual death! Plus many more severe warnings, that is that willful, deliberate, presumptuous sins against God, leads to death! Other mistakes, poor judgments, faults, misplaced zeal, etc., have no bearing on sins that lead to death, unless they work into guile, hate, envy, lust, and pride etc. There must be a balance between willful deliberate(pre-planned) sin, and all our daily faults, struggles and mistakes, that are not sins that lead to death, but also must be kept in check, so they DO NOT lead us into temptation, where the will gives in, is drawn away and enticed, which then gives birth to sin and death!
It’s a process, you don’t walk along and fall into fornication, or drunkenness, or get so upset or angry, that eventually leads to violence and profanity, unless you believe all sin is the same, thus making those who claim to do what is right before God a liar, self-righteous and being dishonest!
All the vile sins must have been crucified with Christ, through repentance, or else the old man is still alive and well, maybe subdued for a time as you change some things in your life, but if you are still struggling with these sins, and consider them a normal practice in the life of a Christian, then you must go and do your first works , Rev 2-5, crucify your flesh with Christ, Gal 2-20, and walk a life pleasing to God, by a heart made pure by obeying His word, through the power of His spirit, now dwelling in a cleansed and purged vessel, ready to receive His implanted word(truth) with great meekness and humility, that comes only through a truly broken and repentant heart!

Crossfire · Jan 29, 2013

On the one hand you have Pelagianism and on the other you have Augustinianism. I've researched both and have found both to be very lacking as it pertains to the scriptures. We know through Augustine's own confessions that he was nothing more than a sinner. What's sad is that the only writings we have of Pelagius' are Augustine's quotes of Pelagius which many scholars now consider to be unreliable due to multiple inconsistencies on Augustine's account thus no one really knows if Pelagius was the legalist that Augustine made him out to be. One can't help but wonder if both sides have been deceived by Augustine's carnal ramblings.

Tommy4Christ · Jan 29, 2013

Here is another good analysis of penal, and where it came from, many have never heard of ransom,.......courtesy standingthegap.org

A Ransom for Many!

The Ransom Theory: The earliest of all, originating with the Early Church Fathers, this theory claims that Christ offered himself as a ransom (Mark 10:45). Where it was not clear was in its understanding of exactly to whom the ransom was paid. Many early church fathers viewed the ransom as paid to Satan.
The Satisfaction (or Commercial) Theory: The formulator of this theory was the medieval theologian Anselm of Canterbury (1034-1109), in his book, Cur Deus Homo (lit. Why the God Man). In his view, God's offended honor and dignity could only be satisfied by the sacrifice of the God-man, Jesus Christ. Anselm offered compelling biblical evidence that the atonement was not a ransom paid by God to the devil but rather a debt paid to God on behalf of sinners. Anselm's work established a foundation for the Protestant Reformation, specifically the understanding of justification by faith. See main page on Satisfaction theory
The Penal-Substitution Theory: This view was formulated by the 16th century Reformers as an extension of Anselm's Satisfaction theory. Anselm's theory was correct in introducing the satisfaction aspect of Christ's work and its necessity, however the Reformers saw it as insufficient because it was referenced to God's honor rather than his justice and holiness and was couched more in terms of a commercial transaction than a penal substitution. This Reformed view says simply that Christ died for man, in man's place, taking his sins and bearing them for him. The bearing of man's sins takes the punishment for them and sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law: The righteousness of the law and the holiness of God are satisfied by this substitution. See main page on Penal substitution theory
The Moral-Example Theory (or Moral-Influence Theory): Christ died to influence mankind toward moral improvement. This theory denies that Christ died to satisfy any principle of divine justice, but teaches instead that His death was designed to greatly impress mankind with a sense of God's love, resulting in softening their hearts and leading them to repentance. Thus, the Atonement is not directed towards God with the purpose of maintaining His justice, but towards man with the purpose of persuading him to right action. Formulated by Peter Abelard (1079-1142) partially in reaction against Anselm's Satisfaction theory, this view was held by the 16th century Socinians. Versions of it can be found later in F. D. E. Schleiermacher (1768-1834) and Horace Bushnell (1802-1876).
He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors![

He loved us when He gave Himself a ransom(14) for us, that He might cleanse us by His blood from our old ungodliness, and bestow life on us when we were almost on the point of perishing through the depravity that was in us. Let no one of you, therefore, cherish any grudge against his neighbor. For says our Lord, "Forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you."(15) Give no occasion to the Gentiles, lest "by means of a few foolish men the word and doctrine [of Christ.] be blasphemed."(16) For says the prophet, as in the person of God, "Woe to him by whom my name is blasphemed among the Gentiles."

