Praying in Tongues

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,080
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Thanks, my understanding remains teh same. It seems when the Apostles first spoke in the Holy Spirit to the many nationalities of the people, all understood dthem no matter what their mother tongue. Whether this is a gift that reoccurs or not, I will not say, but it was a gift to the Twelve minus one.

The gift of praying in tongues will endure until there no longer is confusion of tongues, and the gift of interpretting also Tongues will cease but not before languages cease .

When tonguescease our Father will return to all a language pure and spokenby all.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,315
442
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Well, I dont' have a problem with that wolf. But, wouldn't it be better to trust the Word?

To those who teach cessationism, if this is so, why did the Apostles lay hands on others to receive the baptism, and what showed them they had received? Was it not tongues and prophecy? Not preaching....speaking out of your Spirit by the power of Holy Spirit.

And so did others in Acts.
I trust the Word and thats why i dont trust those teachings. I Met in my Early christian Years Member of pentecostal Church. And I was Open for that what they told. I prayed to See it is right ore not. And I became strange feel
It appears to be Paul's desire that everyone spoke in Tongues. And to also prophesy.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


Paul even boasts about speaking in Tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


Paul even explains the necessity of speaking in Tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:22
tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


Jesus even explains those speaking in Tongues is a sign of a believer/follower of Him.

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


Another verse where Paul encourages to speak in Tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


This verse claims Tongues is a sign of those who are actually filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.




This is Biblical Proof that a true believer filled with the Holy Spirit will indeed speak in Tongues. And Paul clearly was teaching throughout the New Testament period to speak in Tongues. And for you to claim there are no scriptures to back the necessity of speaking in Tongues, means you did not study hard enough. But I did the work for you, and now you should understand, if you have not yet spoke in Tongues, you most likely are not filled with the Holy Ghost/Spirit of God!!
Yes, according your statement no christian was filled with the Holy Spirit before 1900.
This is what i meant. I should serious following such a teaching. 1. COR. 14.30 shows clearly that not all christians receiving the gift of speaking in tongues, as they not receiving the gift of healing.

Acts 2 ore 10 ore 8 ore 19 you can see if you read it as that what it was. An sign for the jews that the promissed Holy Spirit came and no human beeing (gentile, Samaritian, disciples of John the baptist) is excludet. He came for all and began a new chapter of history. The church.
I know that you must take it as proof for your teaching, that those which are filled with the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues.
But this is eisegese and creating a doctrine which I cant find in the bible.
And this doctrine began in the year 1900
Before you cant find this teaching worldwide.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
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Yes, according your statement no christian was filled with the Holy Spirit before 1900.
This is what i meant. I should serious following such a teaching. 1. COR. 14.30 shows clearly that not all christians receiving the gift of speaking in tongues, as they not receiving the gift of healing.

Acts 2 ore 10 ore 8 ore 19 you can see if you read it as that what it was. An sign for the jews that the promissed Holy Spirit came and no human beeing (gentile, Samaritian, disciples of John the baptist) is excludet. He came for all and began a new chapter of history. The church.
I know that you must take it as proof for your teaching, that those which are filled with the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues.
But this is eisegese and creating a doctrine which I cant find in the bible.
And this doctrine began in the year 1900
Before you cant find this teaching worldwide.


According to the verses I posted (1 by Jesus and the rest by Paul), they make it clear people were speaking in Tongues around 40 A.D., or just after Jesus ascended back to Heaven.

Pertaining to the doctrine you are speaking of, I believe you are talking about the Essenes, which is another group of Pharisees who have some interesting scriptures they claim to be authentic, and also claim to follow Jesus, but don't believe Jesus was actually divine (God).
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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According to the verses I posted (1 by Jesus and the rest by Paul), they make it clear people were speaking in Tongues around 40 A.D., or just after Jesus ascended back to Heaven.

Pertaining to the doctrine you are speaking of, I believe you are talking about the Essenes, which is another group of Pharisees who have some interesting scriptures they claim to be authentic, and also claim to follow Jesus, but don't believe Jesus was actually divine (God).
No, i mean the pentecostal movement which started in 1900 in Topeka, USA.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
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No, i mean the pentecostal movement which started in 1900 in Topeka, USA.


But I actually did find proof that this began around 40 A.D. or about, that is 1,860 years before the Pentecostal movement. If from the 1st century until the Pentecostal movement no one preached on speaking in Tongues, that is because they obviously did not understand scripture. Because Jesus and Paul are specific and clear that Speaking in Tongues is a sign that someone is filled with the Holy Spirit. If the Pentecostal movement revived the teaching of Jesus and Paul concerning speaking in Tongues as a sign that someone is filled with the Holy Spirit, then they clearly had a firm grasp and knowledge of what Jesus and Paul were claiming. Just because this practice stopped for 1,860 years, does not mean that God stopped it, it means that the leaders of the church back then were clueless. And it means that the false teachings of men were literally quenching the Holy Spirit!!

I do like the commonality between the Day of Pentecost and the beginning of the Pentecostal Movement, because both instances are surrounded and sparked by the power of speaking in Tongues. And scripture does make the claim that prophesies, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit end at the Second Coming of Christ. So what the Pentecostal Movement actually did, was to accept the Word of God at face value and believed it as a fact. And that follows directly how Jesus taught us to do.

