Rapture= false teaching

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shad

Guest
Corrie Ten Boom wrote about the pre-trib rapture, how it made the Chinese believers unprepared for the great tribulation. As herself, went through persecution, under the Nazi's, was not ashamed or afraid to die for Christ.
If you are such a firm believer in the post tribulation rapture of the church, why don't you share with us what you are doing to prepare for the great tribulation. The first 3.5 years you won't have much tribulation but when Satan enters the antichrist what chance to you have to survive the last 3.5 years and how have you prepared yourself for that? Does your planning include survival? How do you plan on not taking the mark of the beast, leaving you without the ability to buy or sell?

If you and 'watchmen' are right their will only be a few true Christians that will be practicing holiness and find the straight gate because of a great apostasy, so can you count on the Jews for help? How are you going to plan and keep yourself from falling away and losing your salvation? If you lose your salvation during the great tribulation then all that preparation is for naught, as well as all those years as a true believer. It would probably be wiser in the long run if when you see yourself starting to fall away that you would cut your losses and give up your life. That way you can insure that your salvation is still intact so you can make it. I hope you have what it takes to go through the great tribulation, especially when you get to the wrath of God.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Re: Rev 3:10

Being kept safe from, does not mean raptured away from.

You obviously haven't studied the origins of your belief.

But keep consulting Charlie Church Mouse if you wish.

I'm not afraid to use early christian writings or bible commentaries. Here's a few anyway, to confirm your interpretation of Rev 3:10 is wrong.

Barnes (american presbyterian pastor and theologian):

I also will keep thee - That is, I will so keep you that you shall not sink under the trials which will prove a severe temptation to many. This does not mean that they would be actually kept from calamity of all kinds, but that they would be kept from the temptation of apostasy in calamity. He would give them grace to bear up under trials with a Christian spirit, and in such a manner that their salvation should not be endangered.

Gill (baptist minister and calvinist theologian)

I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth; this hour seems to refer not to any of the vials which will be poured out on the antichristian states, but to some affliction and distress which will befall the reformed churches, and will light upon the outward court worshippers among them It seems to be the last struggle of the beast of Rome, and to denote some violent and sharp persecution, such as what Daniel mentions, that never was before nor since; but it will be but short, but one hour, the twenty fourth part of a prophetical day or year, perhaps about a fortnight; yet it will be very extensive; it will reach all the world, the whole Roman empire, and all that dwell upon the earth, that are called by the name of Christians, and will try them, whether they are so or not; Christ will now have his fan in his hand, and purge his floor of all his formal professors and hypocrites; and it will be known who are his true churches, and pure members; and these he will keep close to himself, and preserve safe amidst all the distress and confusion the world will be in. This cannot refer to the bloody persecutions under the Roman emperors, for from those the church at Philadelphia was not preserved. We read (s) of twelve members of it that suffered with Polycarp,


Matthew Henry (Presbyterian)

Rev 3:7-13
The same Lord Jesus has the key of government and authority in and over the church. He opens a door of opportunity to his churches; he opens a door of utterance to his ministers; he opens a door of entrance, opens the heart. He shuts the door of heaven against the foolish, who sleep away their day of grace; and against the workers of iniquity, how vain and confident soever they may be. The church in Philadelphia is commended; yet with a gentle reproof. Although Christ accepts a little strength, yet believers must not rest satisfied in a little, but strive to grow in grace, to be strong in faith, giving glory to God. Christ can discover this his favour to his people, so that their enemies shall be forced to acknowledge it. This, by the grace of Christ, will soften their enemies, and make them desire to be admitted into communion with his people. Christ promises preserving grace in the most trying times, as the reward of past faithfulness; To him that hath shall be given. Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace, shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation; and the same Divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace, will make them faithful in times of persecution. Christ promises a glorious reward to the victorious believer. He shall be a monumental pillar in the temple of God; a monument of the free and powerful grace of God; a monument that shall never be defaced or removed. On this pillar shall be written the new name of Christ; by this will appear, under whom the believer fought the good fight, and came off victorious.

