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M
well. I don't want to stick my foot in too much, but it might be good to remember that maybe it shouldn't really matter if we know WHAT exactly will happen and WHEN, none of us can predict christ's return anyway, can we? christ said he didn't even know when, if I recall correctly. and actually seeing what'll happen will beat the pants off of a few paragraphs theorizing what possibly could happen. it might be better to just drop the subject and devote all this time and knowledge to witnessing to people. on both sides. I mean there was that thing paul said about 'so long as you agree on these things', right? I mean, we all agree jesus is the son of god, we all agree he died and he was raised again, we all agree he WILL come again, so why does it matter if we know the time and the place? it's like aren't you just fighting for Special Knowledge or something? I mean, shouldn't we all be united, instead of fighting about things which don't concern us? Dudes, what are you DOING?
actually, no they didn't.
Hippolytus taught futurism... not historicism.
Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28
"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image
are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth
beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little
more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal
survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the
Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented
the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard,
meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the
legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans,
who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part
clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that
are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the
Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings
judgment upon the world was Christ."
rergardless of them being futurist or historicist or postmillennialist, they still taught the most important lesson that post-tribulation teaches today: endurance and perseverance through tribulation... not some escapist fantasy before facing tribulation, as pre-tribulation and dispensationalism teaches. The doctrine of these teachers have more credibility than your doctrine, because what they taught has been carried out and taught all throughout history...
it's seen within the early teachings of Catholicism
within the teachings of orthodoxy
within the teachings of the Protestant Reformers... that was when you got your Historcist viewpoint. it was the Protestant Reformers that believed the pope was Antichrist, and the Roman Catholic Church was the was the whore of Babylon.
your pre-trib doctrine has utterly no foundation whatsoever in the entire history of the church prior to 1827, when Edward Irving began to teach it in his Catholic-Apostolic church in Scotland.
YES, they believed in a taking up of the church... SO DO I.
however, they also believed they would suffer at the hands of Antichrist before the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ...
they also believed in the Six Day Theory, which says that a thousand years on earth is like a day to God in Heaven... it teaches that we would be on earth for 6,000 years before Jesus Christ would return. Commodianus, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Methodius, Lactantius, and Theophilus taught this... they knew they would be on this earth for the reign of Antichrist, and as such, they continued to teach perseverance and endurance.
they never taught an imminent return, as pre-trib does today... they taught expectancy.
your man-made doctrine holds no ground whatsoever against the teachings of Christ.
Hippolytus taught futurism... not historicism.
Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28
"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image
are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth
beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little
more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal
survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the
Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented
the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard,
meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the
legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans,
who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part
clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that
are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the
Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings
judgment upon the world was Christ."
rergardless of them being futurist or historicist or postmillennialist, they still taught the most important lesson that post-tribulation teaches today: endurance and perseverance through tribulation... not some escapist fantasy before facing tribulation, as pre-tribulation and dispensationalism teaches. The doctrine of these teachers have more credibility than your doctrine, because what they taught has been carried out and taught all throughout history...
it's seen within the early teachings of Catholicism
within the teachings of orthodoxy
within the teachings of the Protestant Reformers... that was when you got your Historcist viewpoint. it was the Protestant Reformers that believed the pope was Antichrist, and the Roman Catholic Church was the was the whore of Babylon.
your pre-trib doctrine has utterly no foundation whatsoever in the entire history of the church prior to 1827, when Edward Irving began to teach it in his Catholic-Apostolic church in Scotland.
YES, they believed in a taking up of the church... SO DO I.
however, they also believed they would suffer at the hands of Antichrist before the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ...
they also believed in the Six Day Theory, which says that a thousand years on earth is like a day to God in Heaven... it teaches that we would be on earth for 6,000 years before Jesus Christ would return. Commodianus, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Methodius, Lactantius, and Theophilus taught this... they knew they would be on this earth for the reign of Antichrist, and as such, they continued to teach perseverance and endurance.
they never taught an imminent return, as pre-trib does today... they taught expectancy.
your man-made doctrine holds no ground whatsoever against the teachings of Christ.
Christ never gave the specific time... but He most certainly did give us the general time... that is why He told us to endure to the end (Matthew 24:13) He told us generally when He would come so that we would know that there is an end to all of this suffering, and pain, and trial... and it's not in some secret pre-trib snatching... it's AFTER the great tribulation.
you know, Prower, before 1827, there was no debate over some secret snatching of the church... no oen argued that Christ would come after the great tribulation... the teaching was unanimous that Christ would come after the great tribulation.
However all that changed with Edward Irving. It was invented by him, spoken by a spirit through Margaret MacDonald, pushed by John Nelson Darby, taught exclusively by the fake Bible scholar Cyrus Scofield in his scofield "reference" Bible, and made even more popular by Hal Lindsay, Thomas Ice, Perry Stone, John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, and many other pastors and teachers, and writers...
when you look at it's history, it crept in through a false spirit, and divided the church even more than it already is.
you know, Prower, before 1827, there was no debate over some secret snatching of the church... no oen argued that Christ would come after the great tribulation... the teaching was unanimous that Christ would come after the great tribulation.
However all that changed with Edward Irving. It was invented by him, spoken by a spirit through Margaret MacDonald, pushed by John Nelson Darby, taught exclusively by the fake Bible scholar Cyrus Scofield in his scofield "reference" Bible, and made even more popular by Hal Lindsay, Thomas Ice, Perry Stone, John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, and many other pastors and teachers, and writers...
when you look at it's history, it crept in through a false spirit, and divided the church even more than it already is.