Therefore, I see no mistake being made by the Pentecostal Movement in this matter. The mistake was made when men thought they could dictate God, and they chose to ignore scripture. And if that cost them their salvation, I am positive at the day of Judgement and for all eternity, that is the one decision they will think back on and wished they never made!!
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,315
442
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But I actually did find proof that this began around 40 A.D. or about, that is 1,860 years before the Pentecostal movement. If from the 1st century until the Pentecostal movement no one preached on speaking in Tongues, that is because they obviously did not understand scripture. Because Jesus and Paul are specific and clear that Speaking in Tongues is a sign that someone is filled with the Holy Spirit. If the Pentecostal movement revived the teaching of Jesus and Paul concerning speaking in Tongues as a sign that someone is filled with the Holy Spirit, then they clearly had a firm grasp and knowledge of what Jesus and Paul were claiming. Just because this practice stopped for 1,860 years, does not mean that God stopped it, it means that the leaders of the church back then were clueless. And it means that the false teachings of men were literally quenching the Holy Spirit!!

I do like the commonality between the Day of Pentecost and the beginning of the Pentecostal Movement, because both instances are surrounded and sparked by the power of speaking in Tongues. And scripture does make the claim that prophesies, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit end at the Second Coming of Christ. So what the Pentecostal Movement actually did, was to accept the Word of God at face value and believed it as a fact. And that follows directly how Jesus taught us to do.

Therefore, I see no mistake being made by the Pentecostal Movement in this matter. The mistake was made when men thought they could dictate God, and they chose to ignore scripture. And if that cost them their salvation, I am positive at the day of Judgement and for all eternity, that is the one decision they will think back on and wished they never made!!
I repeat. According your claim. No christians before 1900 were filled with the Holy Spirit. And also no christian out of the pentecostal and charismatic movement is filled with the Holy Spirit.?
On the other side with the Holy Spirit filled people falling backward to the ground, laughing uncontrolable, acting and noising like animals, accepting false teachings like: Mormons, RCC, New Apostolic Church, Oneess Pentecostals, whealth and health movement,
Really, this is no proof for me that this is what God wants.
 

Spiral2

Active member
Jul 25, 2018
77
126
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England
I repeat. According your claim. No christians before 1900 were filled with the Holy Spirit. And also no christian out of the pentecostal and charismatic movement is filled with the Holy Spirit.?
On the other side with the Holy Spirit filled people falling backward to the ground, laughing uncontrolable, acting and noising like animals, accepting false teachings like: Mormons, RCC, New Apostolic Church, Oneess Pentecostals, whealth and health movement,
Really, this is no proof for me that this is what God wants.
The Holy Spirit is part of the trinity. God the Father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit. It was there since creation and before. It has always has been there. Has always been working, through the creation and on.
You access the Holy Spirit through Jesus. Jesus is the way. With God nothing is out of order. Everything is for a purpose. Unfortunately some humans ... a lot of humans , try to do things themselves either to please others or to gain something and of course get it all wrong. This causes a lot of damage. Some get caught up with it. I have seen my own fare share of ladies holding their skirts together as they 'fall down'.
People take scripture out of contexts like the snakes and handling them... need I say any more on that. The devil is very clever and crafty. Sometimes people do start off following Jesus but then become lost . Either they get a lot of attention and pride gets in the way and they forget to keep humble and focused on Jesus, then it all goes wrong. As soon as Peter took his eyes off Jesus and put his mind on the storm and seas raging around him, he started to sink. Jesus put his hand out and Peter held on to it. Jesus placed him back in the boat. It is the same with us. We can not do anything without Jesus. Jesus is the only one who can fight the devil. We can't do it. There fore we need to be in Jesus. Jesus in our hearts.

The Holy Spirit works anywhere, in any country not just in churches but in your own bedroom, during those secret times you should have with God where no one else sees or walking down the street while you pray as well as worship at church. We need to fix our hearts on Jesus only, not on man, and then the Spirit flows and brings Gods word or message or healing ect. The happiness feeling is where people are being released from some bondage. It is a human reaction to a release that has been holding you down for years. The Holy Spirit has the power through the direction of Jesus to heal and release. Being filled with the Holy Spirit means you have firstly some knowledge of who Jesus is , his love for you and others and what he has done for you. Then a humbling of your self before the King of Kings takes place, leaving self gain and pride out side the throne room of God and then He can fill you, equip and use you.

What Jesus has to offer is for everyone. Everyone can seek Jesus. The Holy Spirit gives us joy and hope. The Holy Spirit is used to take off the shackles or take off the scales from our eyes. The Holy Spirit is what gives men/ women the words and the strength to speak about God to the lost or to encourage one another. The Holy Spirit gives us understanding of scripture. The Holy Spirit is what is used for miracles and healing of brokenness, abuse, addictions even today. The Holy Spirit convicts people of wrong doings.The Holy Spirit gives us gifts in hospitality or in remembering scripture or in wisdom to know what to say and in understanding when something is not right and something comes from a bad place. However we need to be aligned with Jesus and open to Him not closed up for this to happen. If you are holding on to those wrong teachings, gripping on to them for dear life with vain and pride, baggage of wrong information and teaching that men have placed in our understanding, weighing us down and we probably all do as adults, it has to be dealt with first. The Holy Spirit has the power to deal with that but you need to allow him.
With Jesus you know it is true. You know because something amazing has happened to you, some how you have been reached. You had a dream, someone had a word for you, or you saw or heard something which cemented your heart to Jesus and that He is the way and you run to Him with open arms . That is the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus. It happened in bible times, we see through the books of the bible of men and women's lives. It is happening today.People are being saved and healed today. It will happen tomorrow. It will happen when we are in heaven worshiping Jesus. God bless you
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,315
442
83
The Holy Spirit is part of the trinity. God the Father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit. It was there since creation and before. It has always has been there. Has always been working, through the creation and on.
You access the Holy Spirit through Jesus. Jesus is the way. With God nothing is out of order. Everything is for a purpose. Unfortunately some humans ... a lot of humans , try to do things themselves either to please others or to gain something and of course get it all wrong. This causes a lot of damage. Some get caught up with it. I have seen my own fare share of ladies holding their skirts together as they 'fall down'.
People take scripture out of contexts like the snakes and handling them... need I say any more on that. The devil is very clever and crafty. Sometimes people do start off following Jesus but then become lost . Either they get a lot of attention and pride gets in the way and they forget to keep humble and focused on Jesus, then it all goes wrong. As soon as Peter took his eyes off Jesus and put his mind on the storm and seas raging around him, he started to sink. Jesus put his hand out and Peter held on to it. Jesus placed him back in the boat. It is the same with us. We can not do anything without Jesus. Jesus is the only one who can fight the devil. We can't do it. There fore we need to be in Jesus. Jesus in our hearts.