It was not until St. Anselm's famous work Cur Deus Homo (1098) that attention was focused on the theology of redemption with the aim of providing more exact definitions[4] (though there is disagreement as to how influential penal conceptions were in the first five centuries). Anselm held that to sin is for man "not to render his due to God."[5] Comparing what was due to God and what was due to the feudal Lord, he argued that what was due to God was honour. "'Honor' comprises the whole complex of service and worship which the whole creation, animate and inanimate, in heaven and earth, owes to the Creator. The honor of God is injured by the withdrawal of man's service which he is due to offer."[6] This failure constitutes a debt, weight or doom, for which man must make satisfaction, but which lies beyond his competence; only if a new man can be found who by perfect obedience can satisfy God's honor and by some work of supererogation can provide the means of paying the existing debt of his fellows, can God's original purpose be fulfilled. So Christ not only lives a sinless life, which is again his due, but also is willing to endure death for the sake of love. Thus, Anselm's view can best be understood from medieval feudalistic conceptions of authority, of sanctions and of reparation. Anselmian satisfaction contrasts with penal substitution in that Anselm sees the satisfaction (i.e. restitution) as an alternative to punishment "The honor taken away must be repaid, or punishment must follow" (bk 1 ch 8), whereas penal substitution views the punishment as the means of satisfaction.
Broadly speaking, Martin Luther followed Anselm, thus remaining mainly in the "Latin" model identified by Gustaf Aulén. However, he held that Christ's atoning work encompassed both his active and passive obedience to the law: as the perfectly innocent God-man, he fulfilled the law perfectly during his life AND he, in his death on the cross, bore the eternal punishment that all men deserved for their breaking the law. Unlike Anselm, Luther thus combines both satisfaction and punishment.[7]

Calvin appropriated Anselm's ideas but changed the terminology to that of the criminal law with which he was familiar - he was trained as a lawyer - reinterpreted in the light of Biblical teaching on the law. Man is guilty before God's judgement and the only appropriate punishment is eternal death. The Son of God has become man and has stood in man's place to bear the immeasurable weight of wrath; the curse, and the condemnation of a righteous God. He was "made a substitute and a surety in the place of transgressors and even submitted as a criminal, to sustain and suffer all the punishment which would have been inflicted on them."[8]

The work of the Reformers, including Zwingli and Philip Melanchthon, was hugely influential. It took away from religion the requirement of works, whether corporal or spiritual, of the need for penances, belief in purgatory, indeed the whole medieval penitential system; and it did so by emphasizing the finality of Christ's work

The word atonement was invented in the sixteenth century by William Tyndale who recognized that there was not a direct English translation of the biblical Hebraic concept. The word is composed of two parts "at" and "onement" in order to reflect the dual aspect of Christ's sacrifice: the remission of sin and reconciliation of man to God. Tyndale's concept overcome the limitations of the word "reconciliation" whilst incorporating aspects of propitiation and forgiveness.[1][2][3]

Recapitulation (First Millennia AD)
Humanity’s problem was that sin separated us from God, causing death due to lack of “participation” in God’s immortality. Christ in becoming human and living a human life, combined the natures of God and human in himself, thereby spiritually reuniting man and God, and thus saving us from death.

Christus Victor (First Millennia AD)
Christ “fought” against all the different “powers” that hold humanity in hostage (Satan, death, sin, disease, poverty etc), and “defeated” them. He defeated sickness by healing people, he defeated poverty by helping the poor, he defeated the devil by casting out spirits, he defeated death by being resurrected etc. In this way he waged war against these things, both defeating them himself and inspiring us to do the same and not fear them.

