Rapture= false teaching

watchmen · May 11, 2009

Jesus does indeed tell us to watch, but what are we to be watching for? The sudden out of the blue return of Christ with no signs preceding it? NO. Or are we to watch for the sign that Jesus told us would precede His coming so we know His return is near? YES this is your answer.

I pray that you will open your eyes and see.

shinethelightforever · May 11, 2009

You can pray all you want for which I don't care. I've been studying pre trib for almost six years and I am still learning. Yes we are to look for the signs,but his return would be near. But you must undestand that the rapture and the second coming are two seperate events. Heres why:

Rapture: 1 Thess 4: 16-17For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Jesus talks about this in John 14 when he talks about going back to his father house to prepare a place for us; John 14: 1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In Matt 24: 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

You don't see any references to being caught up in the air to meet the Lord in the air but being gathered by being sent by the angels from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Whats going to happen is that Jesus will gather everyone in Matt 25: 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

watchmen · May 11, 2009

shinethelightforever said:

Apparently you have decided to not learn, but to stop your ears and refuse to hear the truth on this subject.

Not according to scripture

Yes and verse 15 of 1st Thess tells us that this happen at the coming of Christ which is after the tribulation

Verse 3 of John 14 does not say take you back it simply says so that you may be were I am.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And were will Christ be? On earth for the Millennium.

Actually in the sister chapter to Matthew 24, Mark 13 it tells us the elect is gathered from heaven and earth. The dead from Heaven and the living from earth.
Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

miktre · May 11, 2009

imoss said:

miktre said:

Matt 24:17-19 (Jesus speaking)

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (KJV)

Explanation of above verse 19: This is a verse in which the translation is somewhat confusing; Jesus is speaking here symbolically not literally. We will not bother to tell you how the various commentators interpret this verse, but rather, we will explain it.
This is not speaking of a pregnant woman, you will notice that no gender is implied, and it is speaking in a plural sense. This is referring to those who have been spiritually impregnated in their mind with the mark of the beast, those who have been spiritually impregnated and are therefore "spiritually with child" when the True Bridegroom Christ returns. That is to say, those who are worshiping antichrist when the true Christ returns.
And them that "give suck" are not nursing mothers, but rather those that are nursing the great apostasy, by doing the work of satan, in that they teach that antichrist is the True Christ - thus helping satan to deceive the world, albeit, that most will be doing it in ignorance. You could liken it to your going on a long journey and when you return to your wife she is nursing a baby that she had by another. (it will be an approximately 2000 year journey for Christ, and when He returns, His Bride (the Church) will be with another savior - the false savior, the antichrist).
When Jesus begins the verse with "And woe unto them...", it is a warning of the highest magnitude! It is the singling out of some for a terrible punishment, it is at the same time a condemnation. On the other hand, the love between a mother and her suckling baby is the purest form of love known on this earth. Don't let anyone tell you that Jesus has a special punishment in store for them! Quote

Well my dear... you pretty much lost me as soon as I read this. Please dont add to the words of the Bible... this is in err... It is what it is... as written... woe to pregnant & nursing mothers. For it to be anything else God would have had it written as such. I have no clue where you would have got this far out idea... It is what it is. Unfortunately I was unable to read the rest of your post (which may have been very good)after seeing this gross err in translation. I did however love your choice of font color. Review where you obtained this misinformation about this and truly reflect on Gods word as written. God Bless you as you seek.

I stand by it 100% Discerning symbology referring spiritual from the physical is no easy task, its not for all to understand. Are we to believe that we are acually children physically not spiritually when we are reffered to as the children of God? Is Christ the Lion and the Lamb physically or Tree of life, does He ever take these forms? I think not. He refers to men as his bride, but are we physically female? Is Israel an accual fig tree? No. If you choose to not read on sobeit, but I kindly ask that you do.

Peace unto you in Christ Jesus

miktre · May 11, 2009

miktre said:

imoss said:

also

1Thes 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (KJV)

miktre · May 12, 2009

watchmen said:

Acually this is what I posted:
Then they make a nonsensical statement, they say that they will be Raptured up into the clouds at the end of the Tribulation and then turn right around and come back with Jesus at His Second Advent - this makes no sense at all!

Neither verses you listed Luke 17:26-30 nor 2nd Thess 1:7-9 supports post trib rapture.

