PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#81
God says we will not be spared judgement, and the events of the Seals and Trumpets are called judgments. Thus we should expect to see these events before the rapture.
The 6th and 7th seal present BOTH the wrath and the corresponding judgments of God. These are for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the wicked, and the enemies of Christ. And according to the Olivet Discourse the events of the 6th seal come after those of the 7th seal (the Great Tribulation).
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,103
531
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#82
I put this on a different thread but in case you didn't see it Ill post here as well:

Here is a great piece on this issue from the late Dr. Chuck Missler. One of the much missed points he makes is that the accounts in Luke and Matthew are spoken by Jesus at different times and locations:

Resolving the Olivet Discourse
Epistemology, Part 5:
by Chuck Missler

It is ironic that Jesus’ opening imperative in His “Olivet Discourse” is “Take heed that no man deceive you.”1 This is His command, but it begs a question of means: “How do we avoid that?” There seems to be more conjectures and misunderstandings over this passage than almost any other in the New Testament.

The tools to avoid deception derive from a study of epistemology: the study of knowledge — its scope and limits. Our exploration of this passage will challenge more than simply our hermeneutics alone. It will challenge our grasp of the whole eschatological plan in its entirety.

For many students of eschatology — the study of last things — the so-called Olivet Discourse has proven to be a troublesome passage, with many finding it confusing and ostensibly self-contradictory; a hermeneutical battleground between the dispensationalists and the preterists, etc. The preterists insist that this passage — and the Book of Revelation — has been already fulfilled, and much of it is dismissed by them as simply allegorical. Yet even those who embrace a dispensational view have difficulty reconciling many of the Olivet Discourse passages.

Resolving Power
In optics, the resolving power of a telescope determines its ability to distinguish between two close, but distinct, stars. An apparent single star viewed with a cheap telescope turns out to be a pair of distinctly separate stars when viewed with a telescope of better optical quality. This quality is known as the “resolving power” of its optics.

We seem to have an analogous situation here. In this case, we may benefit by setting aside our presumptions and presuppositions and let the several texts speak for themselves.

A Hazardous Tradition
The traditional “harmonization of the Gospels” is part of the problem. Ever since Augustine, scholars have attempted to meld the four distinct Gospels into a combined narrative. While this can be useful for a cursory review of the life of Christ, it can also result in a myopia of sorts and the Olivet Discourse (recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) is a salient example.

Since Matthew was skilled in shorthand, we tend to lean on his detailed rendering. And yet there seems to be a substantial disparity between his record and that of Luke’s. Numerous elements appear identical in both accounts, so it has been fashionable — for 1700 years — to assume that they both deal with the same event. Attempts to “harmonize” them have continued to yield a treacherous minefield of confusion.

Trusting the Texts
It seems that setting aside all of our presuppositions, and simply trusting the integrity of the texts may improve our “resolving power” in addressing these passages.

Jesus called us to respect the details,2 so let’s take a closer look at each of them. They each may be focusing on different events from a different perspective and maybe even addressing different audiences on different occasions. The similarities of expression in the various accounts may have caused us to jump to premature conjectures, etc.
Let me state right now that I'm a post-tribulationist guy. I use to be a pre-trib guy well over 50 years ago until I really studied this thing out. I also know who chuck missler is and I learned something today when he said, "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4). Look at vs3 and take note of the disciples question?

"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD." What I learned in from Matthew 24:4 is if there is a pre-trib rapture why does Jesus tell them, "let no man decieve you" if their going to get raptured?

It's akin to what the Apostle John stated at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from that we know that it is the last hour." Here again, John is expecting the antichrist, so why look or wait for him if we are raptured which means the church will not be here when he comes? Instead, we all going to be at the Lambs supper eating lamb chops while all hell is breaking loose here on earth. To me it just does not make any sense.

And look at Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a SECOND time for salvation or DELIVERANCE without reference to sin, to those who eargerly await Him." Or when the Apostle Paul is mad at 2 Timothy 2:18, "Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some." Personally, I cannot see where there is a rapture first, and then a second coming from what Paul just stated and in light of Hebrews 9:28.

