Predestination.

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#63
You mean like using His GPS :LOL:
The bible teaches you choose in one case
Then it teaches God chose in another.
If both have to be true the questions become how do you choose and how did God choose.
I see no other option that satisfies both without denying one or the other.
It not like you have free will and then Jesus forces himself on you. What kind of love would that be?
Is it sufficient to say that God has chosen to save all those that believe the Gospel ,then their destination is guaranteed Glorification. ( The Adoption ..Rom 8.23.) ? Meaning the choice was the 'vehicle 'but not the individual that was chosen . Only those that are 'in Him 'are chosen ? And that we are only 'in Him 'After we believe ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#66
My perspective is that we respond after we are preached the gospel

Prior to that, we were on the road to hell

That is understanding based on living in the time dimension

But in God point of view, he is outside time, he is able to know, the moment we were born, that we would accept him. He could see ahead of time

Thus, from his point of view, we were predestined to be saved the moment we were born
Which verses do you believe say this ?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#69
///Thus, from his point of view, we were predestined to be saved the moment we were born////
I don’t think there is a verse that says exactly that

That is about God living outside time hence, all that you do from birth till death, can be seen by him
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#70
I don’t think there is a verse that says exactly that

That is about God living outside time hence, all that you do from birth till death, can be seen by him
I'm appreciating your approach, but I'm trying to track what your saying to specific verses and context . I think all Christians pretty much acknowledge that God knows all things . Well there's some issues with open theism of course . And a calvinist would say the reason God knows is because He has determined whatsoever comes to pass .
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#71
I'm appreciating your approach, but I'm trying to track what your saying to specific verses and context . I think all Christians pretty much acknowledge that God knows all things . Well there's some issues with open theism of course . And a calvinist would say the reason God knows is because He has determined whatsoever comes to pass .
The real issue is whether Man still has free will, given God is omniscience.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#72
The real issue is whether Man still has free will, given God is omniscience.
I think its best to avoid the Philosophy of it . The bible clearly shows we can freely respond positively to God . We are commanded to choose and believe over and over . I dont believe the bible is asking of things we cannot do or respond to regurading Salvation. Then the bible is clear God knows all things . I don't belive the bible says because he Knows that this is causative.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#74
I'm appreciating your approach, but I'm trying to track what your saying to specific verses and context . I think all Christians pretty much acknowledge that God knows all things . Well there's some issues with open theism of course . And a calvinist would say the reason God knows is because He has determined whatsoever comes to pass .
Define omniscience using Scripture.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#75
Define omniscience using Scripture.
I'm not Arguing ' omniscience '. Just scripture. I'm not starting with a philosophy about Gods attributes or mans freewill . But I know where your going and its a valid point .
 
Jul 6, 2020
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#76
Is it sufficient to say that God has chosen to save all those that believe the Gospel ,then their destination is guaranteed Glorification. ( The Adoption ..Rom 8.23.) ? Meaning the choice was the 'vehicle 'but not the individual that was chosen . Only those that are 'in Him 'are chosen ? And that we are only 'in Him 'After we believe ?
it is just over complicated man made thinking that causes problems.
Is anyone more worthy then another?
God only chooses the good ones?
Perhaps only the real bad ones?
Is God just randomly choosing?
Without reason or care for individual people?
Does God force Himself on some and not on others?
Does God woo some and not try to woo everyone?
Perhaps Gods wooing was unsuccessful for the unbelievers?
Perhaps He just dident want them?
Is sharing the Gospel just a needles thing that we only do to obey since the predestine are predestine?

Man made thinking leads to such confusion.

NO!
The choice is yours and mine.
God gave it to us when He created us in Adam.
The work of the Gospel is yours and mine.
God gave it to us when He created us in Christ Jesus.
In creating us He predestined us to our choices, knowing before hand what they would be.
But for the sake of those who would chose life, God and Jesus and now we too choose to suffer and endure those who would not for the sake of those who would become part of our family of God.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#77
Just give the verses that show predestination and we'll respond. Here is what I found and none of them say we are predestinated for salvation.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

In Romans 8 the predestination is not to be saved, but to be conformed to the image of Christ. And in Ephesians the predestination is to be HEIRS by legally adopting us. Adoption is a legal status that makes you eligible for an inheritance. But I may have missed something.
This is exactly how to study a subject: look at exactly what the verses say. There are no verses that say individuals are predestined to be saved or not to be saved. Nor are there any verses that say individuals are predestined to heaven or to hell.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#78
Nor are there any verses that say individuals are predestined to heaven or to hell.
One could take this a step further. All names are written in the Book of Life until they are blotted out for unbelief, sin, and wickedness.

31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy Book which thou hast written. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my Book. (Exod 32:31-33)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#79
One could take this a step further. All names are written in the Book of Life until they are blotted out for unbelief, sin, and wickedness.

31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy Book which thou hast written. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my Book. (Exod 32:31-33)
Well, the verse you gave does not say that all names are written in the book of life. Maybe other verses do? but not the one you gave.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#80
Well, the verse you gave does not say that all names are written in the book of life. Maybe other verses do? but not the one you gave.
It is implied in the verse provided. Christians need to understand that many things are implied in Scripture.

Who did God say would be blotted out of His Book? Those that sin against Him. And why are names found written in the Book of Life? Because those individuals have received the gift of eternal life. Who are those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life?

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death... For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie... And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 21:8; 22:15;20:15)