This version errs in that they feel that only a portion of the people on the planet (the 'Church') will be removed before the wrath of God, which in fact commences the "Day of the Lord." But there is no selective removal before God's wrath is executed on the ungodly. The 'Church' witnesses the destruction of the ungodly but is itself protected from it. Observe this Scripture showing that some are destroyed while others yet REMAIN and witness that destruction of the ungodly: "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." {Rev 11:13}.

shinethelightforever · May 12, 2009

watchmen said:

I know the truth already. Pre Trib is the truth from what I have studied and learned. What do you like me to do? Work to learn better according you?

watchmen · May 12, 2009

shinethelightforever said:

According to scripture pre trib is not truth. What you should do is want to know God's truth, rather than what would be the best for you.

P.S. Easy on the language, this is a Christian site remember?

shinethelightforever · May 12, 2009

watchmen said:

Yes I know this a christian site, but right now you are offending me and my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Also I am.

I know Gods truth and the pre trib is the truth

See here we can agree and disagree on doctrines right? But these arguments leads to no where but an endless debate.

BLC · May 12, 2009

shinethelightforever said:

Take some time and thank God that He has taught you the truth and be free in that. No one can take the liberty that God has given you. Your messuge is uplifting and theirs is condemning. Those that oppose and try to provoke you should be ignored because God has called you to peace. Rejoice in the LORD always and give Him thanks for that is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you, who has the truth.

watchmen · May 12, 2009

miktre said:

Acually this is what I posted:
Then they make a nonsensical statement, they say that they will be Raptured up into the clouds at the end of the Tribulation and then turn right around and come back with Jesus at His Second Advent - this makes no sense at all!

Neither verses you listed Luke 17:26-30 nor 2nd Thess 1:7-9 supports post trib rapture.

This version errs in that they feel that only a portion of the people on the planet (the 'Church') will be removed before the wrath of God, which in fact commences the "Day of the Lord." But there is no selective removal before God's wrath is executed on the ungodly. The 'Church' witnesses the destruction of the ungodly but is itself protected from it. Observe this Scripture showing that some are destroyed while others yet REMAIN and witness that destruction of the ungodly:

Then explain what 1st Thess 4:13-18 is referring to, and give your opinion of what happens after we are caught up, or gathered together?

watchmen · May 12, 2009

BLC said:

Read Ezekiel 13:1-11 and you will see what happens to false prophets that teach false security, instead of preparing the people.

Petertherock · May 12, 2009

Again I say, Be Watchful, Be Prepared, Be in Gods will at all times. Pray unceasing, Pray moreso in the spirit.

I care not if I am taken to be with the lord tomorrow, through death or through the Change or Pre-trib or Mid-trib or Post-trib; as long as I and my family , and all of mankind as get to be with Jesus.

Peace be unto you and yours evermore

Peter the Rock

imoss · May 12, 2009

Petertherock said:

exactly my thoughts on this... the timing is irrelevent, my strength is in the Lord! to survive my own tribulations or the end times tribulation I can do all things through Christ Jesus, he will strengthen me... we all have trials, tribulations while on this earth that arent the prophesized world tribulation. These in themselves can seem individually as horrific as enduring the end times prophecy. (ever seen someone waste away from cancer, suffer the flesh eating disease, acquiredhemophilia, the slow painful breakdown of the body from MS? I've seen all of this firsthand...) Yes, pray unceasing! Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord!

eric51 · May 12, 2009

I seriously suggest that all Christians not pay heed to rapture and focus their energies on living today as Christ taught us to. Christian obedience and love is the best preparation for all tomorrows.

BLC · May 12, 2009

imoss said:

Is it important to make appointments and set time aside to spend with your family? God has given us (24) hours in a day and (365) days in a year to be stewards of. He has told us to redeem the time for the days are evil (Eph 5:16).When you make appointments with people do you keep those appointments? Do they expect you to keep those appointments with them? Is God somehow different with His appointments and appointed times?

By saying that timing is not important, you are saying that God does not keep His appointments nor the word of His promise. Did He not say it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment (Heb 7:29). And what about (Acts 17:26) and (Eph 1:10)? Was creation just a happenstance or did God select a specific time for it? Did not God tell Abraham that he would come at the appointed time and Sarah would have a son (Gen 18:14)? Does not God require us to do everything decently and in order (1Cor 14:40)?

