Predestination.

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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#81
It is implied in the verse provided. Christians need to understand that many things are implied in Scripture.

Who did God say would be blotted out of His Book? Those that sin against Him. And why are names found written in the Book of Life? Because those individuals have received the gift of eternal life. Who are those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life?

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death... For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie... And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 21:8; 22:15;20:15)
it says He will NOT blot out .
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,314
1,443
113
#82
It is implied in the verse provided. Christians need to understand that many things are implied in Scripture.

Who did God say would be blotted out of His Book? Those that sin against Him. And why are names found written in the Book of Life? Because those individuals have received the gift of eternal life. Who are those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life?

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death... For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie... And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 21:8; 22:15;20:15)
Well, if you want to go by what you say Scripture "implies," you may. I don't. I go by what Scripture states clearly.

Not saying you are wrong about your idea of the book of life, but we must make very clear differences between our ideas of implications from texts, and what the Scriptures actually say.
 

infinitekhanol

Active member
Jul 11, 2020
539
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#83
In Romans 9: 12 - 23, 11: 9, it is written: “For He said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion, so then, it is not of him that wills nor of him that runs but of God that shows mercy. For the scripture says unto Pharaoh , even for this same purpose have I raised you up that I might show my power in you and that my name might be declared throughout the earth. Therefore, has He mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will, He hardened. You will say then unto me, why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His Will? No, but O man, who are you that replies against God? Has not the Porter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor and another vessel unto dishonor? For the children being not yet born neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger”

Some people use these scriptures and such other scriptures, to explain that God ordered or foreordained man’s steps on earth before birth. As such, man has no choice in determining his destiny or fate on earth. They say, God has already chosen those that will be saved and those that will be doomed. The opponents of this belief argue that this line of thought shows God as being partial and unfair in His bestowal of blessings and grace. This school of thought equally believes in the sovereignty of God and the right of God to do as He pleases but states that God gave man the freedom of choice to determine his course of life on earth.

It is needful to state that God created the universe in a properly and orderly manner with a system in place to maintain law and order. This system includes sets of principles and rules of law and regulations to govern and control the activities of the universe including man. These principles continually work together to maintain a state of equilibrium, harmony and order for the general good of mankind. They are consistent and unchangeable. They do not choose who to favor or who not to favor. They are part of creation and are interwoven into events that occur in creation or in time. There is one event to the righteous and to the wicked to the good and to the sinner (Ecclesiastics 9:2).. It is our individual or collective choice of actions that determines what happens to us. The choice of possibilities is open to man; what he chooses therefore makes or mars him. There is a path that leads to life and another that leads to destruction or death. These paths do not intermingle. We choose which path to follow. The path we choose opens us up to what befalls us in life. God finished His creation but the system continues to unfold the creation in our everyday life, ensuring that man is accountable for his actions for as a man sows, so he reaps. This is the divine law.

St Paul said in 2 Timothy 2: 5 that, if a man strives for mastery yet he is not crowned unless he strives lawfully. Therefore, we can say that, it is not of him that wills or runs but of him that wills and runs in the right direction that obtains the crown. If we do not strive lawfully in accordance with the will of God, our striving and struggles will be fruitless and in vain. If we will and run as God directed, we will see His glory manifest in our life. There is no favoritism with God. When we entangle ourselves with the lusts and pleasures of this world, we cannot please God and as we continue on that path, we face the ultimate consequences. But if while on that road we repent of our deeds and turn a new leaf, God’s mercy overflows us. To strive lawfully, we must walk and live with the Truth according to the dictates of God.

Also, it is written, offences will come but woe to that person through which they come. (Luke 17:1) Offences, afflictions, persecutions and the like are strewn in our life’s path to teach, enlighten, chasten, prove, or purify man as well as manifest the mighty power of God. As the scripture says, they can cause either growth or bitterness to our Christian life. The way and manner we respond to them determines the result. To the enlightened mind, they are a way of life that lead to and sustain godliness with the knowledge of our faith that everything happens for good to them who love God. To the wicked or evil minded, they form weapons of warfare to cause stumbling block to fellow men and wound their hearts or cause them to obey their whims and caprices. They cause worldly sorrows to the unenlightened minds that sink them deeper into the world of flesh.