And let's not forget 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are SUFFERING, vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repy with affliction those who afflicted you, vs7 (HOW?) and to give you RELIEF/REST to you who are afflicted and to us as well "WHEN DO WE GET REST?" WHEN THE lORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS IN FLAMING FIRE."

Notice vs8-10, "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our lord Jesus, vs9, And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, vs10 "WHEN" He comes to be glorified in His saints on THAT DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed." Bottom line, these are just a few reasons that make sense to me and why I'm a post-tribulationist. If you pre's are right, so be it because nobody in their right mind would want to be confronted by the antichrist. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,555
9,067
113
#84
I especially like his "Return of the Nephilim" ideas..... great entertainment value
Is your intent to be offensive? I really can’t tell.

Knowing your preterist views it sure looks like it.
Jesus Himself said “as in the days of Noah...”. But if you don’t believe there were Nephilim to begin with then you certainly aren’t going to believe we will see them again.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#85
Is your intent to be offensive? I really can’t tell.

Knowing your preterist views it sure looks like it.
Jesus Himself said “as in the days of Noah...”. But if you don’t believe there were Nephilim to begin with then you certainly aren’t going to believe we will see them again.
Just making light of his sensationalism, oh I am sure there were Nephilim, just not how he defines them.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,269
113
Usa
#86
Nope, I am sorry you think there can be new converts in the 7 years that are so strong in the Lord that they can be martyred. God is fully able to protect His people that scripture points out while the tribulation in ongoing.

I am historic premillennialism all the way. But I won't quite buy into chiliasm because I see a physical Israel under a second part of the Abrahamic Covenant. Mind you, Christ is the only way to salvation; so we are not talking about salvation when Israel will be restored physically. That will be possible and even probable once everything is out in the open. That still takes place one by one in each believer's life. Here is a little picture I have of Christ's return:

Mark 13:37 “And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

1 Thess. 5:2-6 “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. 1 Thess. 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." You see, we meet in the air, then we are ever with the Lord; not ever in the air.

Some claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

Now a couple references as to where are reign with Christ will be:
Rev. 5:10 “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”


Rev. 20:6 “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

It doesn't say we will stay in the air or heaven. When Christ comes back the next time, He will stay. He will circle the globe for the rapture then set His feet on the Mount of Olives. Fulfilling this prophecy:

Acts 1:10, 11 "And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Here is a chart of each view: (the light blue is historic premillennialism)

thank you! I am really trying to get an understanding! 🙏🙏🙏
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,269
113
Usa
#87
The scriptural notations for this are in my blogs. They are quite verbose so I'll just give the Readers Digest version here:

God's word is eternal and one manifestation thereof does not render it moot. This is what is behind Biblical patterns and 'history repeating itself'.

God offered the Messiah to the Jews. They rejected Him. They suffered their tribulation in 70 ad.

God then offered the Christ to the world. The world is rejecting Him. And so the world will suffer it's tribulation in the years to come.

God says we will not be spared judgement, and the events of the Seals and Trumpets are called judgments. Thus we should expect to see these events before the rapture.

The Bowls are SPECIFICALLY labeled as God's wrath. Thus we should not expect to see these events.

How I see it playing out: We, the church are here for the Trumpet and Seals. We are then caught up to attend the wedding feast while the world suffers the events of the Bowls. Post wrath, we then return to this world with Jesus for the millennium.
so are you saying mid-trib? 🙏🙏🙏
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,269
113
Usa
#89
Let me state right now that I'm a post-tribulationist guy. I use to be a pre-trib guy well over 50 years ago until I really studied this thing out. I also know who chuck missler is and I learned something today when he said, "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4). Look at vs3 and take note of the disciples question?

"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD." What I learned in from Matthew 24:4 is if there is a pre-trib rapture why does Jesus tell them, "let no man decieve you" if their going to get raptured?

It's akin to what the Apostle John stated at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from that we know that it is the last hour." Here again, John is expecting the antichrist, so why look or wait for him if we are raptured which means the church will not be here when he comes? Instead, we all going to be at the Lambs supper eating lamb chops while all hell is breaking loose here on earth. To me it just does not make any sense.