Think of this. Even though we do not know the day or the hour of Christ's return, Paul said a very interesting thing to the believers in Thessalonica in (1Thes 5:1-9);

'But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ'...

miktre · May 13, 2009

1st Thessalonians 4:17:

OK, heres the 'granddaddy' of them all, the Rapturist's 'big-gun' so to speak. And I must honestly admit that at face value, taking this verse alone and removing it from the context of the forth chapter of 1st Thessalonians, it would appear as though this is the 'smoking gun' of the Rapture theory. But then that is the inherent problem with all of those who throw 'one-liners' and 'random verses' at people from the pulpit; They can mould a nice neat little package of out-of-context and unrelated Scriptures into anything they wish to. Below is the Rapturist's Crowning Glory, their 'Hope Diamond,' and their 'Holy Grail':

1Thes 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)

Sounds good, doesn't it? I will even admit that the above verse, sitting here on the page all naked and alone sure sounds like a Rapture to me. But I don't have the luxury of looking through the wrong end of a telescope. I, as all serious Bible students are exhorted to do as the Berean's did: "...and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." {Acts 17:11}, and, "...comparing spiritual things with spiritual." {1 Cor 2:13}.
Below, we shall do what the Rapture teachers cannot possibly be doing, we will look at this verse in the context that the Holy Spirit put it in. We will back-up and pick it up a couple of verses before this one and to set the subject and the object of the verse clearly in our minds, so as to be assured that we are interpreting it in the proper context.

1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren,concerning them which are asleep#2, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope#3.

Explanation of above: #1 I would not have you to be ignorant: = Apostle Paul is telling us that he wishes to inform us of something so that we are not without understanding in the matter. #2 concerning them which are asleep: = Paul is now telling us what it is that he wishes to understand; He wants us to know what happens to those who 'sleep' (die). #3 that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope: = Paul is saying that the reason that he wants to inform us of what happens when people die is so that we do not feel sad like those who have no hope of a resurrection into everlasting life (the heathen, who believe not upon Christ, having no hope of a resurrection into eternal life). Paul does not want us Christians to be like the heathen unbelievers. The subject of these verses is: "Where are the dead?" Nothing more, nothing less.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again#1, even so them also which sleep in Jesus#2 will God bring with him#3.

Explanation of above: #1 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again: = Paul is saying that we Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that is what makes us Christians. #2even so them also which sleep in Jesus: = In like manner as Jesus died and resurrected, so also will those who died in Christ (as Christians) resurrect from the dead into an eternal life. #3 God bring with him: = God will bring these resurrected Christians with Him. God can 'bring them with Him' because they are already with Him. You cannot 'bring' someone with you unless they are with you prior to the 'bringing.' At the moment of death, our spiritual body and soul return to God and our flesh body decomposes back to the dust whence it came (i.e., carbon, minerals...).
There is a greater truth in this verse that has been twisted by many Rapture teachers. They tell us that this is saying "the dead will be Raptured (along with the living 'saints' during the Rapture)." This is incorrect on many fronts. For one, it says "which sleep in Jesus" and then that "God bring with him". Jesus and God are two different words. One is the Son of God and one is Almighty God in Heaven though they are one. Observe below:

Jesus: Greek word #2424 Iesous (ee-ay-sooce'); of Hebrew origin [3091]; Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites. [this is Jesus Christ the Son of God].
God: Greek word #2316 theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the definite article [which IS present in the Greek manuscripts here!] the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very. [This is Almighty God the Father].

Now according to their Rapture theory, it is Jesus the Son of God who comes to Rapture people away, therefore the phrase from the above Scripture "God bring with him" can make no sense regarding their Rapture theory.
However, we know from the Bible that Jesus Christ shall come to earth at His Second Advent. What the phrase "God bring with him" really means is that God shall resurrect the dead into eternal life THROUGH the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Once again, this is simply stating that just as Christ resurrected from the dead into eternal life, we also can be resurrected into the life eternal through Christ Jesus.
Dr. E.W. Bullinger, in the The Companion Bible describes this phase as: "God will through Jesus bring with Him." pg.1792. We would ask you: bring where? We know that Almighty God Himself is not physically present with His creation until the "New Heaven and new earth' {Rev 21:1}, so He (God) isn't bringing anyone anywhere until after Judgment day {Rev 20:11-15}. We observe that the verse started out with "Jesus died and rose again", so therefore, what it is saying is that God will bring them (those who sleep/died in good standing through/with Jesus) into the resurrection through Jesus Christ. I hope that is clear. Please understand that It is far more difficult to 'prove' a negative (prove that something isn't) than it is to 'prove' a positive (prove that something is), so we may appear redundant at times. But since we are debunking the Rapture theory we are constantly engaged in proving that what they say is not true nor is it possible.
Many Rapturist's concept that our souls are in the grave with our decomposing bodies is horrible, pagan even. But we remember that Paul started this Scripture by saying that he didn't want us to think like the heathen who have no hope of life after death: "that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." For they say that when Jesus comes to Rapture the living 'saints' (them) that He also will Rapture the dead 'saints' from the cemeteries of the world. But we know through Scripture that this is impossible because our souls go back immediately to God at the very moment of our death, and only our discarded flesh tabernacles (bodies) rot back to dust in the grave from whence they came. Therefore there is nothing to resurrect from a tomb. You remember what the Angels said to the women when they went to visit the tomb of Jesus after He was buried: "And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?" {Luke 24:5}. Now Jesus' resurrection was a little different than ours is, for Jesus resurrected body and spirit, we discard our bodies and resurrect in spirit:

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high*, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home*, and the mourners go about the streets*:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed*, or the golden bowl be broken*, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain*, or the wheel broken at the cistern*.