Ransom from Satan (First Millennia AD)
The souls of sinners are under Satan’s power, so in order to rescue us, Christ offered himself to Satan in exchange for our souls. But since Christ himself had no sin, Satan was unable to hold Christ within his power and God resurrected him from death. This view is depicted by CS Lewis in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.

Moral Exemplar (First Millennia AD)
Christ through his life set an example to inspire and for us to follow. Through his teachings taught us how to live and what was important. Through his death demonstrated faithfulness to God and his teachings becoming a martyr and setting an example. Through his resurrection he showed that death was not the end and that God approves of those who live like Jesus.

Satisfaction (1100-1500AD)
God’s honor was offended by our sin, therefore being infinitely honorable he had to inflict infinite punishment on us to preserve his honor. However through Christ’s perfect obedience to the point of death, God’s honor is restored, and we no longer need to be punished. (Developed to replace Ransom from Satan)

Penal Substitution (1500AD onward)
God is just so he must punish our sins by sending us to hell. Christ died taking on himself our sins/punishment, thereby allowing God to forgive us. (Developed from Satisfaction)

Governmental View (1600-1900AD)
Christ died as a public demonstration by God as to the seriousness of sin, and because it is right that there be punishment for sin. Our sin wasn’t actually transferred to Christ. (A version of Penal Substitution)

Ransom Verses: Passages like 1 Corinthians 15:21-26, 1 Corinthians 15:55, Hebrews 2:14-15, 2 Timothy 1:10, and Matthew 27:52-53 which refer to death as an enemy, and describe Jesus' death and resurrection as being victorious over death and destroying death for believers.
Passages like Romans 6:18, Romans 8:21, Galatians 5:1, Romans 6:7, and Revelation 1:5 emphasize setting the captives free, a strong theme in the ransom theory.
Revelation 5 and 19 describe Jesus as a victorious conquering king who has conquered death.

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Skinski7 · Jan 29, 2013

Crossfire said:

You can read Pelagius' commentary on the book of Romans here...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z0z1WvscKkkGr7nX-p5vj7DRYUSmhs4Csfm0aF_RsyY/edit?pli=1

I do have issues with some of Pelagius' views but on the whole he is far closer to the orthodoxy of the early church than Augustine. Augustine held to platonic dualism and introduced it into Christian orthodoxy, of that there is no doubt. He taught things that were simply not taught before. While some of the earlier church fathers hinted at a vice of origin none of them denied free will like Augustine came to believe and promoted.

Augustine is the father of Reformed Theology.

The charge that he "denied grace" or preached "works salvation" is a false charge made by people who have never read the writings of Pelagius for themselves.

Pelagius also wrote commentaries on all the Pauline Epistles but these are currently only available in Latin. I know Jesse Morrell is thinking of having them translated into English and then publishing them.

zone · Jan 29, 2013

Scott, i find your mission repulsive.
i doubt there's much to be done about it.
there have always been people like you who think they've found something special.

you like Judaism. we get that unbelieving jews deny they have a sin nature - that's one reason they reject Jesus.

but go talk to rabbis about the sacrifical system and just see if there was anything in it whereby the sins of the people were transferred to an innocent party...and how God then used that and DECLARED them CLEAN.

have you done that yet?

or are you just sitting in some basement creeping pastors online?

Skinski7 said:

i guess it was understood - until Rome came up with new ideas,...and guys like you came along and couldn't grasp the Sacrificial System.

you don't deny the atonement; you say Jesus shed His blood on the Cross; so our [past] sins could be remitted; so that through faith in His blood one can be saved. is that about right?

what exactly did His blood DO?
why did He have to shed BLOOD and die?
couldn't He just have taught?

clearly explain without DeSario; AnteNicene fathers; outside websites - exactly WHAT Jesus died for.
explain YOUR understanding of the Atonement.

which of YOUR past sins did He die for Skinski?
the ones you committed before you were born; the ones you committed when pretending to be saved but steeped in sin; the ones you commit now; the ones you will commit in the future....which of those past sins did He shed His blood for.
if you sin tomorrow you're going into eternal fire i guess.