John Wesley:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience - The word of Christ is indeed a word of patience. I also will keep thee - O happy exemption from that spreading calamity! From the hour of temptation - So that thou shalt not enter into temptation; but it shall pass over thee. The hour denotes the short time of its continuance; that is, at any one place. At every one it was very sharp, though short; wherein the great tempter was not idle, Rev_2:10. Which hour shall come upon the whole earth - The whole Roman empire. It went over the Christians, and over the Jews and heathens; though in a very different manner. This was the time of the persecution under the seemingly virtuous emperor Trajan. The two preceding persecutions were under those monsters, Nero and Domitian; but Trajan was so admired for his goodness, and his persecution was of such a nature, that it was a temptation indeed, and did throughly try them that dwelt upon the earth.

So we see that all of these old protestant theologians did not believe those spoken of in Rev 3:10 would be raptured. I quoted from protestant theologians pre 1800's deliberately - because they have not been corrupted with pre-tribulation heresy and to show you that pre-tribulation view is not a commonly held view in christianity, going back even to Luther and Calvin. Go back further than the reformation, and the pre-trib view is almost non-existant. So then for you to claim that it is clearly taught in the bible, despite trained theologians believing otherwise and early church fathers, is firm evidence that your interpretational methods and subjective revelations are suspect.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
Re: Rev 3:10

Being kept safe from, does not mean raptured away from.

You obviously haven't studied the origins of your belief.
No, unlike you I don't subscribe to man made doctrines. There aren't origins other then God's word. I was being a bit facetious, but obviously you and your 'symbolism' doctrines weren't right once again. I didn't really want any commentaries, God's word speaks for itself. You shouldn't want man to poison His word with commentaries. Not to mention you probably just googled that.
 
Oct 8, 2009
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This is interesting please read this!!

You know what I'm beginning to think. The economy has been going down this last year, what if and this is just a thought, we are right on the start or the edge of the Great Tribulation.

You know that movie 2012 what if that is a decoy to something tragic that is going to happen around that time. In Revelation it says that 1/3 of mankind will be wiped of the face of the earth. What if that was the sixth trumpet and the start of the final 3 1/2 years.

Know hear is what is interesting there are a series of solar eclipses that are predicted to happen from the years 2014-2017 . Now the Bible says Imediatly after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkend. Matthew 24:29

Just something to think about.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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If you are such a firm believer in the post tribulation rapture of the church, why don't you share with us what you are doing to prepare for the great tribulation. The first 3.5 years you won't have much tribulation but when Satan enters the antichrist what chance to you have to survive the last 3.5 years and how have you prepared yourself for that? Does your planning include survival? How do you plan on not taking the mark of the beast, leaving you without the ability to buy or sell?
Most importantly, we can prepare spiritually - keeping a right relationship with God, turning from all known sin, and building ourselves up in the most holy faith. (Jude 1:20), trusting in God to preserve us to the end. Not being too weighed down by the care of this world, as you less likely to accept the mark of the beast then. Christ did teach:

Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.



Prepare for persecution - resolve to not deny Christ. Read the writings of the persecuted to familiarise yourself with what it involves. Support a organisation which supports the persecuted believers around the world today.

If we want to we can prepare physically - invest into gold currency, not paper or plastic. Store water, non-perishable food, medicinal items, blankets etc. Learn how to survive in the wilderness, and even how to grow your own food and farm animals.





If you and 'watchmen' are right their will only be a few true Christians that will be practicing holiness and find the straight gate because of a great apostasy, so can you count on the Jews for help? How are you going to plan and keep yourself from falling away and losing your salvation? If you lose your salvation during the great tribulation then all that preparation is for naught, as well as all those years as a true believer. It would probably be wiser in the long run if when you see yourself starting to fall away that you would cut your losses and give up your life. That way you can insure that your salvation is still intact so you can make it. I hope you have what it takes to go through the great tribulation, especially when you get to the wrath of God.
I understand it would be hard for the OSAS and pre-trib believer, to comprehend the concepts of God's faithfulness, protection and preservation, if you are guaranteed a ticket to heaven no matter what. That said, if you do find yourself in the tribulation, don't ask to share the resources the post-tribbers have if you are unprepared - let God rapture you.
 
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No, unlike you I don't subscribe to man made doctrines. There aren't origins other then God's word. I was being a bit facetious, but obviously you and your 'symbolism' doctrines weren't right once again. I didn't really want any commentaries, God's word speaks for itself. You shouldn't want man to poison His word with commentaries. Not to mention you probably just googled that.
Why don't you google the origins of the pre-trib rapture in the church, I gave you a link to an online book to read before. Read and learn, no excuse for ignorance really.

God's word can't speak for itself - someone has to interpret it, in this case, you really blew it on that Revelations verse, so how can you interpret anything else right ?

Someone is lying here re: the pre-trib rapture being clear in scripture, and it's not the old protestant theologians who knew scripture inside out.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
Prepare for persecution - resolve to not deny Christ. Read the writings of the persecuted to familiarise yourself with what it involves. Support a organisation which supports the persecuted believers around the world today.

If we want to we can prepare physically - invest into gold currency, not paper or plastic. Store water, non-perishable food, medicinal items, blankets etc. Learn how to survive in the wilderness, and even how to grow your own food and farm animals.
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lol wow.... wow lol.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
Why don't you google the origins of the pre-trib rapture in the church, I gave you a link to an online book to read before. Read and learn, no excuse for ignorance really.

God's word can't speak for itself - someone has to interpret it, in this case, you really blew it on that Revelations verse, so how can you interpret anything else right ?
You are literally obsessed with doctrines of men. You need to read the BIBLE, not some ancient doctrine you know absolutely nothing about. Sad to see a racist, ignorant Christian.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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So the best you can do is come back with is insults? Doesn't surprise me at all. Good luck with learning from Charlie Church Mouse and the left behind video games lol I for one do consult men of God who know the Word better than me like theologians.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
So the best you can do is come back with is insults? Doesn't surprise me at all. Good luck with learning from Charlie Church Mouse and the left behind video games lol.
Do I need to point this out to you? Or do you realize you are insulting me, or trying to? Making you a hypocrite and by the way, I don't believe in luck. It comes from the word "lucifer".

That's the problem when you talk to people who aren't firm in their beliefs.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Firstly, the word luck doesn't come from Lucifer - that's another bit of misinformation you can educate yourself about. Just google or wikipedia.

Secondly, I thought you would like the left behind games website, and charlie church mouse, you can play the video games all you like to keep you indoctrinated.

You reject the writings of old commentaries but are quite happy to play the left behind video game probably - you might even enjoy it because you can shoot people if they don't convert. Frankly, if you continue to reject the writings of more knowledgable learned men of God, your level of understanding will only ever be at "charlie church mouse" level.
 
Oct 8, 2009
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I'm glad i'm not the only one who believes in post trib. One of the things that helped convert me is I did a history study on it. And it became popular in 1829 ..I think.. I can't remember the guys name and then Tim Lahaye published a book on it and sold millions of copies. The of course Kirt Camron's Left Behind.

See what is is I think is Christians are just to spoild. We are nothing even close to the early church. The apostles completely dedicated their lives for the sake of Christ and they were still marterd.. What makes you think that God is going to save spoiled brats like us from tribulation.

We should be glad to suffer for a short while. And maybe during that time win a few people to Christ.

Remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you.....John 15:20a
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
Firstly, the word luck doesn't come from Lucifer - that's another bit of misinformation you can educate yourself about. Just google or wikipedia.

Secondly, I thought you would like the left behind games website, and charlie church mouse, you can play the video games all you like to keep you indoctrinated.

You reject the writings of old commentaries but are quite happy to play the left behind video game probably - you might even enjoy it because you can shoot people if they don't convert. Frankly, if you continue to reject the writings of more knowledgable learned men of God, your level of understanding will only ever be at "charlie church mouse" level.
Once again. Seeing how you can't quote a single scripture of God's Word to support your beliefs. You quote words of men. Furthermore I have no idea what you are talking about, and have absolutely no clue who Charlie Church Mouse is. You need to really learn to trust God.. And let God be true and every man a liar. You can trust all your "great learned friends" all you want. I will trust the apostle Paul and the bible.

2 Corinthians 11
5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.
6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested among you in all things.
7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge?
8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you.
9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself.
10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows!
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
 
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Exactly timjim, that's how I came from a pre-trib to a post-trib understanding. And the church took us to overpriced movies in the cinema of the left behind series. It's indoctrination, that's all it is. Magazines and books publish it.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Once again. Seeing how you can't quote a single scripture of God's Word to support your beliefs. You quote words of men. Furthermore I have no idea what you are talking about, and have absolutely no clue who Charlie Church Mouse is. You need to really learn to trust God.. And let God be true and every man a liar. You can trust all your "great learned friends" all you want. I will trust the apostle Paul and the bible.