*These are Hebrew euphemisms for death.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (KJV)

There are no souls in the cemetery, only decomposing spiritless flesh corpses. This should be a comfort to those of us that have lost loved ones. They are with the Heavenly Father that created their very souls!
I feel the need to really nail this point home. In the below Scripture, Jesus brings a dead girl back to life. See if you can pick-up where her soul/spirit went, for it had to go somewhere for it to "come again"

Luke 8:53-55 (Jesus raises a dead girl)
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. (KJV)

Answer: When she died, It (her soul/spirit) went immediately back to God who gave it, Jesus called her back to life and God sent her soul/spirit back, thus she resurrected into her mortal body (she would still go on to die someday). When Jesus resurrected her, He resurrected her into an (her) mortal body.
We, when we die, also will be resurrected, but into immortality, into an (our) immortal body (in Heaven) if we overcome, by and through Christ Jesus. Jesus was teaching here, what Jesus did for this young girl was a 'type' of what He shall do for all true overcoming believers, but that resurrection will be a resurrection into immortal 'bodies' (not susceptible to death). Anyway, no Rapture yet, right!

miktre · May 13, 2009

1Thes 4:13-18 (Cont.)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord#1 shall not prevent them which are asleep#2.

Explanation of above: #1 we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord: = Paul is saying that in the end of times, at the Second Advent, there will be people on the earth who are still alive, they have not yet died, which makes sense. #2 not prevent them which are asleep: = Those that are alive at Christ's return shall not prevent (precede) those who have died in the past in being with the Lord . The reason for that is that the dead are already with the Lord since the very moment of their flesh death. Therefore, those who are 'changed' {1st Cor 15:52} into their spiritual body at the coming of Christ cannot have been with Him before those who are already with Him from the time of their death. But anyway, in the above verse Paul is telling us that to be absent from the flesh, is to be present with the Lord:

2 Cor 5:6-9
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (KJV)

See also the parable of Lazarus and Rich man to learn where we go when we die {Luke 16:19-31}.
16 For#1 the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God#2: and#3 the dead in Christ shall rise#4 first#5:

Explanation of above: #1 For: = Because. #2the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...: = This is the Second Advent. The "the trump of God" is the seventh trump in which Christ returns {Rev11:15} (1st Cor 15:52 is even more specific in that it states "at the last trump" which is the seventh of seven). #3 and: = The word is "and," not "first" or "then," or "next." This is simply showing a change in the flesh body transforming into a spirit body, but it is not an immediate preceding of the event of the next verse. #5 first: = Shall have risen first, it already happened at the instant of their death, that is why none who are alive and remain could prevent them (precede them). A definition: first: Greek word #4412 proton (pro'-ton); neuter of 4413 as adverb (with or without 3588); firstly (in time, place, order, or importance): KJV-- before, at the beginning, chiefly (at, at the) first (of all).#4 rise: = Ok, now here we have that 'giddy factor' with the Rapturists. Anything they see written about "rise," "clouds," "lift...," makes them think "Rapture." But this use of the word "rise' here is not "levitate." Let's look at the definition of the word and then we will look at a couple verses where the word is used in other Scriptures. Then you judge if this is talking about "rising in a Rapture up into the clouds." A definition: rise: Greek word #450 anistemi (an-is'-tay-mee); from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive): KJV-- arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
And below are some other Scriptures where the Greek word [anistemi] (translated "rise" in our above Scripture) is used. Bear in mind that it often took more than one English word to translate a Greek word in the Bible:

Mark 9:31
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise [anistemi] the third day. (KJV)

Luke 8:55
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose [anistemi] straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. (KJV) [You will remember that we just studied this verse a few paragraphs back]

Acts 14:10
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand [anistemi] upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. (KJV)

Ok, no Rapture here right! Below is the last verse in our Scripture, and it their main Rapture verse in the whole Bible. But as we shall see it is simply finishing the chronology and the teaching of the preceding verses about all people, living and dead at the time of Christ's Second Advent, going into a spiritual body. The dead did it at the moment of their individual deaths and those who remain alive at the time of the Second Advent will do it at that moment.
So you see that the old saying: "the only things you have to do is die and pay taxes," is incorrect, for when Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all who are alive will be 'translated' (changed/transfigured) into their spiritual bodies without actually experiencing a flesh death. This was witnessed at the 'Mount of the transfiguration" by John, Peter, and James when Jesus was transfigured into a spiritual body and was met by Moses and Elijah in their spiritual bodies {Mt 17:1-9}. In Heaven we are in spiritual bodies, not sickly corruptible flesh ones.