Skinski7 said:

Leviticus 16
6“Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the LORD at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Azazel.a 9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD and use it as a sin offering, 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

15“Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat. 16Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses. 17No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel. 18Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19And he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleannesses of the people of Israel.

20 “And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall present the live goat. 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.

23 “Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and shall take off the linen garments that he put on when he went into the Holy Place and shall leave them there. 24 And he shall bathe his body in water in a holy place and put on his garments and come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people and make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 And the fat of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. 26 And he who lets the goat go to Azazel shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 27 And the bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. Their skin and their flesh and their dung shall be burned up with fire. 28 And he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.

do you have any clue whatsoever what the two goats were for, on The Day of Atonement (not to mention all the other animals and offerings)?

can you read?

are you able to see Jesus Christ at all in God's Sacrificial System?

can see one goat killed as a sin offering? - blood.

and another there's another goat there. see it?

do you know anything at all about that goat?

anything?

what was that goat for?

what was that goat carrying away alone into the wilderness to die outside the camp?

was it guilt?

did that goat sin?

whose guilt was laid upon it?

why?

by whom?

who demanded that goat be included in the plan?

Isaiah 43:25
“I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Hebrews 9:26
Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Hebrews 9:12
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 13:13
Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit

~

something to think about Scott:

GOATS will hear this said them....about how they treated The Lord's brothers - His sent ones....His pastors (sheep) who He called to preach the true Gospel (to His sheep). Notice He says as they the sheep did it (or the goats did not do it) to the least of those His brothers, they did it (or did not do it) to HIM.

Matthew 25
The Final Judgment
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Skinski7 · Jan 29, 2013

Zone,

Again a lot of rhetoric with no Biblical citations which prove the Reformed Doctrine of Penal Substitution.

That doctrine is 400 years old and you act that the Bible does not make sense without it.

The Bible existed BEFORE Penal Substitution was even invented. Yet you paint a picture pointing to Leviticus 16 and the cape goat bearing the iniquities as if that somehow proves that God poured out His wrath on Jesus. There is not a single scripture in the entire Bible that states anything remotely close to God pouring out His wrath on Jesus instead of you.

The Bible does say that Jesus died on your behalf as a sin offering and that He bore the iniquities of us all.

What did the scape goat do? The scape goat carried away the sins of the people. What did Jesus do?

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Did the scape goat bear the wrath of God? No! The scape goat carried the sins of the people away and so did Jesus.

We are sanctified through Jesus offering once and for all.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jesus rose from the dead didn't He? Jesus bore our sins and took them away just like the scape goat bore the sins of the people and took them away. Jesus rose from the dead to newness of life. Likewise we die with Christ, our old sinful man is put to death, and we are raised up with Christ to newness of life. The blood cleanses our consciences of dead works so we can serve the living God in an acceptable manner. That's not what Penal Substitution teaches at all. Penal Substitution is a forensic judicial transfer that supposedly takes place and still leave the sinner the Romans wretch and Chief of All Sinners right? The blood of Christ is more than that.

Jesus did not become GUILTY of our sins as Penal Substitution implies and then receive punishment for those sins thus satisfying the wrath of God. You cannot find that anywhere in the Bible. That doctrine was invented by lawyers who wanted to put a penal spin on Anselm's Satisfaction Model. Look it up! History proves it clearly.

All you are doing is jumping around the Bible and grabbing some verses and saying "SEE" and "YOU DENY THIS" when those passages have NOTHING TO DO with Jesus being your Penal Substitute and nor do I deny them.

You can believe in Penal Substitution if you want and and buy into all that it implies. I am just pointing out to people that it is a 400 year old doctrine that was invented by the Reformers, that it was never taught in the early church, and that the doctrine has many logical inconsistencies when examined.

Instead of you addressing the points I make you jump on a tangent to avoid the specifics of the issue. I have seen you do that many times. I wish you wouldn't but that is up to you.

I'll specifically list some of my objections again.

