Predestination or free wiil.

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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#41
Yes! We are known of God the moment we call upon His name for salvation. God knows us at salvation.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Very wise. My own experience was when my heart was broken.

I did not call on any name, rather I cried, "You Are Who You Are." He spoke to me immediately after putting me into a deep sleep, and He showed me my way to come. Then He led me to Jesus Christ, Yeshua.

Of course I only called upon the Maker of all that is. Apparently there are myriads of pople who already know His name. I willnot know His true name until He returns a pure tongue to all people so that we may cal upon Himwith one accord...Zephaniah.

Until tht time I will call my savior Jesus or Yeshua...….both mean the Salvation of the one Who IS 8Self-Existing,.)
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#42
This is one of those debates that from the predestination point of view is meaningless. Why? Because God has simply predestined me to believe in free will, so nothing can change that.

The Bible teaches both, free will and predestination. Instead of choosing just one, we must reconcile both.
But you ask: Where is free will taught? For example: When God commands His people to repent, and says "but ye would not" or something similar to that.

It would make no sense for God to ask people to repent, when it is infact His fault they wont repent. All God has to do is give them repentance and faith, as the calvinists believe. Yet God refuses to give people this grace, and continues to ask and command them to repent. This is not logical, nor biblical, and just makes God out to be the same as Pharaoh in these verses:

Exodus 5:16 There is no straw given unto thy servants, and they say to us, Make brick: and, behold, thy servants are beaten; but the fault is in thine own people.

Pharaoh was asking something unreasonable.
Blaming God, eh Hevosmies? Tis "God's fault", His people wouldn't come unto repentance? When all along, tis God attempting in the growing of his children, into becoming MEN!

Although, the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, has got its enemies? In more cases then not, and this might help some of those who believe, and have accepted Jesus, and are finding out, there are, or is just "some" (for lack of a better term) "things", usually concerning the "individual's" personality, or character, or (in more cases then not) INTEGRITY, that are "seen" in the convert's eyes, as in "one being pursued by the devil", and, cannot seem to shake, or "cast out", or overcome! And, to the convert, seems as if God has left, or forsaken them? This, is not the case!

Using an illustration, of a stalk of wheat as ONE converted soul? That for you non agrarian types, produces many grains from the "original plant", IF allowed to grow, and not become self righteous in its producing one grain? When God, also called an "husbandsmen", "draws near" the plant, and strives in "unentangling" AT THE "ROOT LEVEL", those "tares", as they are referred to in the parable, so that the "wheat plant" might produce even more grains? It's God Himself, who is (how can I say) holding the "convert" there! "Waiting, and watching", for, or until, that particular convert, of that particular "wheat plant" realizes, that, and confronts, that particular, aspect of itself, that is trying to "sneak" into the sheeps pen, some "other" way, then the Sheeps gate! Which, these days is Jesus of Nazareth! Ya can't CON God!

It was Israel's repeated attempts at this same "Con game", or, in the "flesh's" "reasoning itself" right out of salvation, that God couldn't bend over backwards ANY LONGER! Which, so oft times happens when "material empiricism", (or that which is seen, and can be recreated) blocks THAT which is "spiritual", and cannot be seen, with "flesh eyes!"

It's not God's fault! It's these "weak-arsed" gullible, and empirically driven "flesh bodies!"
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#43
Only 2 choice if God chose mean predestined to heaven

If God not chose automatically predisten to hell
Man caused their own destiny by their sinful actions. God did not predestin anyone to hell.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#44
It would be wise to read all of the Word as regarding this blurred vsion of predestination.

God will in no wise turn away a broken heart, and this is an offering acceptable to Him. There are lots of verses one may !quote" without feeling or understanding, but all of the Word must be understood and passed on with mercy, justice and faith…… none of these three requirements set by our Lord, Jesus are contained in the idea of predestination.

God foreknows us all when we have come to Him in repentance from our sinful life and ways…..it is in the Book
You are not fully understanding 1 Cor 2:14 and Eph 2:5. Con you give me your interpretation of those two scriptures? The natural man, void of the Holy Spirit, will never have a broken heart over spiritual matters. The sacrifices of God is a broken and contrite heart. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not have a deep sorrow for breaking a spiritual law from a spiritual God that he cannot discern.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#45
Man caused their own destiny by their sinful actions. God did not predestin anyone to hell.
This is only true if God gave man free will. If adam and Eve did not sin, No man would have went to hell. Because their would have been no fall.