The Holy Spirit works anywhere, in any country not just in churches but in your own bedroom, during those secret times you should have with God where no one else sees or walking down the street while you pray as well as worship at church. We need to fix our hearts on Jesus only, not on man, and then the Spirit flows and brings Gods word or message or healing ect. The happiness feeling is where people are being released from some bondage. It is a human reaction to a release that has been holding you down for years. The Holy Spirit has the power through the direction of Jesus to heal and release. Being filled with the Holy Spirit means you have firstly some knowledge of who Jesus is , his love for you and others and what he has done for you. Then a humbling of your self before the King of Kings takes place, leaving self gain and pride out side the throne room of God and then He can fill you, equip and use you.

What Jesus has to offer is for everyone. Everyone can seek Jesus. The Holy Spirit gives us joy and hope. The Holy Spirit is used to take off the shackles or take off the scales from our eyes. The Holy Spirit is what gives men/ women the words and the strength to speak about God to the lost or to encourage one another. The Holy Spirit gives us understanding of scripture. The Holy Spirit is what is used for miracles and healing of brokenness, abuse, addictions even today. The Holy Spirit convicts people of wrong doings.The Holy Spirit gives us gifts in hospitality or in remembering scripture or in wisdom to know what to say and in understanding when something is not right and something comes from a bad place. However we need to be aligned with Jesus and open to Him not closed up for this to happen. If you are holding on to those wrong teachings, gripping on to them for dear life with vain and pride, baggage of wrong information and teaching that men have placed in our understanding, weighing us down and we probably all do as adults, it has to be dealt with first. The Holy Spirit has the power to deal with that but you need to allow him.
With Jesus you know it is true. You know because something amazing has happened to you, some how you have been reached. You had a dream, someone had a word for you, or you saw or heard something which cemented your heart to Jesus and that He is the way and you run to Him with open arms . That is the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus. It happened in bible times, we see through the books of the bible of men and women's lives. It is happening today.People are being saved and healed today. It will happen tomorrow. It will happen when we are in heaven worshiping Jesus. God bless you
Thank you. This is what I believe.
This why I dont believe in pentecostal and charismatic doctrines.
God bless you.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,024
5,458
113
The Holy Spirit is part of the trinity. God the Father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit. It was there since creation and before. It has always has been there. Has always been working, through the creation and on.
You access the Holy Spirit through Jesus. Jesus is the way. With God nothing is out of order. Everything is for a purpose. Unfortunately some humans ... a lot of humans , try to do things themselves either to please others or to gain something and of course get it all wrong. This causes a lot of damage. Some get caught up with it. I have seen my own fare share of ladies holding their skirts together as they 'fall down'.
People take scripture out of contexts like the snakes and handling them... need I say any more on that. The devil is very clever and crafty. Sometimes people do start off following Jesus but then become lost . Either they get a lot of attention and pride gets in the way and they forget to keep humble and focused on Jesus, then it all goes wrong. As soon as Peter took his eyes off Jesus and put his mind on the storm and seas raging around him, he started to sink. Jesus put his hand out and Peter held on to it. Jesus placed him back in the boat. It is the same with us. We can not do anything without Jesus. Jesus is the only one who can fight the devil. We can't do it. There fore we need to be in Jesus. Jesus in our hearts.

The Holy Spirit works anywhere, in any country not just in churches but in your own bedroom, during those secret times you should have with God where no one else sees or walking down the street while you pray as well as worship at church. We need to fix our hearts on Jesus only, not on man, and then the Spirit flows and brings Gods word or message or healing ect. The happiness feeling is where people are being released from some bondage. It is a human reaction to a release that has been holding you down for years. The Holy Spirit has the power through the direction of Jesus to heal and release. Being filled with the Holy Spirit means you have firstly some knowledge of who Jesus is , his love for you and others and what he has done for you. Then a humbling of your self before the King of Kings takes place, leaving self gain and pride out side the throne room of God and then He can fill you, equip and use you.

What Jesus has to offer is for everyone. Everyone can seek Jesus. The Holy Spirit gives us joy and hope. The Holy Spirit is used to take off the shackles or take off the scales from our eyes. The Holy Spirit is what gives men/ women the words and the strength to speak about God to the lost or to encourage one another. The Holy Spirit gives us understanding of scripture. The Holy Spirit is what is used for miracles and healing of brokenness, abuse, addictions even today. The Holy Spirit convicts people of wrong doings.The Holy Spirit gives us gifts in hospitality or in remembering scripture or in wisdom to know what to say and in understanding when something is not right and something comes from a bad place. However we need to be aligned with Jesus and open to Him not closed up for this to happen. If you are holding on to those wrong teachings, gripping on to them for dear life with vain and pride, baggage of wrong information and teaching that men have placed in our understanding, weighing us down and we probably all do as adults, it has to be dealt with first. The Holy Spirit has the power to deal with that but you need to allow him.
With Jesus you know it is true. You know because something amazing has happened to you, some how you have been reached. You had a dream, someone had a word for you, or you saw or heard something which cemented your heart to Jesus and that He is the way and you run to Him with open arms . That is the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus. It happened in bible times, we see through the books of the bible of men and women's lives. It is happening today.People are being saved and healed today. It will happen tomorrow. It will happen when we are in heaven worshiping Jesus. God bless you
The Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing; therefore, it is appropriate to use "He" rather than "it" in reference to Him. He is not used for anything; He is God, and it is His power that brings about the "miracles" that believers see and experience.