Penal Substitution Doctrine

1. The Penal Substitution doctrine is only 400 years old. It is a development of the Satisfaction Model of the Atonement which was first proposed by Anselm in the 1tth Century. The Reformers added a judicial element to the Satisfaction Model whereby they taught that Jesus was literally PUNISHED by God and thus bore the wrath due the sinner. This is where the FUTURE forgiveness of sins really first began to take hold due it being a logical necessity of this doctrine. The Bible clearly teaches that PAST SINS are forgiven in Christ, not future rebellion (Rom 3:25). In fact there is no sacrifice for continued rebellion (Heb 10:26-29).

Read the history of this doctrine. The early Church NEVER TAUGHT IT. Yet SO MANY blindly believe it.
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. Penal Substitution denies that God forgives sins. It teaches that sin is a literal transferable property and that God transferred sin to an innocent (Christ) and then punished Him in the place of the sinner. It was through this act that God's wrath was appeased and thus the sin debt was paid. Thus sins are not freely forgiven they are instead transferred and still punished. It is true that Jesus BORE our sins and that Jesus was an appeasement offering but not in the sense of a Judicial Penal Substitution. Judicial Penal Substitution is Reformed Heresy.

3. Penal Substitution logically concludes that salvation is purely forensic and that unconditional eternal security is true. Penal Substitution serves to redefine salvation as a mere book-keeping entry where the problem between God and man is rectified through a legal transaction as opposed to repentance and faith. Repentance and faith deal with the root issue of sin, ie. the actual motivation for rebellion and is dealt with once and for all. Penal Substitution removes this aspect from the reconciliation process completely and the result is that iniquity remains in the heart.

Due to the "penalty being paid" under Penal Substitution it cannot be "made due again" thus if it has been paid for on your behalf then there is no sin you can do which would forfeit your right standing before God (which is what the wolves commonly teach) which practically implies that you now have a license to sin. This license to sin is often covered up by alluding that "you SHOULD NOT sin." Thus the cessation of sin is relegated as OPTIONAL because in the mind salvation is merely forensic in nature and is totally disconnected from the deeds done in the body.

4. Penal Substitution completely negates the release from the bondage of sin. Under Penal Substitution salvation is merely "being set free from condemnation" as opposed to "being set free from condemnation and bondage." Penal Substitution gives people a false assurance of salvation whilst they remain in bondage to their sins. That is why those beholden to this error take so much offense to the message of "go and sin no more" because in their minds "going and sinning no more" has NOTHING to do with salvation, to them that would be "adding to the finished work of Christ on the cross" (ie. adding to the Penal Substitution). To imply that "going and sinning no more" is related to "being saved" is basically a direct attack upon their assurance of salvation. Thus another dangerous fruit of this doctrine is revealed and that is that this "assurance" serves as an ANTIDOTE to the TRUTH. The true Gospel of repentance proven by deeds and how it connects with an obedient trusting faith in Jesus Christ is then rejected in the mind.

5. Penal Substitution logically necessitates that Jesus died for only those who would be saved. Hence the atonement must be limited under this system. If Penal Substitution is true then Jesus could not have "paid the price" for all men because if He did then universal salvation would be true. For those who hold to Penal Substitution, to deny this would mean that they believe God pours out His wrath for the same sins twice, which in turn would deny their eternal security doctrine. The logical outcome of the Penal Substitution doctrine is that Jesus died ONLY for the elect because if He died for everyone then everyone would be saved. The Reformers rejected universalism and therefore held to the Limited Atonement view (L in TULIP).

5. If the sins of all men were literally transferred to the account of Jesus then He would not have been without spot. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus offered Himself without spot to God. If Penal Substitution is true then Jesus was spotted with sin when He offered Himself.

zone · Jan 29, 2013

Skinski7 said:

IS THE WRATH OF GOD COMING UPON THE WORLD FOR SIN?

IS GOD WRATHFUL?
DOES HE HATE SIN?

HOW DID HE DEAL WITH YOUR SIN PROBLEM?

ARE YOU UNDER CONDEMNATION?

WHY ARE YOU CONDEMNING OTHERS?

"33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword ? OR SKINSKI?

Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12So then, brothers,d we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sonse of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beh against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

zone · Jan 29, 2013

Skinski7 said:

apparently SKINSKI AND TOMMY AND DESARIO ARE...

but no one else.

no, ALL others are under condemnation.

not you though, just a poor lowly sinner whom God had mercy on and you don't know why.

maybe it's because you stopped sinning so He could have mercy on you.

but that doesn't match this:

Skinski7 said:

because you are A PELAGIAN.

and a heretic.

and a scatterer.

zone · Jan 29, 2013

anyone who wants to match SKINSKI'S theology and soteriology to a T....

go here:

A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing: How Charles Finney's Theology Ravaged the Evangelical Movement < click

zone · Jan 29, 2013

Skinski7 said:

YOU IGNORANT MAN.

Definition of IGNORANT
a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified

NOT ONE PERSON HAS EVER SAID JESUS BECAME A SINNER.
JESUS NEVER SINNED. HE WAS NOT GUILTY.

HE WAS INNOCENT.

CAN YOU READ?

not without the Spirit you can't - you don't have the Spirit!
John told us WHY.

Pelagian!

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

DOES GOD HATE SIN?

WHY WOULD HE MAKE INNOCENT JESUS TO BE SIN?

DID JESUS SUFFER?

WAS SIN PUNISHED?

MUST SIN BE PUNISHED?

HOW DID GOD DO IT?

TELL ME GENIUS.

Elin · Jan 29, 2013

Skinski7 said:

"He did it (presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement) to demonstrate his justice at the present time."

God demonstrated his justice on the sins which were left unpunished (passed over in the OT) by presenting Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement (reparation, amends) for the sins of those OT believers.

And not only for the sins of the OT believers, but also for the sins of the NT believers.

justice = merited punishment

for = substitution

Passed over = merited punishment (justice) not administered

atonement= reparation, amends to justice by serving its sentence/punishment

You do not address how God's presentation of Jesus as a sacrifice of reparation, amends
demonstrates God's justice on the sins passed over (justice not admininstered at the time),
as stated in Ro 3:25.

Your argument against the plain meaning of Ro 3:25 is without merit.

SarahM777 · Jan 29, 2013

1 Peter 2

[SUP]21 [/SUP]To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[SUP][e][/SUP]

[SUP]23 [/SUP]When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. [SUP]24 [/SUP]“He himself bore our sins”in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”[SUP]25 [/SUP]For “you were like sheep going astray,”[SUP][f][/SUP] but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Isaiah 53

53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By oppression[SUP][a][/SUP] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[SUP][c][/SUP] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[SUP][d][/SUP] and be satisfied[SUP][e][/SUP];
by his knowledge[SUP][f][/SUP] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[SUP][g][/SUP]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[SUP][h][/SUP]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

How much clearer does God have to make it that Jesus was PUNISHED to bring us peace? How much clearer does He have to make it that Jesus took our sins upon Himself?

Grandpa · Jan 29, 2013

Romans 5:17-19
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

rauleetoe · Jan 29, 2013

Skinski7 said:

I liken it to this verse...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no forensic transfer of righteousness. We are literally MADE RIGHTEOUS by being IN HIM.

In other words we ABIDE IN CHRIST and the LIGHT OF GOD is MANIFESTED THROUGH OUR BEING because we are in SUBMISSION TO THE SPIRIT.

That is why John could say this...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If righteousness was "forensically transferred" then John could not have said that "he that doeth righteousness is righteous" because DOING would have nothing to do with it.

Everything that Jesus taught was about DOING.

Jesus said DO...

Mat_12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It is in the DOING that true righteousness is produced.

FAITH = DOING. Read Hebrews 11 for in every example the faith is ACTIVE. It is not passive trust. Faith is DOING what God tells you to do.

The human soul is purified through DOING.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

If there is no doing then the heart is not made pure. If the heart is not made pure then there is no faith working by love and thus there can be no true manifest righteousness. The forensic transfer is a myth. God literally MAKES PEOPLE RIGHTEOUS by purifying the hearts of those who OBEY HIM.

