POLL: The Deity of Christ

[Elin]

So you do not believer the early church erred at all (or should be criticised) by failing to make official doctrine for 300 years after Christ died at Calvary what you say is the core of the christian faith and heresy not to believe.
I find that strange

The only thing strange is your ignorance of the fact that this has been Christian faith since Jn 1:1, 13:

". . .and the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh. . ."

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

1corinthians 3:19-22

I'm beginning to get the impression you don't get the basic concept of humor.

 

[Elin]

The early Church believed and taught the deity of Christ. But, this is really irrelevant. It is the written text of scripture, not the Church that is the standard of truth. Truth is in the grammatical structure of scripture.

So from your reply I assume you do not believe it is incumbent on the church to make official doctrine what you say is the core of the christian faith.
I believe we are led into truth by the holy spirit, indeed people who gave read many different translations of the bible have come to understand spiritual truth. But then
Jesus praised his father for hiding these things from the wise and learned andvrevealing them to little children luke 10:31
I doubt they understood much of grammatical structure of words

Absurd. . .

If they spoke them, they understood them, or they would not have been able to use them. . .

 

[oldhermit]

Jesus prayed to his father that they (the believers) may be one as he and his father are one john 17:22 How can believers be as one? Only through the Holy Spirit phil2:2. It is the holy spirit who now fully resides in Christ. For he told us in john 17 how he and the father are one

Yes, this is is true but, you are talking about two different realms of reality. The fact that the H.S. indwells the Christian and thereby establishes our unity with God does not mean we can apply this same line of reasoning to the unseen realm as say that the H.S also continues to indwell Jesus. The Bible does not tell us this.

 

[prove-all]

Don't forget

". . .and the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh. . ." (Jn 1:1, 13)

in the man, Jesus of Nazareth, God the Son, and second of the three divine persons in the one true God.

can't forget the word was [with] God also before time.

God and the Word became the Father and Son now.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


just curious where the Holy spirts throne ever was or ever will be?
If it was a 3rd person would not the holy spirit have one,?

God and Christ have thrones, also many others but not him.

also how rude of the letter wrighters not to give greetings to the holy spirit,
like in the N.T. the Father and Son are mentioned in most every greetings.

also Jesus was sired by God, begotten, first of [many] brothern,

as the word was [with] God , he gave up his title, glory,became, and was passed in temptation,
could of lost what he gave, but because he loved us first, a suffering lamb, followed God in everything.

but now on the

hand of Gods throne, glory returned,[waiting for his turn] to rule Gods way.

If the holy spirit was a 3rd person, and not the very power of God,
then he would be called the son of the holy spirit, but it is not,

He is called the Son of God, and scripture can not be broken.
​

the word used Gods power , as directed to create from nothing.​

​

 

[Elin]

The first assumption of mine that you would have to break, is that Logos is in fact the Holy Spirit. If you can find a verse to counter this understanding, then I will be able to move on from my position back to orthodoxy.

Consider carefully. . .

God's Word is his almighty breath (spirit),
and in the OT, his Word and his Spirit are parallel figures.

The speech (Word) and breath (Spirit) of God appear in creation (Ge 1:2ff, Ps 33:6).

The NT reveals that the divine Word of Ge 1:3, 9, 24, Ps 33:6, 9; Is 55:11 is a person (Jn 1:1-18).

Jesus teaches that the divine Spirit (breath) of Ge 1:2; Job 26:13, 312:8, 33:4, 34:14-15, Ps 33:6 is a person
(see Jn 20:22, and Ac 2:2 where God's Spirit (breath)--is as the blowing of a mighty wind).

Jesus teaches the deity of the personal Holy Spirit by calling him the "holy" Spirit,
just as he spoke of the "holy" Father (Jn 17:11).
Holy was the OT adjective for expressing the God-ness of God,
as Lord was the Greek OT name and title denoting the Godhood of God.
And just as the name and title, Lord, of the Greek OT is used in the NT chiefly not of the Father,
but of the Son;
so the adjective, holy, is mainly applied in the NT, not to the Father, but to the Spirit.

The NT reveals that the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is likewise God,
both separate persons from God the Father (Mt 3:16-17, 28:19).

 

[Elin]

They cannot break your first assumption for the logos os the holy spirit, and
Christ and his father are one in that spirit. Jesus prayed the believers would be one as he and his father are one. Believers can only be as one in the holy spirit, there is no other way.

Nope. . .not in the NT.

God the Father and God the Son are not one in God the Holy Spirit.

Quite the contrary.

God the Holy Spirit issues forth from within God the Father (Jn 15:26) and God the Son.

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and the spirit of the Son (Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6),
the Father and the Son are not in, nor within, the Holy Spirit.

 

[prove-all]

I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground,

by [my great power] and by my outstretched arm,

and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.


the Spirit is the very power of God, God gave this power to Jesus,

with no measure, even from the womb.​

 

[Elin]

For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God for God gives the spirit without limit john 3:34

Keeping in mind that when Christ is involved, the human man is involved, not just the divine God.

God gave Jesus the Spirit without measure, not as a container to possess, but as a fountain to give forth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground,

by [my great power] and by my outstretched arm,

and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.


the Spirit is the very power of God, God gave this power to Jesus,

with no measure, even from the womb.​

Actually, the spirit did not enter until his baptism. so this is wrong..