While the Holy Spirit does indeed bring about all the things you mentioned, the absence of any reference to praying or tongues leads me to wonder why you posted it here. Rather it seems that you are associating any "charismatic" activity with the excesses of the Charismatic movement. That's a fallacy... one which is made frequently.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
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I repeat. According your claim. No christians before 1900 were filled with the Holy Spirit. And also no christian out of the pentecostal and charismatic movement is filled with the Holy Spirit.?
On the other side with the Holy Spirit filled people falling backward to the ground, laughing uncontrolable, acting and noising like animals, accepting false teachings like: Mormons, RCC, New Apostolic Church, Oneess Pentecostals, whealth and health movement,
Really, this is no proof for me that this is what God wants.


Let me just point out to you some actual biblical truths. I believe in our Triune God just the same as the rest of us but I see Him in a different light than how most would explain.


Outside the fact that there is no proof anywhere within the Bible that there are 3 separate persons who represent God, I believe "blaspheming" is another proof and key to this.

We can blaspheme the idea of God, blaspheme the person of God embodied as Yeshua and still be able to seek forgiveness. But to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (personal (S)pirit)(the connection to God in us and all true believers) we are damned with no possible chance at forgiveness.

What then makes the personal Holy Spirit of God more precious, that if to claim its nature is demonic, will doom us, when the actual person and idea of God we can get away with it?

It's because the personal Spirit of God, that has the ability to dwell within us, like it dwells within Christ, is the true power of God!! It's the power of God that allowed Him (God) to speak everything into existence. It's our power in God through the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

When we break down the idea of God and the person of Yeshua, we utilize what happened outwardly like Death-Burial-Resurrection-Healing-Casting out Demonic Entities-Turning Water into Wine-Walking on Water-The Wind obeying His Command-anything physical.

But inwardly, where we cannot visibly see, this is all happening by the power of God, which is the personal Holy Spirit of God.

When we see preachers today, who are true and sincere to God, lay hands upon the sick and they become healed...the very Act of Faith enables our power in God through the Holy Spirit to work. We can see outwardly the laying upon hands and the sick become healed, but inwardly, we never see the amount of Faith or the power of God through the Holy Spirit being enabled. We only see the action and the result.

So clearly, blaspheming the idea of God and the person of Yeshua is not actually attacking God. But blaspheming the Holy Spirit, or the actual power of God, is attacking God to a degree it becomes unforgivable. It's the very power of God, known as the Holy Spirit, that is the most precious of all of God's attributes. And to place it equal to the little power of our Adversary, is such an act of defiance, that God Himself literally turns away and refuses to ever get past it!!




Scriptural proof of what I posted:

Matthew 12:

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


Verse 28 shows HOW JESUS is able to cast out demons:

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


So clearly, the POWER we visibly see through the idea of God and person of Jesus, is the (capital S) Spirit (Holy Spirit) of God. And that SAME HOLY SPIRIT/POWER of God lives inside of us.

Do any of us actually realize how much POWER we have living inside of us?

We have the SAME POWER that created the heavens and the earth and all things. The SAME POWER that heals, allowed Christ to walk on water and perform miracles. THAT SAME POWER is LIVING inside of us!! We should be in VICTORY 100% of the time. We should be able to walk past the lost and hopeless and save/heal them IMMEDIATELY!! We should have so much faith we are floating off the ground!! Inside of each one of us, is GOD'S POWER SOURCE, that is now OUR POWER SOURCE through God!!


2 more verses from Matthew 12:

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Jesus in Matthew 12 ADMITS His POWER is from the Spirit of God, and when you equal the POWER of God's Spirit (God's personal POWER SOURCE) to the Adversary, it's over for you permanently!!




Notice:

Verse 28, Jesus calls His POWER SOURCE the Spirit (capital S) of God.

Then in verse 32, Jesus clarifies WHO the Spirit (capital S) of God actually is, none other than the Holy Ghost.

So, the Holy Ghost is not a person, it's the PERSONAL SPIRIT and actual POWER SOURCE of God!!
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
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I repeat. According your claim. No christians before 1900 were filled with the Holy Spirit. And also no christian out of the pentecostal and charismatic movement is filled with the Holy Spirit.?
On the other side with the Holy Spirit filled people falling backward to the ground, laughing uncontrolable, acting and noising like animals, accepting false teachings like: Mormons, RCC, New Apostolic Church, Oneess Pentecostals, whealth and health movement,
Really, this is no proof for me that this is what God wants.

No, I do not believe that "NO CHRISTIANS WERE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" before 1900. I believe there were always people who actually understood scripture and knew what Christ and Paul was claiming. They might have spoke in Tongues in the privacy of their home, they might have only been in a small group setting like a Bible Study Group, but nevertheless, I believe throughout all of time since the ascension of Jesus, people were speaking in Tongues.

The Pentecostal Movement just became a bigger group of people doing it and have been keeping that same formula since.