Salvation is in YIELDING TO GOD. Hence we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Faith being the dynamic principle by which we put the grace of God into effectual use. Hence we WORK TOGETHER with God. That is why DOING is so key. If there is no doing then the grace of God is received to no benefit for no heart purity results.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

So I have no problem with 2Cor 5:21. It makes perfect sense to me. What 2Cor 5:21 DOES NOT SAY though is anything about a judicial transfer. Look at the verse again...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Does that verse really say that the righteousness of Christ is forensically credited to your account and that your sins are credited to Jesus and that He bore the wrath of God in your place? It doesn't say anything like that. Yet that is the best verse these heretics have which they twist into trying to support this dangerous doctrine.

This is the danger of a belief in a mere forensic imputed Righteousness. Christ died so we can become like him,and he even said that he who believes in him,the works he does,they will do,and even greater!
For many it is just easier to appeal to a mere forensic imputed righteousness..its the easy route, so they can return to their sunday christian sinfull ways.
I am not saying all do this, but I have seen a trend of many who wish to be 'relevant' and palatable..they do the things non believers in the world do, they have no conviction regarding anything as the non believers in the world do, come to think of it..You would not even know that they were not 'separate' and set apart, why is that? Because they're just like the heathen they claim to be set apart from. Their actions and lifestyles prove this.

rauleetoe · Jan 29, 2013

zone said:

IS THE WRATH OF GOD COMING UPON THE WORLD FOR SIN?

IS GOD WRATHFUL?
DOES HE HATE SIN?

HOW DID HE DEAL WITH YOUR SIN PROBLEM?

ARE YOU UNDER CONDEMNATION?

WHY ARE YOU CONDEMNING OTHERS?

"33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword ? OR SKINSKI?

Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12So then, brothers,d we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sonse of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beh against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.i 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Why are you feeling condemned because no one said that the gospel is 'go and keep on sinning'? What exactly is wrong with actually walking the walk and not just giving God and others lip service..maybe in your bible studies,and when you 'fellowship' it is encouraged and expected for one to play church and be disingenuous, but this is a matter of salvation or damnation here. No time to play church. You are either, A) of him..you walk the walk talk the talk, you live a life that represents that you have repented and bear the fruit of repentance in your life by the bundles good works! and Praise God,you are secure because you walk with him orrrr.. B) you deceive yourself into thinking that grace and the belief of a gracious and loving God is the one mere sufficient thing one has to do, and that lifestyle choices can be put on the back burner..after all, who can live for God they say! So a mere systematic theology will do for you,and some christianese lip service to God and to all those around you. Fool others, you may be successfull at, but God..well, he is smarter than that and i doubt you will be very successfull in doing so. That said, let's appeal to scripture shall we? what does James say...show me your faith without works,and I will show you faith that works!

james 2:18-26 read it sometime. It should be in your ESV lutheran study Bible I am sure.

Oh and one more thing zone, Drop the caps by the way please. Its called pressing the caps lock a second time..not needed.

BarlyGurl · Jan 29, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

here we go again. I was hoping no one would respond,, but since they did

I guess all the blood shed in the OT of millions of animals for atonement meant nothing. I guess when God said without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness (of sin). Thus I guess the lamb of God, who came and shed his blood for us means absolutely nothing.

we might as well throw the whole bible out the door. it is useless. If what skinski keeps preaching is true!

DOUBLE AMEN

rauleetoe · Jan 29, 2013

Tommy4Christ said:

I think penal sub has been covered well on some of these posts, its a false teaching that makes the death of Christ more of a covering for a false sin nature. An offering or substitute.
An offering or substitute!

