predestination vs freewill

[OIC1965]

From an Eternal point of view, we have always had spiritual life. From the Temporal view this life must be worked out. The fact that this spiritual life in Christ, must be worked out in temporal steps, does not nullify the Eternal reality.

In other words it is like Resurrection. When a person dies, they go on to be with the Lord. They step out of time into Eternity. They are instantly with the Lord, in their glorified bodies. However, from our perspective, a temporal perspective, this person's Resurrection is still future.

The Eternal perspective is God's only perspective because His state is eternal. He has given the Elect instructions for their Temporal pilgrimage and growth in knowledge because we have a Temporal beginning as human beings. Yet Scripture says we were with God before we were born. How is that possible? Because there was never a time (since time has no bearing on God's eternal state) when all of the Elect were not with Him.

Confusing yes? Not really, if you take the time to pray and meditate upon these things.

Did you see in the article where the writer specifically said “spoken/written” word?

When did I say that the Gospel regenerates? Never

My position is the same as the writer of the article, who is a monergist. The Spirit regenerates through or by means of the Gospel. Could be that day, could be years later. Read the article carefully. That is exactly what he says

The only reason I reference the article is because you incorrectly called my position synergistic

It’s not.

 

[OIC1965]

Did you see in the article where the writer specifically said “spoken/written” word?

When did I say that the Gospel regenerates? Never

My position is the same as the writer of the article, who is a monergist. The Spirit regenerates through or by means of the Gospel. Could be that day, could be years later. Read the article carefully. That is exactly what he says

The only reason I reference the article is because you incorrectly called my position synergistic

It’s not.

Ps. The article says we plant the seed right. And then the Spirit uses that seed to regenerate, yes?

What seed do we plant?

Is it the written/spoken Word? Because we do not plant the Divine LOGOS, ( second person of Trinity).

The Holy Spirit accomplishes that, right?

 

[rayzor]

The fallacy "men is system"All Jews think this way, all blacks think that way our even as a whole the jews think such and such.I tell u u have 2 consider ray has the mind of ray Genny the mind of Genny.That is on the primise that your trying to serve god.

 

[rogerg]

let me first say, how much I appreciate your respectful and calm demeanor in your questions and comments.

Thank you awelight, and I appreciate that you are willing to share your insights. I will digest your reply and see where it
may go from there.

 

[OIC1965]

However, just keep in mind, this is another man's opinion. Just like you and I. If you like others opinions then how about these men:

.

the reason I posted the article was to show you monergism doesn’t always conform to your view.

I will make an admission. God can and has done a monergistic work upon a heart that prepares them to receive the Word.

 

[OIC1965]

the reason I posted the article was to show you monergism doesn’t always conform to your view.

I will make an admission. God can and has done a monergistic work upon a heart that prepares them to receive the Word.

But I don’t know if you can call that regeneration, for only the ones who have Christ have spiritual life.

 

[rogerg]

The NT does not teach that you are born again before you have believed in Christ.
See, if that were true, then all the unbelievers would be born again, already.
So, in that case.....Jesus who said....>"you must be born again".......would be confused.
But He's not confused....... You are.
A cult teaches what you are teaching.[/QUOTE

can someone believe who cannot believe?

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Icedaisey]

God is the Father.
Pre-incarnate Jesus is ONE with the Father as the Word, in John 1.

In Genesis you read that God the Father said........."Let there be", , and creation showed up.
In John 1:10, it says that Jesus created the World.
In Colossians 1:16, it says that Jesus created everything.
Jesus said....>"if you've seen me, you've seen the Father".
Thomas the Apostle said to Jesus......"my lord and my GOD".
God is "A" Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit.

1. God
2. Jesus
3. Holy Spirit

That's 3 yet One, as explained in John 1.


Man is 3, yet One. = Soul, Spirit, Body.

You're omitting parts of the chapter in order to make your point.

In the beginning was the word

And the word was with God


And the word was God.

And a few verses later... And the word became flesh (Immanuel, Jesus) and dwelt among us.


The word was God and God became flesh, Jesus. One. Jesus was God. God was Jesus. That's not two separate and distinct beings. That's the creator being, the word, in the flesh.