I know of Baptist and Methodist members who when in the company of Pentecostals speak in Tongues. Some claim their particular denomination frowns upon it, but they were raised Baptist/Methodist and will continue to be as such until they die, but they still believe in speaking in Tongues and do so in the company of like believers.

Yeah, I believe the majority of the groups you have listed like the Mormons, RCC, New Apostolic, wealth/health are actually occultic movements. The Mormons do not believe in the deity of Christ and how Smith claims he was made aware of this movement is done through a magicians trick (I do not ever see God working through magic). The RCC put Mary before God and believe in praying to the dead saints rather than to living God and they believe in rituals (to me, they traded statues of their greco-roman gods for statues of the Apostles and Jesus). The Apostolic movements have been associated with new age using crystals and channeling your inner self (clearly this is a form of witchcraft). And wealth and health are flat out lies since Jesus told us earth was not our home, we would suffer for His name and be hated because the world hated Him first. And the first church example shows people sold what they had and gave it to church and lived very poorly. So I do not buy the health/wealth movement at all, because we are not to put our cares on any of that crap but to put them on Jesus.

As far as the "Oneness Pentecostal Movement," they are following the Bible in the Book of Acts. Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 to baptize in the name of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. In Acts we see Peter, Paul and other Apostles baptizing in Jesus name. Well, they are following what Jesus instructed them to do. Jesus said He came to us in the name of the Father. The Father's name is Yahaweh, and Jesus real name is Yeshua, which means Yahweh's Salvation. So Peter, Paul, and the Apostles who baptized in the name of Yeshua is really baptizing in the name of Yahweh's Salvation (the Father). Jesus (Yeshua) said He is sending the Holy Spirit to us by His Name. Once again, that name of Yeshua means Yahweh's Salvation, so the Holy Spirit is being sent to us by the name of Yeshua. So by baptizing in the name of Yeshua like the Apostles did, means they were baptizing by the name of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit and fulfilling what Yeshua instructed in Matthew 28:19. The literally baptized in the NAME, not in the titles. And this is what the "Oneness Pentecostals are doing. The term oneness however, is an improper term. Because what they are doing by following the example of the Apostles is really baptizing like instructed in Matthew 28:19.
 

obedienttogod

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Jan 3, 2019
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Anyways, I realize the back to back posts are a lot to comprehend right away. But I assure you, both are scripturally sound with Yeshua (Yahweh's Salvation)(Jesus) providing the truths we read in the Book of Matthew concerning what the true identity of what the Holy Spirit actually is.

And of course, the baptizing in the NAME of Yeshua, or better yet, Yahweh's Salvation (the Father's NAME (Yahweh), is proof the Apostles were thinking of the Triunity of God, when they "Baptized in Yeshua's Name. Because we know that Yeshua's NAME means the Father's Salvation, and we know that Yeshua's NAME means the Father sent the Holy Spirit, the baptizing in the NAME of Yeshua literally fulfills Matthew 28:19.

Obviously, to know the true meaning of what Yeshua (the NAME) means, reveals why Yeshua told them to baptize that way in Matthew 28:19.

In the English KJV we cannot see this enlightenment, but in the Hebrew/Aramaic writings, it makes absolute perfect sense why the Apostles baptized like they did. Because the NAME Yeshua literally means the Father NAME and the Father's intentions = Salvation!!

So, if you were Baptized in the Name of Yeshua (Jesus), you are really Baptized in the NAME of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit!!
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,315
442
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No, I do not believe that "NO CHRISTIANS WERE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" before 1900. I believe there were always people who actually understood scripture and knew what Christ and Paul was claiming. They might have spoke in Tongues in the privacy of their home, they might have only been in a small group setting like a Bible Study Group, but nevertheless, I believe throughout all of time since the ascension of Jesus, people were speaking in Tongues.

The Pentecostal Movement just became a bigger group of people doing it and have been keeping that same formula since.

I know of Baptist and Methodist members who when in the company of Pentecostals speak in Tongues. Some claim their particular denomination frowns upon it, but they were raised Baptist/Methodist and will continue to be as such until they die, but they still believe in speaking in Tongues and do so in the company of like believers.

Yeah, I believe the majority of the groups you have listed like the Mormons, RCC, New Apostolic, wealth/health are actually occultic movements. The Mormons do not believe in the deity of Christ and how Smith claims he was made aware of this movement is done through a magicians trick (I do not ever see God working through magic). The RCC put Mary before God and believe in praying to the dead saints rather than to living God and they believe in rituals (to me, they traded statues of their greco-roman gods for statues of the Apostles and Jesus). The Apostolic movements have been associated with new age using crystals and channeling your inner self (clearly this is a form of witchcraft). And wealth and health are flat out lies since Jesus told us earth was not our home, we would suffer for His name and be hated because the world hated Him first. And the first church example shows people sold what they had and gave it to church and lived very poorly. So I do not buy the health/wealth movement at all, because we are not to put our cares on any of that crap but to put them on Jesus.