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The death of Christ is not something you want to get wrong, but there are many false teachings on this today, teaching Jesus became sin on the cross, thus God poured out His wrath on Him, as He became sin and suffered our deserved punishment, often called penal substitution.
Jesus was clearly a sin offering, used many times in the book of Isaiah, as He was sinless, and spotless without blemish, offered up as an offering for the forgiveness of all our past sins!
Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation( an atoning victim) through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
Jesus could not have been our substitute and a sin offering at the same time, it’s either one or the other, one declares us righteous while we are still sinners, and the other offers the sinner a choice, which is to repent, as Jesus commanded to all, Luke 13-3, where we become the living sacrifice, by touching His blood as stated in Romans Ch 12. As this living sacrifice we then walk the crucified life, Gal 2-20, obeying God from the heart, and abstaining from the indulgences of this world. 1 John 2-15-17!
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
We then become the living sacrifice as we die with Him in repentance, and now walk in newness of life, cleansed and purged from all sin and defilement.
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience (SIN) from dead works to serve the living God?
If you believe you come into the kingdom, through the Billy Graham, repeat after me sinners prayer, then just receive the package deal that says Jesus took your place, is your righteousness and substitute, you do nothing such as repent first, and I mean repentance on the scale of Nineveh, then please check out what the early saints taught about the atonement.
Jesus was a one-time sin offering, and He came to ransom all mankind from the corrupting influence of sin! He died on our behalf, not in our place!
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
He came with a purpose, and that was not to save the lost world IN their sins, Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! But out of them, to take them away by opening their eyes,
Act 26:18 in order to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness (repent) to light and from the authority of Satan to God, so that they may receive remission (forgiveness) of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
The whole purpose of the atonement wasn’t to provide a covering for ongoing sin and disobedience, but a plan set forth by God, for mankind to reconcile himself to God, 2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are the Messiah's representatives, as though God were pleading through us. We plead on the Messiah's behalf: "Be reconciled to God! Touching the blood of Christ, brought through His ability and great need to repent and stop sinning, as commanded by God!
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Now as we walk in newness of life, which is the crucified life, free from the bondages of sin, that can only come through the clearing of repentance, guarding our heart from sin and temptation, set free in reality not some fake provision or substitute that never occurred. So you can see Jesus never became sin, He came to destroy its influence on us, as we come to the mercy seat, through brokenness brought on through repentance!
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, (appeared) that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So if you are still in bondage to sin, and worldliness, and think Jesus did it all for you in the sense He took your place (substituted His righteousness for yours) then you have a big problem with what the word of God clearly teaches on the death of Christ!
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
He came to redeem us from sin, not cover us IN them, and to purify unto Himself a remnant of devout followers, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, separated from a dark and perverse world, that is void of truth and heading for destruction!
Tommy 7-25-12
PS. When the word talks about sin, there must be a distinction (separation) of sins that lead to death, and those that do not! Galatians 5-19-21, 1 Cor 6-9-10, Rev 22-15, lists some sins that if not completely repented of lead to spiritual death! Plus many more severe warnings, that is that willful, deliberate, presumptuous sins against God, leads to death! Other mistakes, poor judgments, faults, misplaced zeal, etc., have no bearing on sins that lead to death, unless they work into guile, hate, envy, lust, and pride etc. There must be a balance between willful deliberate(pre-planned) sin, and all our daily faults, struggles and mistakes, that are not sins that lead to death, but also must be kept in check, so they DO NOT lead us into temptation, where the will gives in, is drawn away and enticed, which then gives birth to sin and death!
It’s a process, you don’t walk along and fall into fornication, or drunkenness, or get so upset or angry, that eventually leads to violence and profanity, unless you believe all sin is the same, thus making those who claim to do what is right before God a liar, self-righteous and being dishonest!
All the vile sins must have been crucified with Christ, through repentance, or else the old man is still alive and well, maybe subdued for a time as you change some things in your life, but if you are still struggling with these sins, and consider them a normal practice in the life of a Christian, then you must go and do your first works , Rev 2-5, crucify your flesh with Christ, Gal 2-20, and walk a life pleasing to God, by a heart made pure by obeying His word, through the power of His spirit, now dwelling in a cleansed and purged vessel, ready to receive His implanted word(truth) with great meekness and humility, that comes only through a truly broken and repentant heart!

Amen Tommy, sadly I believe this is falling on deaf ears. Then again the Word says to Preach the Word be in season and out of season, for a time will come when they will collect teachers that tell them what they want to hear and will 'not' listen to sound teaching. Do not be discouraged, be encouraged. Man will have no excuse, they truly won't. You just keep on with the message of repentance. It is Biblical.

Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

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