And look at Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a SECOND time for salvation or DELIVERANCE without reference to sin, to those who eargerly await Him." Or when the Apostle Paul is mad at 2 Timothy 2:18, "Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some." Personally, I cannot see where there is a rapture first, and then a second coming from what Paul just stated and in light of Hebrews 9:28.

And let's not forget 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are SUFFERING, vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repy with affliction those who afflicted you, vs7 (HOW?) and to give you RELIEF/REST to you who are afflicted and to us as well "WHEN DO WE GET REST?" WHEN THE lORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS IN FLAMING FIRE."

Notice vs8-10, "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our lord Jesus, vs9, And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, vs10 "WHEN" He comes to be glorified in His saints on THAT DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed." Bottom line, these are just a few reasons that make sense to me and why I'm a post-tribulationist. If you pre's are right, so be it because nobody in their right mind would want to be confronted by the antichrist. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
thank you for your input 🙏🙏🙏
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,555
9,067
113
#90
Just making light of his sensationalism, oh I am sure there were Nephilim, just not how he defines them.
He defines them as they should be. The offspring of Fallen Angels and human women. There is not even a tiny doubt that is what they are.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#91
In Rev.1:10, John heard a voice which sounded like a trumpet. Then in Rev.4:1 he hears the same voice like a trumpet saying "come up here." The voice which sounds like a trumpet is a clue to the reader, which is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" found in 1 Thess.4:16 where Paul describes the church being changed and caught up. Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to when the church is caught up in the chronological order of Revelation, which takes place prior to the first seal being opened.
Revelation 4:1 does not mention the second coming, the church, or the rapture of the church, so to say it is "A PROPHETIC ALLUSION TO WHEN THE CHURCH IS CAUGHT UP" is just a personal opinion based on using a Scripture to say what it does not say, so as to prove what he believes.
When people do this, everyone should be suspect of all that person says.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#92
He defines them as they should be. The offspring of Fallen Angels and human women. There is not even a tiny doubt that is what they are.
Well many would differ on this as well, since it does require understanding of what is meant in the Hebrew by the terms "sons of God"

But not the topic of this thread....but I think you had one a while ago >>> am I remembering correctly?

I could go find it ;)
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
#93
He defines them as they should be. The offspring of Fallen Angels and human women. There is not even a tiny doubt that is what they are.
Pure fantasy in my opinion ED. Why would God create angels with begatting equipment?
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#94
The 6th and 7th seal present BOTH the wrath and the corresponding judgments of God. These are for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the wicked, and the enemies of Christ. And according to the Olivet Discourse the events of the 6th seal come after those of the 7th seal (the Great Tribulation).
The events of the sixth seal come AFTER those of the seventh seal?
I don't think so.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,555
9,067
113
#95
Well many would differ on this as well, since it does require understanding of what is meant in the Hebrew by the terms "sons of God"

But not the topic of this thread....but I think you had one a while ago >>> am I remembering correctly?

I could go find it ;)
I find it an explainable but no longer a debatable issue. It is also a more important issue than I used to think. It ties a lot of Scripture together that either made no sense or was allegorized.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,269
113
Usa
#96
PLEASE PEOPLE.....STAY ON TOPIC! I AM SINCERE IN MY QUEST FOR UNDERSTANDING! IF YOU NEED TO DISCUSS OTHER ISSUES....OPEN A NEW THREAD! THANK YOU ALL! 🙏🙏🙏
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#97
I find it an explainable but no longer a debatable issue. It is also a more important issue than I used to think. It ties a lot of Scripture together that either made no sense or was allegorized.
Well I do not think angels are able to procreate that kind of ends it right there.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#98
PLEASE PEOPLE.....STAY ON TOPIC! I AM SINCERE IN MY QUEST FOR UNDERSTANDING! IF YOU NEED TO DISCUSS OTHER ISSUES....OPEN A NEW THREAD! THANK YOU ALL! 🙏🙏🙏
I knew that was coming...LOL