RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

[midwestbob]

Not at all not once did I mention 7 years. We would be hard pressed to say the tribulation is only 7 years.

as for the 7 years this comes fron the book of daniel there is a time declared for Israle of 70 weeks of years

Dan 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' [fn] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [fn] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [fn]
so the70 7s are 70 sets of 7 years

Dan 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [fn] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [fn] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

7 sets of 7 years and
62 sets of 7 years

=69 sets of 7 years so there is 1 set of seven years left over to make up the 70


so form the time the comand is given to rebuild the temple with streets and walls to the coming of the messia which is Jessus Christ will be 62 sets of 7 years

Da

n 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [fn] In the middle of the 'seven' [fn] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [fn]" [fn]


this final 7 years is the what many people call the great tribulation however the great tribulation is realy only the last 3.5 years after the ruler breaks the covanent with the Jews you will find many mentions of a 3.5 year periould measured in (weeks days years) in revalation i think this refers to the 2nd part of the 7 years

you also want to study the proficy of statue specificily the feet of iron and clay and the 2nd one with the beasts as it is the same proficy repeated in paralell with the beast in revalation

oh and as for the gap between the coming of Jesus christ and the last set of 7

it is interesting to note where Jesus stops when reading from the book of Isaiah in luke 4 16


Isaiah 61
1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

Jesus does not read And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn, he stops at a comma has been in place for 2000 years untill a world ruler makes a 7 year peace treaty with Israle

well that is atleast how i see it

also im pre trib but thats another post maybe


Nath

I’m very familiar with the pretrib teachings. I understand why many believe it is 7 years, and why many believe 3.5 years but disagree with the interpretations that lead one to believe that way. But the thread is about the timing of the rapture (pre or post trib) not the length of the trib. That’s another subject, better left for it’s own thread and even then it would be difficult if not impossible to put all the relevant material required to understand it in a single post in an understandable manner. Regardless of how long we think the trib is, the fact remains that understanding the last trump correctly eliminates the possibility of a pre trib rapture.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be change

Some of my other posts in this thread demonstrate the last trump is the seventh trump of Rev. Sadly many do not believe 1Cor15:52 as written. Those who believe in a pretrib rapture must add an exception or a qualifier to the verse in order to justify their belief that the last trump of 1Cor15:52 is not really the last (the 7th trump of Rev). The verse does not say the last trump for the church. … The verse does not say the last trump of the festival of… The verse does not say the last trump except for the trumps of …. Yet many insist that is what the verse means. God is not the author of Confusion. If the verse meant that, then that is what the verse would say. The verse is true as it is written or it is a lie. Sadly the pretrib folks don’t believe this verse as written is true and as a result continue to add a qualifier or an exception to the verse in order to justify their belief last isn’t really last.

Mar 7:13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Considering there are countless views of eschatology all built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles it would behoove all of us to diligently search for the truth on this subject Not doing so and blindly following the eschatology doctrines we have been taught could result in us doing exactly as Christ warned against in Mark7:13. A risk I am not willing to take.

As for me I'll willing take my place beside John our brother in tribulation. Who as his words show was already in tribulation at the time he wrote the following verse;
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Chris

 

[nath1234]

the rapture only affects those who are living christians on the earth
not the dead as far as i can tell this verse is not talking about the rapture it is talking about the resurection of the dead at the end of the tribulation
1Co 15:52

as for me would be quite happy to go through the tribulation because i know God Will look after me but from a biblical perspective i dont think i will

and as for the Jhon verse there is persicution or tribulation all over the earth right now

and did you even read my post . have you looked at any of my points??

 

[Avinu]

one important thing to note when figering out the rapture pre or post is to note

There is nothing to figure out, the Bible is quite clear. Hebrews 9:28 so Messiah was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a SECOND TIME, apart from sin, for salvation.

That and MY OP (have you read it all) shows Biblical clarity that the any rapture before Yeshua's second coming at the end of trib. is bogus and false, and anyone claiming it to be doctrine is a false teacher. Shalom

 

[nath1234]

please read my posts again

the rapture is for the church Jesus does not come down to the earth we simply dissapare from the earth

after that God will begin to deal with Israle again the second coming of christ is for Israle where Jesus will come down to the earth

everything you say about the 2nd coming is correct

you just dont seem to know what the rapture is they are not the same thing one is for the church one is for Israle

 

[midwestbob]

the rapture only affects those who are living christians on the earth
not the dead as far as i can tell this verse is not talking about the rapture it is talking about the resurection of the dead at the end of the tribulation 1Co 15:52

Really and your Scriptural proof is where? Would you care to qualify this statement with a hermeneutically sound study of the Scriptures?