And the word? Is Spirit.
As Jesus said in John 6:63.
It is the Spirit giving life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.

When the word was spirit and God is spirit in flesh as Jesus, there is only the One.

I'm not three separate and distinct person's. Body, mind, spirit. Because all that exists as I am, as I do, is of God and from God.

 

[rayzor]

Icedaisey look: [Elohim is purl] Jesus called the father god & said he could do nothing without god and the spirit said she was pleased with her son if not one then 3 god yet god said their is only 1 god.water ice steam 3 forms one substance.The voice could not have been the father because no one heard the father at any time.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I said that you waste time worrying about "angels", and you respond that im rejecting the word of Christ.

So, where does "Christ" tell me to put teaching emphasis or personal obsession on "Angels"?

Wake up..

So, as i said, you are obsessing.

My advice ? Start obsessing on the CROSS of Christ.
Thats the place to obsess.

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


It’s sad to see people who claim to be Christians reject the words of Christ.


The point of this scripture is not angels, but attaining to the resurrection, in which a person is becomes a son of God in reality, because they have received a body that can no longer die; being a son of the resurrection.



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Straight forward answer please. Are you denying the teaching of Eternal Security.

Im denying unbiblical manmade doctrine, not found in scripture.


That being said, please post the chapter and verse with the phrase eternal security.


Here are those who will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



Eternal salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ.




JPT

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The NT does not teach that you are born again before you have believed in Christ.
See, if that were true, then all the unbelievers would be born again, already.
So, in that case.....Jesus who said....>"you must be born again".......would be confused.
But He's not confused....... You are.
A cult teaches what you are teaching.

How about throwing a few scriptures in to back up your statements.

 

[14meatcc]

There are not two types of Christians. One group are true Christians the other Group needs to take their sign down. This later group is guilty of using God's name in vain. Which is not cursing but using God's name in a useless manner.

It is a rational thought process to believe... it is what we believe that makes the difference. It is not rational to believe that a fallen creature, who is darkness would choose to come to the light and have his/her sins exposed. It is not rational to believe that a fallen creature has the ability or the want to choose Christ. He/she may have the ability to choose a Christ but not the one of Holy Scripture. That Christ they want nothing to do with. (Mat 6:23, John 3:19, 2 Cor 6:14, Col 1:13)

John_1:5 And the light shined into the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.
Rom 3:11 There is none that is understanding, There is none that is seeking after God

The Christ of Holy Scripture, is Sovereign and the author and finisher of Salvation. He is the object of Salvation and the one who makes it possible. God must enable the light to shine into a dead persons heart or there is no desire to go to the Light.

Some believe through the teaching of the scriptures. It's a common approach which causes them to believe that they believe what they are taught to obtain eternal life, its a common fleshly approach to learning, then there are the ones who are shown the truth and the belief of the truth confirmed by the holy is far from rational or common, it's amazing in every way and from every angle and view. It is the sure fire way to head on the FastTrack to give God his glory. True saving faith does nothing less than continually astound you with it's complete awesomeness.

 

[Kidron]

In the beginning was the word .

Let me show you something about your verse.

In the beginning was the Word.

Notice that the W is capitalized. ? This is because its referring to JESUS., as it makes the distinction between God and the Word, who is Christ.

 

[Kidron]

they have received a body that can no longer die; being a son of the resurrection.

Why do you keep obsessing about Angels, on Christian forums?
You do this on other Christian forums as well.

Find something else that's more import to obsess on,.

 

[Kidron]

How about throwing a few scriptures in to back up your statements.

All that call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved.

As many as believed, God gave to them the power to become the Sons of God.

The work of God is that you believe on the one whom God sent.

All that believe in me, .. i give unto you eternal life and you shall never perish

 

[awelight]

Thank you awelight, and I appreciate that you are willing to share your insights. I will digest your reply and see where it
may go from there.

I woke up this morning and realized I had made a serious mistake in my post to you. It must be corrected. Quite honestly, I don't know why I said it.

In making the distinction between the "Wife" and the "Bride", I erred when I placed the Father and the Wife together. I really don't know where my mind was at that moment. So here is the correction.