It is evil -- Pride, arrogance, greed, hatred, fear, all kinds of sensuality by virtue of their enslaving and blinding nature that hardens the heart of man. The more uplifted in pride the heart is, for instance, the more the conscience is seared and weak and the heart is hardened in the process against that which is good. It gets to a point where it becomes extremely difficult to change because the whole body is dominated and controlled by the emotions of pride. Every imagination of the heart becomes evil continually in order to protect itself. Moreover, an evil heart is a ready vessel through which offences come. But God turns the wickedness of man into the glory of the righteous through the manifestation of his mighty power.

In the case of Pharaoh and the Israelites of old, God said to Abraham, “know of a surety that your seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs and shall serve them and they shall afflict them four hundred years. And also that nation whom they shall serve will I judge and afterwards shall they come out with great substance (Genesis.15:13-14). Several events happened that led Israel into Egypt and the fulfilment of this word of God. Pharaoh was driven by pride and fear. He feared that the Israelites would multiply in number and rebel against his authority or join league with his enemies to fight him. Thus, he imagined in his heart that the best way to checkmate or deal with them was to exterminate them by murdering their young male children. He was enticed and drawn away by this evil thought that it metamorphosed into his devilish acts. His emotions of pride took over his thoughts and actions. Exodus 5: 2 tells us that Pharaoh did neither know God nor feared him, therefore he could not please God. He was noted to be wicked and evil minded. When we do not have the knowledge of God and do not retain Him in our hearts and thoughts by faith, the heart becomes reprobate and vile and tends towards the flesh. Therefore, it cannot do the will of God because it does not know what His will is in the first place.

Pharaoh chose his own path. Man makes the choice but events in creation work out the expected and appropriate results or consequences of that choice of action not as man wants but in consonance with divine principles and law as ordained by God. As a man sows, so he reaps, but how he reaps is not in man’s hands. Joseph also chose a path not to mess with his master’s wife but obey God’s word instead and was exalted. It is not what befalls us in life that is the problem but what we make out of that which befalls us. Do we sorrow to godliness or to worldliness? Yes, Joseph was sold to slavery by his brothers out of envy but he sorrowed to God and was highly exalted above his brothers and all his peers. The bible tells us that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22). Yes, King David messed up and reaped the consequences of his actions and then sorrowed to godliness and saw the light of God in his life. Yes, I messed up most of my life and sorrowed to repentance and I now see the power of God working in my life. And so are most men and women living a meaningful life in the world today. At one time in their life, they messed up but notwithstanding corrected their footsteps to follow the right direction in God. It is noteworthy that the Pharaoh who lived during the time of Joseph had a good heart and he enjoyed God’s blessings through Joseph. Two Pharaohs with different hearts and different outcomes. One good and the other evil.

God is Omniscient. He knows before the foundation of the earth what choices man would make at any point in time. So, when he makes His dispositions, He makes them with the prescience of the future. Thus, He knew beforehand, the heart of Pharaoh and people like him, what choices they would make in life and has put in place a system to checkmate their lustful actions and pride of life and to reward the goodness of man whilst manifesting His mighty power on earth. God has shown man the way that leads to life and the way that leads to death. It is left for us to choose either life or death. One thing is sure, the way of God is lined with truth, judgment, justice, and mercy. Mercy rejoices over judgment for the righteous and there is no peace for the wicked says the Lord. The wicked is snared by their wickedness. To choose life is to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and might and to obey His word, cleave unto Him as a belt cleaves unto our waist, knowing that He alone is our life and the length of our days. And, also to love our neighbor as ourselves.












 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#84
Be not removed from the simplicity found in Christ.

God predetermined before he cast down the world to receive every man that places faith into his Son Jesus.

That is the predetermined election of God in a nutshell. There are NO scriptures, in context, that state God chose Man A for heaven and Man B thru Z for hell.