As far as the "Oneness Pentecostal Movement," they are following the Bible in the Book of Acts. Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 to baptize in the name of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. In Acts we see Peter, Paul and other Apostles baptizing in Jesus name. Well, they are following what Jesus instructed them to do. Jesus said He came to us in the name of the Father. The Father's name is Yahaweh, and Jesus real name is Yeshua, which means Yahweh's Salvation. So Peter, Paul, and the Apostles who baptized in the name of Yeshua is really baptizing in the name of Yahweh's Salvation (the Father). Jesus (Yeshua) said He is sending the Holy Spirit to us by His Name. Once again, that name of Yeshua means Yahweh's Salvation, so the Holy Spirit is being sent to us by the name of Yeshua. So by baptizing in the name of Yeshua like the Apostles did, means they were baptizing by the name of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit and fulfilling what Yeshua instructed in Matthew 28:19. The literally baptized in the NAME, not in the titles. And this is what the "Oneness Pentecostals are doing. The term oneness however, is an improper term. Because what they are doing by following the example of the Apostles is really baptizing like instructed in Matthew 28:19.
Dear brother,what you wrote about the cults, i agree with you. Take the RCC for example. Since 1967 is an charismatic renewal movement began in the RCC which is going conform with the doctrine of the pope and the RCC. The same charismatic with the Holy Spirit fulfilled people speaking in tongues and accepting the RCC doctrine. How this can be possible?
According your view they are full with the Holy Spirit. How they can accept the RCC doctrine. The Holy Spirit leads in truth and is not accepting false teachings!
The oneess pentecostals teach that if somebody has not the gift of speaking in tongues he has not the Holy Spirit and is not a christian, means child of God.
The OP indicates with his theme that every christian who is fullfilled with the Holy Spirit has the gift of speakimg in tongues. I cant find this teaching in my bible and also not in praxis in the letters to the churches. Why not? If this should be base doctrine in the life of every christian?
In 1. Cor 14, 30 Paul stated that not all getting the gift of speaking in tongues.
Are they then from God willingly excludet from a deeper relationship with him? I dont believe that!
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
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Dear brother,what you wrote about the cults, i agree with you. Take the RCC for example. Since 1967 is an charismatic renewal movement began in the RCC which is going conform with the doctrine of the pope and the RCC. The same charismatic with the Holy Spirit fulfilled people speaking in tongues and accepting the RCC doctrine. How this can be possible?
I know who you are talking about and I disagree they are the same group that I personally know. I definitely think whatever is going on is definitely not led by God. And in the same token, there are also rumors of the RCC joining with certain Muslim groups. In my honest opinion, it just appears that the Pope is definitely the False Prophet and there is a great falling away from the truth taking place.


According your view they are full with the Holy Spirit. How they can accept the RCC doctrine. The Holy Spirit leads in truth and is not accepting false teachings!
Kenneth Copeland and a few other tv preachers do claim to be charismatic, but I have a hard time accepting much of anything they spew out of their mouths. And Kenneth Copeland was one of the pastors who helped create this alliance with the RCC. I personally see demonic influence all over it!!


The oneess pentecostals teach that if somebody has not the gift of speaking in tongues he has not the Holy Spirit and is not a christian, means child of God.
Are you aware there are several organizations that fall under the Oneness Pentecostal category? Because if you were, you would know who is who and what they are actually all about. Now I am going to break it down for you, so you have a better idea who I believe is genuine and saved vs I absolutely disagree with anything they claim.

The [fakes]:
The United Pentecostal Church or the UPC:
Crooked as the backbone of a snake. Preachers can be bought, and those with serious cash flow in small rural areas can literally dictate what is being preached, sang, and how long service is going to last. They bash other local churches, make serious judgments on how others appear and dress, and talk about being BRAINWASHED!! They are the ones who the women wear their hair high up or in a bun, and every male wears a 3 piece suit. It's the most sickening scene I have ever been involved with.


Church of God:
Interesting enough, the church of God has churches that are classified trinity and some oneness. The ones I know of however, are back home, redneck, inbred, the deep backwoods ones are the snake handlers, preachers are drunks and chase women and then get up and preach how bad you are. it's a real joke.


Christ Temple:
I am not going to say much because once I use this name you will understand what I am saying.
JIM JONES - can you pass me the coolaid???


There are so many new ones that I have no idea about. I am only discussing the ones I know about personally.

OK now, the ones I feel are absolutely legit. This list is shorter than the ones I mentioned who I disagree with, and how I cannot for the life of me see how they are following anything the Bible actually claims.

Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ:
This movement began by a man named G.T Haywood. He wrote the Gospel song all churches sing, "Crimson Stream of Blood and it Flows down Calvary." It's most African American based with a few Caucasian and Hispanic chapters. They go strictly by the Book (Bible). Well, I have not been associated with them for about 15 years, but when I and my family was, you could not ask for anything better. Their doctrine is sound and the pastors, the deacons, the members are 100% legit sincere for God.


and last but not least..

Independent:
This is where I am at. I just do not want to be a part of any form of organization, association, denomination, none of that crap. I like the fact that I can have a Methodist preacher 1 week, a Baptist the next, Pentecostal after that, and no organization to get permission from or to answer to. I can have evangelists who are trinity and oneness preach. I like that fact that God leads and I just follow. I like how we view everyone as our Brother and Sister in Christ, and we are not defined by foolish doctrine and denomination. And how I explained what the NAME of YESHUA means (Yahweh's Salvation which is the Father's NAME) this is how we Baptize. It might appear to be Oneness, but the Name of Yeshua and what it actually means is Triune. We just do not teach it's 3 persons because the Bible does not make that claim at all. And as Jesus (Yeshua) explained in Matthew 12, the Holy Spirit is not a person, but the personal Spirit of God and the POWER of God!! We are scriptually sound, doctrinally sound, and we do not allow the things of this world to be a part of our assembly
[/B].


The OP indicates with his theme that every christian who is fullfilled with the Holy Spirit has the gift of speakimg in tongues. I cant find this teaching in my bible and also not in praxis in the letters to the churches. Why not? If this should be base doctrine in the life of every christian?
This is interesting because here is verse from Christ and a verse from Paul and they seem to be saying just the opposite.

From Yeshua:
Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


Yeshua (Jesus) claims a sign of a believer is someone who does speak in Tongues.