So either God predestined Adam and Eve to sin, or God gave them free will. And KNOWING he would sin, already prepaired a way to restor them to himself

If God did not give man free will. Then he predestined some to hell. And some to heaven. Based on whatever form of favoritism he choses.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#46
You are not fully understanding 1 Cor 2:14 and Eph 2:5. Con you give me your interpretation of those two scriptures? The natural man, void of the Holy Spirit, will never have a broken heart over spiritual matters. The sacrifices of God is a broken and contrite heart. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not have a deep sorrow for breaking a spiritual law from a spiritual God that he cannot discern.
Which is why the HS was sent to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment.

As paul said, The gentiles by nature do what is right, This is because Gods law is written in our DNA, and when we live apart from that we are most definately in a desperate situation. Again, As paul said in ROm 1. They not only KNOW what they do (sin) causes them to earn damnation. They want others to do it with them.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#47
Yes! We are known of God the moment we call upon His name for salvation. God knows us at salvation.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
God is a spirit, and we must worship him in spirit and truth. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern spiritual things. Paul, in Gal 4:9, is speaking son's of God, verse 6, not to the natural man. The natural man will never call upon a spiritual God's name, that he cannot discern.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#48
God is a spirit, and we must worship him in spirit and truth. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern spiritual things. Paul, in Gal 4:9, is speaking son's of God, verse 6, not to the natural man. The natural man will never call upon a spiritual God's name, that he cannot discern.
If this is true, You and I would never be saved, because we could never come to faith in Christ, meaning we would never be justified. Meaning we could never be born again.

Your not born again in sin, Sin must be removed BEFORE you are made alive, this is called justification.

Justification precedes new birth.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#49
I do not think that 1 Cor 2:14 will harmonize with the fact that the natural man, who cannot discern spiritual things, will respond to a spiritual God making a spiritual call. If it is God's will that any of mankind should perish (if you are meaning that by perishing that they go to hell) and if God accomplishes all his will, and does all his pleasure, then why are not all mankind going to heaven?

If you would compare this verse, with what Paul stated when he prayed the Lord would take away that "thorn in his side" in 2nd Corinthians 2:7, as "the natural man?"

You might "see", that even Paul, as great a teacher as he was, or still is, for that matter, had "God's little fail safe" instilled within his "own" natural man!

In other words? It "harmonizes?" Just FINE!
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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#50
You are not fully understanding 1 Cor 2:14 and Eph 2:5. Con you give me your interpretation of those two scriptures? The natural man, void of the Holy Spirit, will never have a broken heart over spiritual matters. The sacrifices of God is a broken and contrite heart. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not have a deep sorrow for breaking a spiritual law from a spiritual God that he cannot discern.
My reference to what God will not turn away is from the Old Testament, from the Word as inspired by Jesus Christ. It is also from my personal experience being saved by God with His Holy Spirit entering into me fully.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,177
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#51
God is a spirit, and we must worship him in spirit and truth. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern spiritual things. Paul, in Gal 4:9, is speaking son's of God, verse 6, not to the natural man. The natural man will never call upon a spiritual God's name, that he cannot discern.
Sure, by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads a man to make the decision, but does not make the decision for the man. The man may reject the Holy Spirit's leading or believe.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#52
This is only true if God gave man free will. If adam and Eve did not sin, No man would have went to hell. Because their would have been no fall.

So either God predestined Adam and Eve to sin, or God gave them free will. And KNOWING he would sin, already prepaired a way to restor them to himself

If God did not give man free will. Then he predestined some to hell. And some to heaven. Based on whatever form of favoritism he choses.
God has given all mankind a free will as to how man wants to live his life here on earth, as evidenced by scriptures where God tells us to choose certain things pertaining to our lives here on earth, but it is God's choice, by his sovereign grace, to save man eternally.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#53
My reference to what God will not turn away is from the Old Testament, from the Word as inspired by Jesus Christ. It is also from my personal experience being saved by God with His Holy Spirit entering into me fully.
So, what is your interpretation of the two scriptures that I gave you? Give me scripture from the old testament that you have reference to.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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#54
The scripture to which you refer say nothing to support man not having free will nor anything bearing on supporting that a man cannot come to God and be saved. Of coure, God only know the hearts of each person, but, all have the choice to be sincere when they come to God.

Some pople may think they can fool God, but that is an absurd notion.