Go to www.leftbehindgames.com, and watch the video. Click charlie church mouse.
It's useless anyway posting links it seems since you are close minded to other views and don't look at them anyway.

Yeah good luck with trusting yourself mate, you can't even interpret passages of scripture like you posted in Rev 3, right.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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And it became popular in 1829 ..I think.. I can't remember the guys name and then Tim Lahaye published a book on it and sold millions of copies. The of course Kirt Camron's Left Behind.
It's bad enough that they teach false doctrine, even worse is they profit from it - money that could have gone to suppport the persecuted.
 
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NoahsMom

Guest
Personally, its probably a insult to God to see anyone profess to love him and want to know and adhere to his word and call anyone a ignorant, racist christian....sorry, I never chatagorized those words as goin together, but to each his own i guess. Healthy debate is healthy debate, mud slingin on the other hand, or feeling like you have to defend your walk with God to ANYONE other than the Lord himself is something I totally dont get, I mean sure if you come in here and air your beliefs and someone dis-agrees, theres bound to be heated discussions, maybe even differance of opinions.....but how we treat ppl we dont even know, havent even met, kinda says something about how we love the Lord, whom we have yet to meet personally, or see physically. Be careful with your words, once said, they cant be taken back. Ive learned the hard way myself a few times.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
Go to www.leftbehindgames.com, and watch the video. Click charlie church mouse.
It's useless anyway posting links it seems since you are close minded to other views and don't look at them anyway.
Right.. I'm close minded :).. Quoting websites is still quoting man.. Heh.. Oh well this is starting to become a useless argument. Or has been.

Thanks for keeping me amused though mate.

Personally, its probably a insult to God to see anyone profess to love him and want to know and adhere to his word and call anyone a ignorant, racist christian....sorry, I never chatagorized those words as goin together, but to each his own i guess. Healthy debate is healthy debate, mud slingin on the other hand, or feeling like you have to defend your walk with God to ANYONE other than the Lord himself is something I totally dont get, I mean sure if you come in here and air your beliefs and someone dis-agrees, theres bound to be heated discussions, maybe even differance of opinions.....but how we treat ppl we dont even know, havent even met, kinda says something about how we love the Lord, whom we have yet to meet personally, or see physically. Be careful with your words, once said, they cant be taken back. Ive learned the hard way myself a few times.
Thanks, sorry for calling you racist and ignorant Snail. Even though you were racial profiling and making ignorant comments.
 
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shad

Guest
Re: Rev 3:10


So we see that all of these old protestant theologians did not believe those spoken of in Rev 3:10 would be raptured. I quoted from protestant theologians pre 1800's deliberately - because they have not been corrupted with pre-tribulation heresy and to show you that pre-tribulation view is not a commonly held view in christianity, going back even to Luther and Calvin. Go back further than the reformation, and the pre-trib view is almost non-existant. So then for you to claim that it is clearly taught in the bible, despite trained theologians believing otherwise and early church fathers, is firm evidence that your interpretational methods and subjective revelations are suspect.
It is no surprise that many, in the early church or at any time during the dispensation of the church age, did not see the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ before the great tribulation. Not even the OT prophets could see anything about the church and bride of Christ, because it was hidden from them and remained that way until it was revealed to Paul as a mystery. The other apostles understood very little about the body and bride of Christ in their own churches.

Paul was the one who taught it and both Jews and Gentiles had problems with it. Jesus hinted about it but did not have it taught until he revealed it to Paul. There is much confusion today in the church because Satan has been given a place to establish a stronghold with his doctrine. It is in the scriptures but Satan has blinded the minds of many because it reveals his defeat in having no authority over the body and bride of Christ that has been redeemed by the blood of Christ and made ready for the bridegroom. So many have given you the scriptures on this but you refuse and those scriptures have just slipped away.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Thankyou shad, for your honesty - that the pre-trib rapture is not found in the early church or well understood by old testament prophets. That is strange though because Pastor Keith posted something from Daniel before, and all of the end times stuff in Revelation comes from Daniel.

You've just shown us that , despite the 12 apostles walking and talking with Christ personally, important relevations regarding the end times were only delivered to the apostle Paul, years after Christ's death.

Which brings me back to what I said a long time ago - are we following Christ and the 12 apostles or Paul?