 

[Elin]

Personally I have a great deal of trouble with the term essence as it is usually applied to God in theological circles.

OK, let's stay with substance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

can't forget the word was [with] God also before time.

God and the Word became the Father and Son now.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


just curious where the Holy spirts throne ever was or ever will be?
If it was a 3rd person would not the holy spirit have one,?

God and Christ have thrones, also many others but not him.

also how rude of the letter wrighters not to give greetings to the holy spirit,
like in the N.T. the Father and Son are mentioned in most every greetings.

also Jesus was sired by God, begotten, first of [many] brothern,

as the word was [with] God , he gave up his title, glory,became, and was passed in temptation,
could of lost what he gave, but because he loved us first, a suffering lamb, followed God in everything.

but now on the

hand of Gods throne, glory returned,[waiting for his turn] to rule Gods way.

If the holy spirit was a 3rd person, and not the very power of God,
then he would be called the son of the holy spirit, but it is not,

He is called the Son of God, and scripture can not be broken.
​

the word used Gods power , as directed to create from nothing.​

​

You assume the HS wants a throne. That would be a major assumption.

What makes God God is love.. They are not concerned wiht self. that is why do what they do. ​

 

[GuessWho]

Secularhermit,

You are a joker ))). At first, you played the RCC card as in "the roman-catholics did it, they are responsible for the manipulation of the copies of the New Testament ",etc. etc. You saw nobody paid attention to this ignorant comment and your next move is ...DISCREDITING SAINT PAUL!!!! Man, you are ridiculous. I am literally laughing! I now know that you are a joker. Not very intelligent, you should have stick to the "RCC is evil "refrain. You might have got some attention.

 

[SolidGround]

Consider carefully. . .

God's Word is his almighty breath (spirit),
and in the OT, his Word and his Spirit are parallel figures.

The speech (Word) and breath (Spirit) of God appear in creation (Ge 1:2ff, Ps 33:6).

The NT reveals that the divine Word of Ge 1:3, 9, 24, Ps 33:6, 9; Is 55:11 is a person (Jn 1:1-18).

Jesus teaches that the divine Spirit (breath) of Ge 1:2; Job 26:13, 312:8, 33:4, 34:14-15, Ps 33:6 is a person
(see Jn 20:22, and Ac 2:2 where God's Spirit (breath)--is as the blowing of a mighty wind).

Jesus teaches the deity of the personal Holy Spirit by calling him the "holy" Spirit,
just as he spoke of the "holy" Father (Jn 17:11).
Holy was the OT adjective for expressing the God-ness of God,
as Lord was the Greek OT name and title denoting the Godhood of God.
And just as the name and title, Lord, of the Greek OT is used in the NT chiefly not of the Father,
but of the Son;
so the adjective, holy, is mainly applied in the NT, not to the Father, but to the Spirit.

The NT reveals that the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is likewise God,
both separate persons from God the Father (Mt 3:16-17, 28:19).

Now you are beginning to get to the heart of it.
If you agree that Logos/the Word is in fact the Holy Spirit,
then you are saying that Christ is also the Holy Spirit, because Logos is Christ.
Binitarian. Semi-modal. The Image of the Living God being the mode.
Christ within us, is the Spirit.
Now WE are to be His Image, as the Body of Christ.

 

[Elin]

The NT presents the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as separate persons, with separate titles and separate functions. . . and it is not for us to alter to suit our own fancies.

If this is true, then in what sense do you not have 3 Gods?

"Distinct" and "separate" are synonyms.

Your distinction between them is without a difference.

The Trinity are separate in their personhood, not in their Godhood. . .three persons in one God.

God does not have a single personality, he has a single essence, substance.

And that is?

Deity, divinity.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

If this is true, then in what sense do you not have 3 Gods?

We do. But only if you attempt to understand God in human terms, which is your major error.

 

[Elin]

where is it written only youre orthodox view is the only way,and required to believe the trinity,

I can not find it in this [Christian site] rules, does that mean non believers are not allowed?

That means one is not allowed to deny the deity of Christ Jesus.

 

[oldhermit]

For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God for God gives the spirit without limit john 3:34

I must have overlooked this post earlier. The reason Jesus speaks the word of God is because this function corresponds to his position within the triadic unity. He has always functioned as the communicator of Gods will to man. Jesus is both the conduit of communication and the active cause of all things.

 

[prove-all]

Actually, the spirit did not enter until his baptism. so this is wrong..

-Jesus had Gods power with no measure, given from conception.

15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,
and shall drink neither (wine) nor strong drink;
and he shall be (filled with) the Holy Ghost, (even from his mother's womb).


34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
(for God giveth) (not the Spirit by measure unto him).


35And the angel answered and said unto her, (The Holy Ghost) shall come upon thee,
and (the power of the Highest) shall overshadow thee: therefore also
that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called (the Son of God).

the dove was a sign for John fulfilled

 

[oldhermit]

Now you are beginning to get to the heart of it.
If you agree that Logos/the Word is in fact the Holy Spirit,
then you are saying that Christ is also the Holy Spirit, because Logos is Christ.
Binitarian. Semi-modal. The Image of the Living God being the mode.
Christ within us, is the Spirit.
Now WE are to be His Image, as the Body of Christ.

This is not what John 1 says about the Logos. How conversant are you with NT Greek?