As for the references in the OT there are several but only one comes to mind at present, Psal 51.ñ I always remember this one because this describes my repenting of this age and turning to God as all there is.

I will not consent to further discussion at this point because you are going to believe what yiou are convinced of and I too will believe what I blieve the Holy Spirit has taught.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#55
Sure, by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads a man to make the decision, but does not make the decision for the man. The man may reject the Holy Spirit's leading or believe.
Did you read 1 Cor 2:14? The only way a person can be lead by the Holy Spirit is if he has already been regenerated, Eph 5, and has been given the indwelling of the Spirit.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56
God has given all mankind a free will as to how man wants to live his life here on earth, as evidenced by scriptures where God tells us to choose certain things pertaining to our lives here on earth, but it is God's choice, by his sovereign grace, to save man eternally.
Yep. And according to God, How is a man saved.

“Whoever BELIEVES IN HIM has eternal life”
“Saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH”
“Whoever believes in not ocndemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already”

God paid the price of salvation, But he still wants a person to WANT to be saved, he will not force it on anyone. Ie, Salvation is a free will choice also. If you have no desire to recieve him, He will allow you to remain in unbelief and send yourself to hell.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#57
Did you read 1 Cor 2:14? The only way a person can be lead by the Holy Spirit is if he has already been regenerated, Eph 5, and has been given the indwelling of the Spirit.
A MAN or WOMAN can NOT BE REGENERATED UNTILE his or her SIN IS FIRST REMOVED.

The penalty of sin is death, thus as long as sin is not remoeved, Death is the result.


The context of 1 cor 14 is knowing what God has given those who are saved, Which the natural man can not understand, it is foolish to them, This has NOTHING to do with knowing what it takes to be saved.

Eph 5 is written to people already saved, so not sure what point your tryign to make there
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#58
The scripture to which you refer say nothing to support man not having free will nor anything bearing on supporting that a man cannot come to God and be saved. Of coure, God only know the hearts of each person, but, all have the choice to be sincere when they come to God.

Some pople may think they can fool God, but that is an absurd notion.

As for the references in the OT there are several but only one comes to mind at present, Psal 51.ñ I always remember this one because this describes my repenting of this age and turning to God as all there is.

I will not consent to further discussion at this point because you are going to believe what yiou are convinced of and I too will believe what I blieve the Holy Spirit has taught.
My thinking is that we are all on this forum to discuss scripture, and I am a firm believer that scriptures prove them selves. If you cannot harmonize the scriptures that I have given you with what you want to believe, I understand. Ps 51:1, this is a prayer of David, who is the apple of God's eye, who has already been regenerated by God. It is evident to me that you are a regenerated child of God, and will be in heaven at the last day. A lot of people get confused between being born again and being converted. I suspect you had already been born again when you repented and turned to God(converted). The natural man, before he is regenerated (born again), will never repent of a spiritual law he has broken, because he cannot discern spiritual things. I wish you the best.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#59
A MAN or WOMAN can NOT BE REGENERATED UNTILE his or her SIN IS FIRST REMOVED.

The penalty of sin is death, thus as long as sin is not remoeved, Death is the result.

The context of 1 cor 14 is knowing what God has given those who are saved, Which the natural man can not understand, it is foolish to them, This has NOTHING to do with knowing what it takes to be saved.

Eph 5 is written to people already saved, so not sure what point your tryign to make there
The sins of everyone that Christ died for, as concerning eternal life, was paid for (removed) in full by Jesus on the cross, however, we carry our sin nature to our grave, and battle it every day, even though we have been regenerated. Regenerated means, "made alive". In Eph 2:5 we were dead in sins and were made alive in Christ by regeneration. Your remark "knowing what it takes to be saved". Can you explain what you think it takes to be saved?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#60
Yep. And according to God, How is a man saved.

“Whoever BELIEVES IN HIM has eternal life”
“Saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH”
“Whoever believes in not ocndemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already”


God paid the price of salvation, But he still wants a person to WANT to be saved, he will not force it on anyone. Ie, Salvation is a free will choice also. If you have no desire to recieve him, He will allow you to remain in unbelief and send yourself to hell.
Whoever believes in him does have eternal life, but believing is not the cause of eternal life, but the evidence we already have eternal life. We are saved on the cross by Jesus's faith, or faithfulness to go to the cross. The scriptures tell us that there is a salvation (deliverance) here on earth by our faith in understanding that Jesus died for our sins. Eternal salvation is not caused by our faith or it would be eternal salvation by works.