From Paul:
1 Corinthians 14:5

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


Paul says he wishes everyone spoke in Tongues, [which makes this clear] that (not everyone) does speak in Tongues

So we have a contrast here. Yeshua says those who speak in Tongues is a Believer (Christian), Paul makes it clear that not everyone does speak in Tongues (even though he wishes they did).

From Paul:
1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


Paul claims he does speak in Tongues, even more than anyone else.

This is difficult because God in human form (Yeshua) claims a believer DOES speak in Tongues.

Who is right between God and Paul?

The answer is obvious, but how can we say you are not saved because you don't speak in Tongues??


In 1. Cor 14, 30 Paul stated that not all getting the gift of speaking in tongues.
Are they then from God willingly excludet from a deeper relationship with him? I dont believe that!
I agree with you.

But I am also torn because Yeshua (Jesus) says, a it is a SIGN of a BELIEVER if they do Speak in Tongues!!

From Yeshua:
Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,115
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Brother obedienttoGod,

I believe that when Jesus breathed on the disciples, they received the Spirit of Christ. He said, receive Holy Spirit. They who had betrayed Him, were repentant and "turned to God". This is symbolized by Passover. Born again.

Then Pentecost came. Nothing more needs said here.

I also believe Tabernacles is two fold. First is when we are moving in the gifts. Holy Spirit moves up out either in words or actions. But there's coming the "perfect". That I believe is a whole body of Christ experience. Caught up. Full and totally in resurrection power. Not so sure though about being taken away. Two witnesses? Two olive trees? The head and His body as one? Still learning.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
Brother obedienttoGod,

I believe that when Jesus breathed on the disciples, they received the Spirit of Christ. He said, receive Holy Spirit. They who had betrayed Him, were repentant and "turned to God". This is symbolized by Passover. Born again.
Hello Brother stonesoffire (love the name),

I am assuming you are speaking about Peter (betrayed Him = denied Him)? I believe Peter repented the moment the rooster crowed and his eyes met the eyes of Yeshua looking right at him. I believe Peter after he ran away in shame, he repented then at that very moment. Now, he might have felt he was not fully forgiven, and why at the tomb his name is mentioned specifically. But I have no doubts that Peter sought forgiveness and was overwhelmingly sorrowful for Denying his Lord and Master.

The others could have felt like they did betray Him, since they all scattered like rats when Yeshua was in captive being charged so His captors could execute Him. They were nowhere to be found and did not support their Lord and Master. And I am also positive they sought forgiveness for themselves. But I am sure due to the fact Yeshua continued with them before He ascended, they knew they were forgiven.

And by Passover, the Death Angel, the lamb's blood on the door, escaping the vengeance of God was replaced by the Death, Burial, Resurrection, reborn into the Spirit of God. Good analysis!!


Then Pentecost came. Nothing more needs said here.
That must have been such an experience, with the power of God (Holy Spirit) manifesting within their unity, and then the outpouring that led to 3,000 souls being saved (lives completely changed). No wonder Peter gained such boldness to do the will of God.


I also believe Tabernacles is two fold. First is when we are moving in the gifts. Holy Spirit moves up out either in words or actions. But there's coming the "perfect". That I believe is a whole body of Christ experience. Caught up. Full and totally in resurrection power. Not so sure though about being taken away. Two witnesses? Two olive trees? The head and His body as one? Still learning.
I firmly believe before the Tribulation begins (which the Book of Matthew reveals the words of Yeshua concerning that the "Elect" will go through the Tribulation), there will be such a revival and outpouring of the Holy Spirit preparing those of us still alive for the Tribulation.

Obviously, the 2 Witnesses will be during the Tribulation.

To some, the meaning of the two olive trees represent, 1) the Law 2) the Prophets while the two lampstands represent, 1) the Old Covenant Church 2) the New Testament Church. I tend to agree, since these were the staples of the Bible, outside who Christ was throughout the Word.

The head and body as one, is when the Elect (the Bride) is gathered and together with Christ.

Concerning the learning, if any of us ever stop learning, we better fall to our knees and cry out to God. I prefer to be labelled as a full time student of God. There is so much we can only believe we understand and comprehend. Even trying to retain the knowledge can be a difficult task. Every moment, experience, whether in my personal life or those of others, is a complete classroom of information waiting to be learned in how God handles every situation. Life is nothing but a classroom, we are the students, and God is our Professor!!
 

Socreta93

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2015
1,963
143
63
I said this over a year ago, so I post it again. I once went to a service, the theme was healing and the women who preached the called everyone who was sick for them to get prayed for. She does NOT have the gift of healing but just prayed for healing of those who were sick, injured ect... anyway she started speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. She went to pray for a lady and she only prayed in tongues, then moved to the next person. Something like that always fascinated me
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
8,148
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to those who do not believe in the Trinity

so, we see Jesus being baptized by his cousin, the Holy Spirit descending like a dove and a voice from 'heaven' saying 'this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased

so either Jesus is a magician and practiced in ventriloquism also, or cheese whiz, these were three separate yet one revealing themselves

those who reject the Holy Spirit, or mistakenly call Him an 'it', reveal a very basic lack of biblical doctrine and do not approach even beginning to worship God in spirit and in truth
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
4,407
777
113
to those who do not believe in the Trinity

so, we see Jesus being baptized by his cousin, the Holy Spirit descending like a dove and a voice from 'heaven' saying 'this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased

so either Jesus is a magician and practiced in ventriloquism also, or cheese whiz, these were three separate yet one revealing themselves

those who reject the Holy Spirit, or mistakenly call Him an 'it', reveal a very basic lack of biblical doctrine and do not approach even beginning to worship God in spirit and in truth
There's nothing about Jesus' baptism that supports trinity doctrine. Three separate persons yes, but three persons in one, not so much, you have to stretch your imagination and scripture to get that.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,315
442
83
I know who you are talking about and I disagree they are the same group that I personally know. I definitely think whatever is going on is definitely not led by God. And in the same token, there are also rumors of the RCC joining with certain Muslim groups. In my honest opinion, it just appears that the Pope is definitely the False Prophet and there is a great falling away from the truth taking place.