WHOSOVER WILL is clear and God would have ALL MEN be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth!
 

infinitekhanol

Active member
Jul 11, 2020
539
97
28
#85
As pertaining to the election, there are three issues or questions to be addressed.

1. who are the elects? who are those people called? who are the chosen?
2. what is God's purpose of election?
3.what does it mean that the elder shall serve the younger?

Jesus said, no man can come to me except the Father which has sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44). He went on to say “it is written in the Prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard and has learned of the father comes unto him. (John 6:45). In other words, it is written, everyone shall be taught of God but it is only those who have heard and learned of God will the father draw to him. This places a personal responsibility on man to seek, learn and know God and acknowledge Him as God in order to be called. For us to know God, we must be acquainted with His word. And to be acquainted with His word, we must first hear His word.

In the parable of the sower, Jesus categorized people that hear the word into four groups:
Group 1
Those who hear the word but have no interest in it or place any value in the things of God. The word means nothing to them. Like Esau, they are profane. Because their heart is waxed gross towards God, they have no understanding of the word of God. On their own accord, they walk away from God.
Group 2
These receive the word with joy and believe for a while and because they have no depth or strong foundation in the word, they fall away when faced with trials, persecutions or tribulations or necessities. Many of us are so interested and zealous about the things of God but cannot withstand trials and tribulations because our faith in God is faint.
Group 3.
Yet others receive the word with joy but because of the care and pleasures of the world and deceitfulness of riches, they become unfruitful. They prefer to revel in the lusts of the flesh than in the things of God. They would rather choose iniquity than affliction. Group 4
The final group are those who, with honest and good heart having heard the word, keep it and with patience and faith walk with the word to bring in fruits in abundance. No matter what stumbling block they face on the path, they persevere and remain faithful in their search and worship of the true God in sincerity of heart. They love God and in spite of the narrow road of the kingdom, they find themselves in the path because they have willingly chosen to seek, know and follow the living God.

Jesus said, because straight is the gate and narrow is the way which leads unto life, few that be that find it. Many follow the wide gate and broad way that leads to destruction. It is therefore a choice. We become elects of God by choice. God chooses us as His elects in view of the choices we make. Also, in Romans 2: 6 - 11; we read, who (God) will render to everyone according to his deeds. To them who by patient continuance in well doing, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He gives eternal life but unto them who do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, He visits with indignation and wrath. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that does evil but glory honor and peace to every man that works good for there is no respect of persons with God.

It is righteousness that sets us on the right path of God to be called the sons of God (the elect), for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. God is righteous, so whosoever that does righteousness is of God. And whosoever is of God does not commit sin for His (God’s) seed remains in him. And he cannot sin because he is born of God. Whosoever that does not righteousness is not of God but of the devil. In this is the children of God manifested and the children of the devil who hold the truth in unrighteousness (1 John 3:9 – 10). So we conclude that the Elects are those who choose to do the will of God. We are all children of God but the path we choose in life either of righteousness or unrighteousness differentiates us -- the good and the bad.

The paths – the one that leads to life (the way of righteousness) and the one that leads to death (the way of ungodliness) and the Principles, the laws guiding them were foreordained by God from the foundation of the earth. The path we choose as said before opens us up to what happens to us according to the purpose of election of God from the foundation of the world. We become children of the devil by our choice of actions, our lifestyle and not by God’s will or design, for when we repent of those actions, God welcomes us back to the fold as His beloved children.

God’s purpose on earth is for His Will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. And the only way this can be achieved is for us His children to be holy and perfect as He is. Thus, His injunction to walk before Him and be perfect (Genesis.17:1), When we rebel against His words and contempt His counsel, we follow our heart’s lustful desires and become defiled by our own works. The choice of walking before Him or rebelling against Him is put in our hands. There is no compulsion of any sort. The only checkmating effect are His laws and judgment that maintain a reward of eternal life for those who love Him and obey His words and a consequence of self-destruction to those who commit evil for it is the evil of their hands that will destroy them (Psalm 9:16; 34:21).