M
Trumpets in heaven??? You must be joking, right? What in the heck are the trumpets for??? Trumps in heaven??? heresy. They are for us to heed the call! What an outright disregard for the scripture, you corrupt even the simplest of teachings. How can you so willingly teach this is beyond me. The trumpets are for our benefit and you want to rob ordinary Christians of that. Tisk, tisk. Bible says plain as day it's the LAST TRUMP and to let us know and you even want to twist that.Anybody with any sense knows the last trump is the seventh. So simple.
NOT at all
The CATCHING AWAY is for the BRIDE (WE WILL BE AT THE MARRIAGE SUPPER WHILE THE WRATH OF GOD WILL BE ON EARTH)
JESUS WILL BE IN THE CLOUDS FOR THIS TO MEET HIS BRIDE THEN TAKE US TO HIS FATHERS HOUSE AS SCRIPTURE REVEALS
The TAKING UP's is for the
2 WITNESSES
the 144,000
BEHEADED of TRIBULATION (THESE WILL BE TRANSFORMED IMMEDIATELY JUST AS SCRIPTURE CONVEYS TO BE PART OF THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON)
JESUS WILL BE DESCENDING DOWN TO EARTH WITH HIS BRIDE FOR BATTLE AND THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED WILL JOIN THE BRIDE AND GROOM FOR BATTLE
RAPTURE (CLOUDS) = UP = ASCENSION = 1ST TRUMP
2ND COMING IN POWER = DOWN = DESCENSION = 7TH TRUMP
THEY ARE ALL CLEARLY STATED AND MADE KNOWN
IN FACT
AS YOU PUT IT
ONLY THE INSANE
CAN'T SEE THAT GOD WON'T ALLOW HIS BRIDE TO SUFFER WITH THE SINNERS
FOR
THERE WOULD BE NO GLORY OF GOD FOR THAT
IT IS
JUST
AN LUNATIC INSANELY IDEA
TO THINK THE BRIDE THE REMAINING CHOSEN
WILL SUFFER GODS WRATH SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE SINNERS THAT DESERVE IT
THERE IS NO GLORY FOR GOD IN THAT
OR
JUSTIFICATION
UMMMMM
IF YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS
AND DIE TONIGHT
YOU ARE STILL CONSIDERED A BELIEVER
AND A BELIEVER IS CLASSIFIED AS " THE BRIDE "
WHICH IN THIS CASE IS THE DESERVED ONES
TO BE RAPTURED
AND THEN ANOTHER CLASSIFICATION
INCLUDES THOSE STILL LIVING AND BREATHING AT THIS TIME
THAT TRULLY ARE BELIEVERS OF GOD
THE BRIDE IS SEPARATED FROM THOSE WHO DIE IN TRIBULATION
BECAUSE THEY CHOSE NOT TO BELIEVE AND OBEY GOD
SO THEY WILL SUFFER
BUT DURING THAT SUFFERING IF THEY CHOOSE JESUS AND TRULLY BELIEVE
THEY WILL BE BEHEADED AS A MARTYR
AND THEN WILL BECOME A PART OF GODS KINGDOM
C
Your posting says nothing to the point. They believed that they were suffering at the hand of the AntiChrist. Your belief system is no older than joint-heirs. The early church fathers believed that Jesus would return before they died, is that imminent enough. It is pointless to argue with a stone. I suppose you would say the same thing so lets go on to fruitful endevours.
yes it is older.
I've already given you hard proof that they were FUTURISTS... NOT historicists... it's not my fault you're too arrogant to read it for yourself, and it's nt my fault that you would rather listen to a lie than hear the truth.
the first century compared to the nineteenth century... you can do the math yourself... you can even do the research for yourself as well.
you just simply too proud to admit that what you and joint-heir preach and teach is new. You have given me your opinion. I have provided not only historical evidence, but scriptural evidence and Biblical fact to back it up... you havent. the Word of God will stand strong. The word of man will not.
you have no proof of the existence of a pre-trib rapture being taught in the time during the apostles or after the apostles.
Post-tribulation does have proof... and not only that, it's backed by scripture. Your doctrine isn't.
yes, let's go on to fruitful endeavors... like letting go of a lie, and accepting the truth that's right in your face.
I've already given you hard proof that they were FUTURISTS... NOT historicists... it's not my fault you're too arrogant to read it for yourself, and it's nt my fault that you would rather listen to a lie than hear the truth.
the first century compared to the nineteenth century... you can do the math yourself... you can even do the research for yourself as well.
you just simply too proud to admit that what you and joint-heir preach and teach is new. You have given me your opinion. I have provided not only historical evidence, but scriptural evidence and Biblical fact to back it up... you havent. the Word of God will stand strong. The word of man will not.
you have no proof of the existence of a pre-trib rapture being taught in the time during the apostles or after the apostles.
Post-tribulation does have proof... and not only that, it's backed by scripture. Your doctrine isn't.
yes, let's go on to fruitful endeavors... like letting go of a lie, and accepting the truth that's right in your face.
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yeah, except scripture was written for those who think god is done with Israel...
Jeremiah 31:35-37
35 Thus says the LORD,who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the LORD of hosts is his name:
36 "If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the LORD,
then shall the offspring of Israel cease
from being a nation before me forever."
37 Thus says the LORD:"If the heavens above can be measured,
and the foundations of the earth below can be explored,
then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel
for all that they have done,
declares the LORD."
Jeremiah 31:35-37
35 Thus says the LORD,who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the LORD of hosts is his name:
36 "If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the LORD,
then shall the offspring of Israel cease
from being a nation before me forever."
37 Thus says the LORD:"If the heavens above can be measured,
and the foundations of the earth below can be explored,
then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel
for all that they have done,
declares the LORD."