Kenneth Copeland and a few other tv preachers do claim to be charismatic, but I have a hard time accepting much of anything they spew out of their mouths. And Kenneth Copeland was one of the pastors who helped create this alliance with the RCC. I personally see demonic influence all over it!!




Are you aware there are several organizations that fall under the Oneness Pentecostal category? Because if you were, you would know who is who and what they are actually all about. Now I am going to break it down for you, so you have a better idea who I believe is genuine and saved vs I absolutely disagree with anything they claim.

The [fakes]:
The United Pentecostal Church or the UPC:
Crooked as the backbone of a snake. Preachers can be bought, and those with serious cash flow in small rural areas can literally dictate what is being preached, sang, and how long service is going to last. They bash other local churches, make serious judgments on how others appear and dress, and talk about being BRAINWASHED!! They are the ones who the women wear their hair high up or in a bun, and every male wears a 3 piece suit. It's the most sickening scene I have ever been involved with.


Church of God:
Interesting enough, the church of God has churches that are classified trinity and some oneness. The ones I know of however, are back home, redneck, inbred, the deep backwoods ones are the snake handlers, preachers are drunks and chase women and then get up and preach how bad you are. it's a real joke.


Christ Temple:
I am not going to say much because once I use this name you will understand what I am saying.
JIM JONES - can you pass me the coolaid???


There are so many new ones that I have no idea about. I am only discussing the ones I know about personally.

OK now, the ones I feel are absolutely legit. This list is shorter than the ones I mentioned who I disagree with, and how I cannot for the life of me see how they are following anything the Bible actually claims.

Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ:
This movement began by a man named G.T Haywood. He wrote the Gospel song all churches sing, "Crimson Stream of Blood and it Flows down Calvary." It's most African American based with a few Caucasian and Hispanic chapters. They go strictly by the Book (Bible). Well, I have not been associated with them for about 15 years, but when I and my family was, you could not ask for anything better. Their doctrine is sound and the pastors, the deacons, the members are 100% legit sincere for God.


and last but not least..

Independent:
This is where I am at. I just do not want to be a part of any form of organization, association, denomination, none of that crap. I like the fact that I can have a Methodist preacher 1 week, a Baptist the next, Pentecostal after that, and no organization to get permission from or to answer to. I can have evangelists who are trinity and oneness preach. I like that fact that God leads and I just follow. I like how we view everyone as our Brother and Sister in Christ, and we are not defined by foolish doctrine and denomination. And how I explained what the NAME of YESHUA means (Yahweh's Salvation which is the Father's NAME) this is how we Baptize. It might appear to be Oneness, but the Name of Yeshua and what it actually means is Triune. We just do not teach it's 3 persons because the Bible does not make that claim at all. And as Jesus (Yeshua) explained in Matthew 12, the Holy Spirit is not a person, but the personal Spirit of God and the POWER of God!! We are scriptually sound, doctrinally sound, and we do not allow the things of this world to be a part of our assembly
[/B].




This is interesting because here is verse from Christ and a verse from Paul and they seem to be saying just the opposite.

From Yeshua:
Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


Yeshua (Jesus) claims a sign of a believer is someone who does speak in Tongues.


From Paul:
1 Corinthians 14:5

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


Paul says he wishes everyone spoke in Tongues, [which makes this clear] that (not everyone) does speak in Tongues

So we have a contrast here. Yeshua says those who speak in Tongues is a Believer (Christian), Paul makes it clear that not everyone does speak in Tongues (even though he wishes they did).

From Paul:
1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


Paul claims he does speak in Tongues, even more than anyone else.

This is difficult because God in human form (Yeshua) claims a believer DOES speak in Tongues.

Who is right between God and Paul?

The answer is obvious, but how can we say you are not saved because you don't speak in Tongues??




I agree with you.

But I am also torn because Yeshua (Jesus) says, a it is a SIGN of a BELIEVER if they do Speak in Tongues!!

From Yeshua:
Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Thank you for your explanations. In some points i cant follow you.
1. The Holy Spirit is a person. Jesus called him a counselour and gives him person attributes. And this we find always when he is mentioned in Gods word.
2. If Mark 16, 17 would be for today, then all believers can have a drink of poison as a true sign that they are believers. Did you made this test?
A good way to find out who is a believer and who not.
In around 157 AD (maby before this) the church was found in worldly condition. In this time a man named Montanus which said from himself that he is the paraklet, builded a new movement where prophecy and speaking in tongues occur and became a big movement based on false doctrine.
Some historical said his was possible because the signgifts had stopped in those days. And the believers linged to the gifts of the pastbelive

According your belive no true christian exist between the apostolic time and the beginning of the pentecostal movement in 1900AD. Except haretic groups which false teachings.

And even non of the reformatic founders which went back to the bible got this teaching from God to teach this in the churches.

But out of this teaching the Lord uses till today miracles and healings, special in mission situation to reveal his power in contrast to the spiritual darkness.
3. This why, who claims that speaking in tongues is for all christian available is teaching wrong.
And I asked me is the whole teaching which based on that what conquer the world since 1900 wrong.
Because it seperatet the christianity and build out an 2 class christianity.