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Same event, “we” the whole Church, is taken to be with the Lord at the last trumpet.

as for me would be quite happy to go through the tribulation because i know God
Will look after me but from a biblical perspective i dont think i will

That’s good because no one (including you and I) will be raptured prior to the time of great tribulation. We are taken just as Scripture states at the last trump(7th trump of Rev).

and as for the Jhon verse there is persicution or tribulation all over the earth right now

That’s because tribulation is promised for the saints, John 16:33 and 2 Timothy 3:12 being examples. For Christians, tribulation has continued unabated throughout the Christian Era. The word for tribulation, θλίψις, thlip’sis, appears 37 times in the Greek New Testament manuscripts. In every instance but one, thlip’sis is to and for God’s children.
“In the world ye shall have tribulation (thlip’sis)but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” 2 Timothy 3:12
If we Christians aren’t suffering persecution, it’s because we’ve done nothing to deserve it!

and did you even read my post . have you looked at any of my points??

Yes I read your post, and found your points lacking. As I said before most end time doctrines are built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles. Scripture tells us to build precept upon precept, line upon line, not assumption upon assumption. Assumptions are not proof.

If as you say the church is raptured before the time of great tribulation surely you could show us the Scripture that states this. Can you? Or will you just continue to provide opinion based on a doctrine that was built in the absence of sound hermeneutic principles?

 

[nath1234]

ok ok looks like i need to do some more research although i im very interested in your vievs concerning Israel and the church and tribulation maybe should start a new thread

it does however make sense to me that God would remove the church before he started working with Israel agan

as for the tribulation the 144000 and the two witnessses are all Jewish where is the church in revevation i cant find it ??

 

[Avinu]

ok ok looks like i need to do some more research although i im very interested in your vievs concerning Israel and the church and tribulation maybe should start a new thread

it does however make sense to me that God would remove the church before he started working with Israel agan

as for the tribulation the 144000 and the two witnessses are all Jewish where is the church in revevation i cant find it ??

Why would it make sense that YHVH would remove the church, He's never done that before and it is not His pattern. Matt. 24, says "as in the days of Noah were so shall the coming of the Son of man be." Well it was the evil of the world that were taken out, Noah and his family were kept safe in a boat on earth. Something to think about.

There's only 2 things that the Bible says about 144,000. That they come from the 12 tribes of Israel, there virgins and they stand on the mount of Olives with Yeshua singing a song that only they know. There is nothing else in the entire Bible that says they do anything else. Anyone who claims they do anything else is making an assumption and speculation which is dangerous.

Where does it say in the scripture that the two witnesses are jews, jews are not all Israel, they are of the tribe of Judah. The two witnesses can be any part of Israel or of the world. Scripture calls us the saints more than church in the Brit Hadeshah(NT) and saints is through out Revelation. Shalom

 

[midwestbob]

it does however make sense to me that God would remove the church before he started working with Israel agan

Why? Nothing in Scripture indicates that.

as for the tribulation the 144000 and the two witnessses are all Jewish

Who says the two witnesses are Jewish? Who do you think the two candles sticks and two olive trees are and why?

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a
thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
What does Scripture tell us candlesticks are?
Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So if seven candlesticks are seven churches wouldn’t two candlesticks be two churches?

What does Scripture tells us olive trees are? (Words in blue parenthesis added for clarity)
Romans 11:17 And if some of the (Jewish) branches be broken off, and thou (the Gentile church), being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.


Romans 11:24 For if thou (the Gentiles) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the Jews): how much more shall these (the Jews), which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

So the olive trees represent the Jews and Christians.
2 olive trees + 2 candlesticks = The Jewish and Christian churches.

where is the church in revevation i cant find it ??

Sound hermeneutic principles help one find the simple truths hidden in God’s word.
Sadly most base their understanding on the explanation’s others provide while completely ignoring the definition’s the unchanging God/Word gave us.

 

[nath1234]

Why would it make sense that YHVH would remove the church, He's never done that before and it is not His pattern. Matt. 24, says "as in the days of Noah were so shall the coming of the Son of man be." Well it was the evil of the world that were taken out, Noah and his family were kept safe in a boat on earth. Something to think about.

There's only 2 things that the Bible says about 144,000. That they come from the 12 tribes of Israel, there virgins and they stand on the mount of Olives with Yeshua singing a song that only they know. There is nothing else in the entire Bible that says they do anything else. Anyone who claims they do anything else is making an assumption and speculation which is dangerous.

Where does it say in the scripture that the two witnesses are jews, jews are not all Israel, they are of the tribe of Judah. The two witnesses can be any part of Israel or of the world. Scripture calls us the saints more than church in the Brit Hadeshah(NT) and saints is through out Revelation. Shalom

Sory i thourght the meaning of the word Jews had changed to mean all of Israel so is this not the case you will oboviously know a lot better than me

I agree with you on Noa that God took his people through the great tribulatiom (Israel)

Enoch is the picture of the rapture of the church

Nathan

 

[midwestbob]

Sory i thourght the meaning of the word Jews had changed to mean all of Israel so is this not the case you will oboviously know a lot better than me

Sory i thourght the meaning of the word Jews had changed to mean all of Israel so is this not the case you will oboviously know a lot better than me[/quote]

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that
circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Enoch is the picture of the rapture of the church

Where does Scripture state this?