The Wife in the Old Testament and will be seen again in the Tribulation days, belongs to Jehovah, the Covenant Lord of Israel. The Bride belongs to Jesus Christ as the Lamb. Therefore, both the Wife and the Bride belong to the Second Person of the Godhead. Which through the incarnation, is Jesus Christ. This now harmonizes with this well known verse:

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.

Christ is both fully God and fully man, brought together, in the mystery of the Incarnation.

In His Divinity, The Son of God, is the Covenant Lord of Israel and has a Wife in them. In His humanity, the Son of man, the Lamb of God, will take a Bride. Both the wife and the bride, are composed of those the Father gave to the Son.

Sorry about any confusion this may have caused.

 

[awelight]

When John said He who has the Son has life, did the people who had not yet been regenerated but would be regenerated in the future have life? Yes or no?

So Bob has not been regenerated. But He will be regenerated next Wednesday. Does he possess life right now?

The answer to this question will reveal if you are correct in applying the eternal perspective to this verse.

Because unregenerate, soon to be regenerate Bob has not life. Even though He was foreknown and is one of the Elect, as an unregenerate person, He has not life yet.

In my original statement, I said:

"The fact that this spiritual life in Christ, must be worked out in temporal steps, does not nullify the Eternal reality."

By your question, I see you are still stuck in the Temporal gear. So be it. I will answer on a Temporal level - the steps worked out - from the above sentence but I must say, I thought you already knew where I stood on this.

An Elect person is born into this world physically and is mated to his eternal soul. Conception being the work of a man and a woman - the soul, being the work of God. Being born, he comes forth as a liar. Possessing a fallen nature - he is darkness and at enmity with God. At the appointed time he is regenerated by the Spirit. This alters the nature and makes alive his spirit. He hears the Gospel message and is effected by it. Drawn to Christ, he professes Him as Lord and Savior. Kept in and by the Spirit, he perseveres to the end.

Those are the basic Temporal steps, as you requested. However, this has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

To answer your direct question - From the Temporal perspective, NO. Not until Bob is regenerated.
From the eternal prospective, YES. Because God has bestowed His Grace upon Him, before the world began. As such, the person's time with a darkened nature, is not seen by God because the sins of that person and all of the Elect have already been put away.

You keep missing my basic point. That which began in Eternity and will end in Eternity. This is Eternal Security. You keep worrying about the Temporal aspects - what happens here and before what - can there be time gaps or not? There are answers to these things for sure but they don't really matter. What God purposed in Eternity, WILL take place. Therefore, God having purposed for the Elect, Salvation, it will take place and nothing can stop it, not even by or through the Elect.

Since you asked me a Temporal question, let me ask you an Eternal question. What does this verse mean:

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[awelight]

See, you became a new creature when you were born again. Now look at the verse.

If any man is in Christ… does that mean everyone who is in Christ? Isn’t that what any means?

So if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature.

The aforementioned Bob, who is not regenerate yet, but will be regenerated next week. Is he a new creature?

No

This shows that your answer does not suit the verse.

See, you became a new creature when you were born again. Now look at the verse.

If any man is in Christ… does that mean everyone who is in Christ? Isn’t that what any means?

So if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature.

The aforementioned Bob, who is not regenerate yet, but will be regenerated next week. Is he a new creature?

No

This shows that your answer does not suit the verse.

Is that all you got out of that post? It took me over an hour to put that together and all you got out of it was:

The aforementioned Bob, who is not regenerate yet, but will be regenerated next week. Is he a new creature?

Are you even reading these posts? Am I just wasting time here? I want to be patient with this but am becoming frustrated. If all you want is short and uninteresting answers then just tell me so. No one likes putting effort into something that another does not appreciate.

 

[awelight]

Did you see in the article where the writer specifically said “spoken/written” word?

When did I say that the Gospel regenerates? Never

My position is the same as the writer of the article, who is a monergist. The Spirit regenerates through or by means of the Gospel. Could be that day, could be years later. Read the article carefully. That is exactly what he says

The only reason I reference the article is because you incorrectly called my position synergistic

It’s not.

You want to call yourself a monergist, fine. Personally I hate labels. Your position is unchanged and my position remains the same. Let's move on.