17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.
Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a).used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky

Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.
Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek'). This word 'clouds', as it is used here by Paul is a figure of speech, meaning a large group, used also by Paul in {Heb12:1},supplied below for your comparison:

Heb 12:1(Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)

Like I said, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."
Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)

Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: = I don't even have to tell you how the Rapturist interprets this word. But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)

This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).

Observe below:

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)

After Paul wrote this (the first book of Thessalonians) he began receiving reports from Thessalonica that this Scripture was being misinterpreted. Paul hastily, in a scant couple months, wrote the second letter (book) to the Thessalonians, we know this as {2nd Thessalonians}. In the second chapter of that second letter, Paul cleared up all traces of confusion regarding the Scripture we just studied (regarding the Rapture misinterpretation). We shall briefly study that second explanatory letter (2nd Thessalonians). But first, why don't we re-read those five verses that caused all the confusion in Thessalonica then, and in the Rapture churches today, bearing in mind what we just covered. Then we shall let Paul clear away all remaining confusion in the matter.

1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds(multitude), to meet the Lord in the air(your spiritual body): and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)

miktre · May 13, 2009

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-5:

We shall be brief in this Scripture, I promise. Like I said earlier, it is easier to prove a positive than a negative. We will just document that Paul did in fact have to correct the Thessalonians (and our modern day Rapturists) as to the true meaning of the Scripture in {1st Thessalonians 4:13-17}.

II Th 2:1-5
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Explanation of above: Paul is telling them (and us) that he wishes to speak about the Second Advent and our return to the Lord at that time.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us#1, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Explanation of above: Paul is saying that they shouldn't be confused by any means, into thinking the the Second Advent was near. #1 nor by letter as from us = That letter was 1st Thessalonians. Paul realized that they were confused in the prior letter (the first) to the Thessalonians (that which we just covered).

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (KJV)

Explanation of above: Paul is saying that the Second Advent shall not come until those things happen. There is no Rapture written by Paul, back in his day the people of Thessalonica mistook that Paul was saying that the time was at hand for the Second Advent, but it was not. The Rapturist today is confused that the Scripture was about some kind of Rapture, but it is not. It was simply about what happens to the dead, and how that through Christ they can have eternal life. Those things above that Paul said would precede the day of the Lord (Second Advent) have not yet happened even in our times, but they are prophesied to happen in our generation. From the last above statement by Paul, i.e., "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" it is clear that he had spoken to them about this but did not write it in the first letter to the Thessalonians, he includes it here in the 2nd.
In the above Scriptures, satan is "that man of sin" and"the son of perdition". Some will try to tell you that Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ, is the son of perdition. This is untrue and to document: In verse {4} above we see: "the son of perdition" who: "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Judas Iscariot never did that, Judas never said that he was God.

In fact after Judas realized that they were really going to crucify Jesus, and that Jesus was going to let it happen, not even opening His mouth in defense; Judas threw the money that he was paid to betray Jesus down onto the temple floor. This was an act of repentance. The 'son of perdition' means: The one who perishes. I know it's easy to jump on the bandwagon with all the self righteous Hypocrites that say Judas is going to hell for betraying Jesus. But through Christ, isn't salvation open to all upon repentance? Jesus said it was, even to those who died before Christ had paid the price on the cross, for after Christ was crucified and before He appeared back on earth resurrected, Jesus went to the lost souls in prison (hell) and offered them forgiveness and salvation. {1st Pet 3:18+19}, {Eph 4:8-10}, and {Rev 20:7} (for documentation on what 'prison' means).
There is only one soul that is condemned (by name) to eternal perishment, and that is satan, the 'son of perdition' by one name, and the 'antichrist' by another. Satan has many names and roles & duties, but he's the same one entity. Below we see God condemning satan to be consumed from within by fire, perish in the Lake of Fire (hence, 'the son of perdition'). At this time satan is the only one by name who has been judged to death in the lake of fire, there are also the fallen angels, and many more people who will follow him after the Great Judgment Day.

Ezek 28:13-19 (God condemning satan)13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (KJV)

watchmen · May 13, 2009

Miketr, why do you not just post the site you are copying your info from, and if we want to read it we will go there instead of clogging the thread with this nonsense

Thank you

Rapture= false teaching

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