 

[Shilo]

Zechariah 4:1-14

The Golden Lampstand and Olive Trees

1 Then the angel who was speaking with me returned and roused me, as a man who is awakened from his sleep. 2 He said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.” 4 Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, “What are these, my lord?” 5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts. 7 ‘What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’”

8 Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10 For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel—these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth.” 11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive ]branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

 

[midwestbob]

Zechariah 4:1-14

The Golden Lampstand and Olive Trees

1 Then the angel who was speaking with me returned and roused me, as a man who is awakened from his sleep. 2 He said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.” 4 Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, “What are these, my lord?” 5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts. 7 ‘What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’”

8 Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10 For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel—these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth.” 11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive ]branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Hermeneutics has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the rule of "scriptural adjacency." That rule states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears, then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it's a very good one. In other words ...


Why go to the Old Testament for definitions of New Testament terms when there are New Testament definitions that fit perfectly?

 

[gotime]

Hermeneutics has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the rule of "scriptural adjacency." That rule states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears, then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it's a very good one. In other words ...


Why go to the Old Testament for definitions of New Testament terms when there are New Testament definitions that fit perfectly?

Because the New Testament is based in the Old. Revelation is made up mostly of Old testament quotes. If you want to understand Revelation you must understand it form their perspective also. Jesus taught from the Old Testament, the apostles taught from the Old Testament.

Both the New and Old Testament are in agreement. In Fact if you have no grasping on the sanctuary and the teachings of the Old Testament then you will never get what Revelation is saying. The New testament is only one of the two witnesses of God.

 

[Avinu]

Sory i thourght the meaning of the word Jews had changed to mean all of Israel so is this not the case you will oboviously know a lot better than me

The reason why Israel is refered as jews so much is because after YHVH kicked the house of Ephraim(ten Northern tribes) out of Israel, The tribes of Judah and Benjamin are all that have been in Israel till now. So this is why Israel has been called the jews. No big deal for the most part. But in Israel if you were to call someone in Northern Israel a jew, they would take offense to that. Shalom

 

[midwestbob]

Because the New Testament is based in the Old. Revelation is made up mostly of Old testament quotes. If you want to understand Revelation you must understand it form their perspective also. Jesus taught from the Old Testament, the apostles taught from the Old Testament.

Both the New and Old Testament are in agreement. In Fact if you have no grasping on the sanctuary and the teachings of the Old Testament then you will never get what Revelation is saying. The New testament is only one of the two witnesses of God.

Considering that we are already discussing this in another thread and the subject of this thread is the rapture maybe it would be best if we just continue in the Who are the two witnesses in Revelation thread. see post 22 where I addressed your post in that thread.

 

[ezekiel33]

Hi, just wanted to give a brief testimony about what happened to me about 10 years ago. I was taught growing up about a pre trib rapture and believed it for many years. Of course I did, it sounded great... Even the word rapture carries a sense of elation, joy, bliss and ectasy( these are actual synonyms for rapture in the dictionary). It is rational for any Christian who has read about, or was taught about the tribulation period, with its trials and persecution to choose a pre trib rapture. Most people fear pain and death,its absolutely normal!!! So lets put it this way, in one hand I have bliss, ectasy and rapture and in the other pain, trials and persecution which would most people choose. Its a no brainer! The Pre trib rapture has been hand delivered on a silver platter. That is simply why its so popular. But, is it TRUE!!! Any how... one day I was studying about end time stuff(like usual) when the Lord spoke right to my heart. No booming voice, just a quiet still whisper to my spirit and said... I'm para phrasing..... Ezekiel33 I want you to put aside everything you have been taught, put away all your commentaries of what other people have said about what the Bible teaches and study for yourself!!! So I took a new journey through the Bible and looked up every passage about end time stuff, Day of the Lord tribulation and so on... old testament and new!!! When I was done I was shocked!!! I was like how can this be!!! I couldn't find anything about a pre trib rapture, as a matter of fact there was overwhelming evidence that Christians would be at least going through 1/2 the trib if not most of it. And Yes I( We) would see the anti-christ and abomination of desolation. One last note.... I was not converted to mid trib, pre-wrath or post trib by other preachers, teachers, books, internet searches ect.... It was just me the Holy spirit and my Bible.
Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

May God open eyes and hearts that they may see the truth. God bless>

 

[Avinu]

Hi, just wanted to give a brief testimony about what happened to me about 10 years ago. I was taught growing up about a pre trib rapture and believed it for many years. Of course I did, it sounded great... Even the word rapture carries a sense of elation, joy, bliss and ectasy( these are actual synonyms for rapture in the dictionary). It is rational for any Christian who has read about, or was taught about the tribulation period, with its trials and persecution to choose a pre trib rapture. