Rapture= false teaching

[Thaddaeus]

It isn't hard to tell they are two separate events? The bible declares they are the same. Why would you think anything outside of what scripture tells us.

Da 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Da 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Here both some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt will awake, not go up to be with Him in the clouds but will awake, nothing also about the ones that are still alive just the ones that sleep in the dust of the earth

does this sound anything like This:

where those that are asleep in Christ not those that are unsaved that face an everlasting contempt. but those in Christ will be raise first and be caught up/ raptured to be with Him in the clouds and not only those that are asleep but those which are alive shall be caught up/ raptured with the ones that are asleep to be with Him forever
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


hey watchman God just showed me this please take note here if 1thes.4:13-18 is tellling about His 2nd coming and about the resurrection where that both the lost and saved will be judge then Your doctrine preaches that all will be In heaven and none cast out for 1 thes . clearly says that all taken at this event will be with the Lord forever. have you ever noticed that, look Dude


and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Praise the Lord . looks like you may have to change your doctrine on the rapture or either your doctrine on salvation, do you realy want to preach that all lost and saved will be with the Lord forever up in the heavens

 

[Definition_Christ]

Where did Jesus say it would be two events?

Yeshua spoke to Paul through the Holy Spirit, it's right in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.

Oh.....

John 16
2 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Do you think they would be able to BEAR hearing about the rapture? Yeshua obviously didn't think so!

 

[MahogonySnail]

Yeah that whole, you can't prove a negative doesn't really work with Scripture. Because you can prove they have at least one different aspect. Meaning you do at least one evidence saying they are different. And absolutely no evidence saying or even hinting they are the same. A similarity doesn't count as evidence. It's just pointing out they "look the same, sound the same, but are NOT the same".

I would think it is the job of the pretribbers to show irrefutable evidence from early church history, scripture, and perhaps other sources, that it is the correct view. Considering that a post trib view, or no trib view, is the "default" position.
Pre trib is the new doctrine buddy, so that means you have to try harder to prove it. Pre trib is certainly not a unamimous view amongst christianity worldwide - particularly those believers persecuted for their faith around the world today. Pre-trib is usually an american comfortable sunday church christian white man's belief. No one in other countries who are severely persecuted for their faith are duped into thinking that God is obliged to take them up to the sky, nor are they so fearful of martyrdom that they must believe in rapture. Now that's a true Christian.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Da 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Da 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Here both some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt will awake, not go up to be with Him in the clouds but will awake, nothing also about the ones that are still alive just the ones that sleep in the dust of the earth

does this sound anything like This:

where those that are asleep in Christ not those that are unsaved that face an everlasting contempt. but those in Christ will be raise first and be caught up/ raptured to be with Him in the clouds and not only those that are asleep but those which are alive shall be caught up/ raptured with the ones that are asleep to be with Him forever
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


hey watchman God just showed me this please take note here if 1thes.4:13-18 is tellling about His 2nd coming and about the resurrection where that both the lost and saved will be judge then Your doctrine preaches that all will be In heaven and none cast out for 1 thes . clearly says that all taken at this event will be with the Lord forever. have you ever noticed that, look Dude


and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Praise the Lord . looks like you may have to change your doctrine on the rapture or either your doctrine on salvation, do you realy want to preach that all lost and saved will be with the Lord forever up in the heavens

Wow.. Praise God.. So cool... I just posted Scripture talking about
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. "

Amen.. The Holy Spirit is still guiding us into the truth! That is very deep insight you have there.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Amen.. The Holy Spirit is still guiding us into the truth! That is very deep insight you have there.

Yes, but the Spirit has been guiding you into the truth only since about 1800's would you believe, as far as the pretrib rapture is concerned LOL.

 

[Definition_Christ]

I would think it is the job of the pretribbers to show irrefutable evidence from early church history, scripture, and perhaps other sources, that it is the correct view. Considering that a post trib view, or no trib view, is the "default" position.
Pre trib is the new doctrine buddy, so that means you have to try harder to prove it. Pre trib is certainly not a unamimous view amongst christianity worldwide - particularly those believers persecuted for their faith around the world today. Pre-trib is usually an american comfortable sunday church christian white man's belief. No one in other countries who are severely persecuted for their faith are duped into thinking that God is obliged to take them up to the sky, nor are they so fearful of martyrdom that they must believe in rapture. Now that's a true Christian.