This judgment He established before the foundation of the world. Therefore, whosoever that walks with God on the path of righteousness to do His will is called and predestinated from the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son, chosen to be justified and glorified. Others who choose otherwise were earmarked from the foundation of the world for eternal destruction. One road leads to life eternal and another leads to destruction. We get what we choose by our lifestyle. What God looks for is the integrity of heart. He chooses us even in our sinful state once we beckon on Him with sincere hearts and He walks with us all the way knowing that the love in our hearts will eventually triumph over sin for He sees the innermost parts of our hearts and the end from the beginning. God hates hypocrites.

God has made known unto us the mystery of His Will – that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even to Him (Ephesians 1: 9 10). Thus, the necessity to put on earth the difference between the good and the evil for it is only the good that will be gathered alongside the heavenly hosts for all evil shall be subdued and be subject unto good. Let us therefore awake to righteousness and sin no more for he that walks righteously shall be saved but he that is perverse in his ways shall fall (Proverbs 28:18).

It is written that the first man Adam became a living soul (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) whose life depends on the life giving spirit, the word of God and subject to freedom of choice. God said to Adam, you can eat the fruit of all the trees of the garden including the tree of life but the fruit of the tree of good and evil you shall not eat for the day you eat of it you shall die (Genesis 2:16, 17). This follows then that the life of the living soul Adam, is dependent on obedience to the word of God as confirmed in Deuteronomy 8 : 3 and Mathew 4 : 4, that by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God shall man live. Without the life giving spirit in the word, the living soul tends to vanity, with lustful desires driven by passions of pride, arrogance, greed, self-conceit or the will of the flesh. The soul sins and becomes mortal and flesh. It becomes more preoccupied with material tendencies than the Spiritual.

It is also written that the second Adam came as a quickening spirit, as a life giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45). Jesus said, it is the spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing. The words I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life. (John 6:63). Again, we read in John 1: 1 – 4 that, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men. Hence, without this life, there is no light. The living soul gropes in and manifests evidences of darkness and misses eternal life as the story of the first Adam in the garden of Eden shows. The essentiality of the soul is the life giving spirit in the Word. Thus, it is through the spirit in the word of God that the soul can mortify the deeds of the flesh and gain immortality or eternal life. It is through the Spirit that mortality gives way to immortality and corruption to incorruption and death swallowed up in victory.

To us Christians, this second Adam was revealed as our Lord Jesus Christ. The Word made flesh (John 1:13), who came to remove the sins of the world originating from the first Adam thereby breaking down the middle wall of partition between the spirit and the living soul having slain the enemy thereby which is sin, bringing reconciliation and peace, making both one in unity. Having come in the form of Adam, (man), he showed us that it is possible to live sinless on earth. It is possible to be in union with God while on earth. It is possible to be Christ like.

But to do this, as Jesus showed, the living soul must be subjected to the Spirit. It must do the biddings of the Spirit and follow his guideline alone. It must serve and be in obedience to the Spirit. “The elder must serve the younger”. Man first bore the image of the flesh, the earthy, (the elder) and must now put on the heavenly image, the spiritual image, the image and likeness of God which is our true image as God’s children. We must now bear the Christ like image and no longer the Adamic image of the flesh. The flesh must give way to the Spirit.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,146
3,691
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#86
Why are there people when discussing predestination bring up salvation? Salvation is never the issue with predestination. Predestination is a doctrine to those who are already saved and in Christ. Oh Boy!
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#87
No, the onus is on you to show me where any of those people were not saved
remember, this is before time began, and Paul said us so we individually where chosen

if I am predestined to those things, and hose things are impossible without salvation, then it would be impossible to be predestined apart from salvation .
I cannot show you what is not said. I'll let my posting stand because doctrine is set on plain statements, not on an argument based on extrapolation. A train of human logic is enticing, but by the same logic, you would say; Jesus gives life. The Jews looked upon the serpent Moses lifted up and lived. The serpent gives life. Jesus is a serpent! The serpent enticed Eve. Jesus enticed Eve. Perish the thought - but human logic it is.

I repeat; There is not a single scripture that says that salvation is by predestination.