Are you racist by any chance "comfortable sunday church christian white man's belief"? I can tell you are very ignorant and think I have to prove anything to you? No.. I already showed you in Scripture. You are the one who has to prove they are the same event. That is not pointing our similarities any third grader could do. You have absolutely no proof. You can stand behind "early church" or MAN all you want. You are not abiding in God's word NOR have ANY proof or any evidence for your doctrine. You know the whole "do not to think beyond what is written" ... Yeah that applies for you too.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Yes, but the Spirit has been guiding you into the truth only since about 1800's would you believe, as far as the pretrib rapture is concerned LOL.

John 16
2 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Not to mention you are going with man's word and not the bible. Seeing you have no proof whatsoever for your doctrine. Just the other day you were trying to say Paul "was contradicting Jesus", saying people who believe the rapture are followers of Paul.. Hah, how funny.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Are you racist by any chance "comfortable sunday church christian white man's belief"? I can tell you are very ignorant and think I have to prove anything to you? No.. I already showed you in Scripture. You are the one who has to prove they are the same event. That is not pointing our similarities any third grader could do. You have absolutely no proof. You can stand behind "early church" or MAN all you want. You are not abiding in God's word NOR have ANY proof or any evidence for your doctrine. You know the whole "do not to think beyond what is written" ... Yeah that applies for you too.

Well it is a white man's belief, since it started in England I believe, around 1800's, a few suggested it before that in the 1700's... perhaps with links to Germany as well, through the catholic apostolic church, and now most people who teach it are American, probably white Americans who've never had a dose of real persecution in their life, and Americans who like to make video games or movies about the pre-trib rapture, see the left behind game.

Corrie Ten Boom wrote about the pre-trib rapture, how it made the Chinese believers unprepared for the great tribulation. As herself, went through persecution, under the Nazi's, was not ashamed or afraid to die for Christ.

As an ex-pre-tribber myself , I understand very well the pre-trib argument and its origins. It's a shame that the pre-tribbers themselves don't understand it fully. You're yet to provide a convincing argument that it is the long held view from early christianity. If you can't, then yours is a last days heresy or false doctrine that scripture warns about. I mean, that's why we believe in the Trinity right? It has its origins in the early church, at the council of Nicea...so we know its trustworthy. Otherwise, you may as well be a modalist or something.

So while your playing left behind video games and encouraging others in your comfortable white man's heresy, real believers are being persecuted in overseas countries who are not so naive to believe in such a hypothetical and unrealistic pre-trib rapture view. Those left behind movies and games really made me laugh.

 

[Definition_Christ]

So if I can get this straight, without judging you.. You self-admitted and I could quote you if you'd like... Paul was "contradicting Jesus" for writing 1 Thes 4, you mock people when they get revelation from the Lord. You choose Early church doctrines over the bible.. (While admitting Paul was writing about the rapture, I might add) and you say the rapture is a new belief?

 

[MahogonySnail]

So if I can get this straight, without judging you.. You self-admitted and I could quote you if you'd like... Paul was "contradicting Jesus" for writing 1 Thes 4, you mock people when they get revelation from the Lord. You choose Early church doctrines over the bible.. (While admitting Paul was writing about the rapture, I might add) and you say the rapture is a new belief

Paul didn't contradict Jesus, Jesus said what he said, and you have yet to provide one scripture where Christ said he would be coming twice, or there would be a secret rapture that is a separate event to his second coming.

you mock people when they get revelation from the Lord

So you do admit that this doctrine comes by subjective personal revelation and not objective facts from scripture and history ? No scripture is of private interpretation, so there's your problem.

You choose Early church doctrines over the bible

The bible is early church writings, and many of the people who wrote those early church writings that I read, did actually contribute to choosing the canon of scripture I believe. So, go figure.

The rapture is a new belief - you have yet to provide evidence otherwise. But I guess that would be hard for you if you don't read about christian history and early christian writings.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Well it is a white man's belief, since it started in England I believe, around 1800's, a few suggested it before that in the 1700's... perhaps with links to Germany as well, through the catholic apostolic church, and now most people who teach it are American, probably white Americans who've never had a dose of real persecution in their life, and Americans who like to make video games or movies about the pre-trib rapture, see the left behind game.

Corrie Ten Boom wrote about the pre-trib rapture, how it made the Chinese believers unprepared for the great tribulation. As herself, went through persecution, under the Nazi's, was not ashamed or afraid to die for Christ.

As an ex-pre-tribber myself , I understand very well the pre-trib argument and its origins. It's a shame that the pre-tribbers themselves don't understand it fully. You're yet to provide a convincing argument that it is the long held view from early christianity. If you can't, then yours is a last days heresy or false doctrine that scripture warns about. I mean, that's why we believe in the Trinity right? It has its origins in the early church, at the council of Nicea...so we know its trustworthy. Otherwise, you may as well be a modalist or something.

So while your playing left behind video games and encouraging others in your comfortable white man's heresy, real believers are being persecuted in overseas countries who are not so naive to believe in such a hypothetical and unrealistic pre-trib rapture view. Those left behind movies and games really made me laugh.

Surprisingly that didn't offend me at all because I know you are racist and ignorant. So I am not going to continue arguing with you. You obviously choose man over God's "infallible" Word... So let the blind lead the blind, I suppose. The whole "I used to be this or that" thing really has no bearing on anyone. Just because you used to believe in Santa Claus doesn't make me think you are foolish, it just means you were mislead.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Paul didn't contradict Jesus, Jesus said what he said, and you have yet to provide one scripture where Christ said he would be coming twice, or there would be a secret rapture that is a separate event to his second coming.



So you do admit that this doctrine comes by subjective personal revelation and not objective facts from scripture and history ? No scripture is of private interpretation, so there's your problem.



The bible is early church writings, and many of the people who wrote those early church writings that I read, did actually contribute to choosing the canon of scripture I believe. So, go figure.

The rapture is a new belief - you have yet to provide evidence otherwise. But I guess that would be hard for you if you don't read about christian history and early christian writings.

You're right Paul didn't contradict Yeshua, he was led by the Holy Spirit to write about the rapture. You said the other day Paul was "contradicting Jesus", not me. That shows me you must have just come to believe in post-trib and obviously have no evidence to support your views. Although your doctrines are very flawed you are still a brother in Christ. Unless you use your heretic 'symbolism' doctrines, where 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4, it just symbolizes something extremely unbiblical.

So all you can do, is point out similarities between the second coming and the rapture. Similarities don't make something the same. I'm sure you don't even believe in a second coming of Christ, you probably believe it's symbolic of some sort.

 

[happynGod]

Hmmm, I am just going to be ready for judgment day. Live each day as if He is coming today! enough said.

 

[MahogonySnail]

You're right Paul didn't contradict Yeshua, he was led by the Holy Spirit to write about the rapture. You said the other day Paul was "contradicting Jesus", not me. That shows me you must have just come to believe in post-trib and obviously have no evidence to support your views. Although your doctrines are very flawed you are still a brother in Christ. Unless you use your heretic 'symbolism' doctrines, where 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4, it just symbolizes something extremely unbiblical.

So all you can do, is point out similarities between the second coming and the rapture. Similarities don't make something the same. I'm sure you don't even believe in a second coming of Christ, you probably believe it's symbolic of some sort.

Your basically saying that Paul gave more revelation than Christ!
I ask you again, and no pre-tribber has given me a straight answer yet, where does Christ teach a pre-trib rapture?


This online book is a very good study,

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm

I'd hate you to be ignorant of the origins of the belief you which you profess.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Surprisingly that didn't offend me at all because I know you are racist and ignorant. So I am not going to continue arguing with you. You obviously choose man over God's "infallible" Word... So let the blind lead the blind, I suppose. The whole "I used to be this or that" thing really has no bearing on anyone. Just because you used to believe in Santa Claus doesn't make me think you are foolish, it just means you were mislead.

I'm not racist (racist against my own colour? lol) , just stating a fact that the majority of people who believe in a pre-trib rapture haven't encountered real persecution in their life. I don't think anyone who has gone through real persecution, at the end of it, would still have their rose colored glasses on that God would or should or must rapture them before encountering tribulation. Corrie Ten Boom and the Chinese believers didn't. You can raise all the "my loving daddy god loves me and wouldnt let me go through that" all you like but the reality is that God has never raptured anybody from tribulation, but rather given them the means and ways to go through it. If you aren't interested in looking at history or anything other than your close minded subjective interpretation of scripture and shoving that down our throats, then I would rather debate with someone who is at least at searching for objective facts and truth. If you want to get your theology from websites like this one:
http://www.leftbehindgames.com/
That's your choice.
I'm sure a fictional character called "Charlie Church Mouse" is a true Christian and can offer us the truth about last days events lol.

 

[Thaddaeus]

I would think it is the job of the pretribbers to show irrefutable evidence from early church history, scripture, and perhaps other sources, that it is the correct view. Considering that a post trib view, or no trib view, is the "default" position.
Pre trib is the new doctrine buddy, so that means you have to try harder to prove it. Pre trib is certainly not a unamimous view amongst christianity worldwide - particularly those believers persecuted for their faith around the world today. Pre-trib is usually an american comfortable sunday church christian white man's belief. No one in other countries who are severely persecuted for their faith are duped into thinking that God is obliged to take them up to the sky, nor are they so fearful of martyrdom that they must believe in rapture. Now that's a true Christian.

I just did but let me show you again;


Da 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Da 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Here both some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt will awake, not go up to be with Him in the clouds but will awake, nothing also about the ones that are still alive just the ones that sleep in the dust of the earth

does this sound anything like This:

where those that are asleep in Christ not those that are unsaved that face an everlasting contempt. but those in Christ will be raise first and be caught up/ raptured to be with Him in the clouds and not only those that are asleep but those which are alive shall be caught up/ raptured with the ones that are asleep to be with Him forever
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


hey watchman God just showed me this please take note here if 1thes.4:13-18 is tellling about His 2nd coming and about the resurrection where that both the lost and saved will be judge then Your doctrine preaches that all will be In heaven and none cast out for 1 thes . clearly says that all taken at this event will be with the Lord forever. have you ever noticed that, look Dude


and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Praise the Lord . looks like you may have to change your doctrine on the rapture or either your doctrine on salvation, do you realy want to preach that all lost and saved will be with the Lord forever up in the heavens

 

[Definition_Christ]

I mean the whole similarities thing... Really amuses me.. Satan and God have similarities.. Sure..

-They are both Spirit.. (IT'S IN THE BIBLE)

-They both want people to worship them. (IT'S IN THE BIBLE)

-They both can manifest to the physical. (IT'S IN THE BIBLE)


Thankfully we don't all use flawed logic and philosophies that are made up of false doctrines. If I used the type of logic post-tribbers use with Matthew 24 and 1 Thes 4.. Well you would conclude something that is something like blasphemy. Thank God the bible also points out DIFFERENCES....

Satan is evil... God is good... God can not tell a lie, satan is the father of lies... God is love.. Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy.

Now see.. When we have DIFFERENCES.. We can tell they are DIFFERENT... Not just using SIMILARITIES....
See... "HIS ANGELS GATHERING" and "HE HIMSELF GATHERING".. Are what you call DIFFERENCES...

See if we use SOUND LOGIC we can conclude they are DIFFERENT events.. You don't need doctrines from 2,000 B.C. or even to be told this. If you can point out a difference that usually means.. They are DIFFERENT.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Your basically saying that Paul gave more revelation than Christ!
I ask you again, and no pre-tribber has given me a straight answer yet, where does Christ teach a pre-trib rapture?


This online book is a very good study,

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm

I'd hate you to be ignorant of the origins of the belief you which you profess.

Or.... Christ GAVE revelation to Paul? What do you not understand about..

John 16
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

I mean once again, you don't need ancient churches or doctrines from 37 A.D. to comprehend this.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Da 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Da 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So the post tribber would say that tribulation concludes in verse 1, and then we have the second coming and resurrections in verse 2.

The pre tribber might say that verse 2 happens before the tribulation.

I'm sorry but this is the pre trib view (I just swap verse 2 and 1 around to fit your views):


and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Da 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

 

[Definition_Christ]

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Yeah, so not only are there differences between Matt 24 and 1 Thess. 4.. There are actually proofs for the rapture.. What is the post-tribber /1837 B.C. / doctrine of men / commentary say about that verse Snail?

Let me guess, it's symbolic right?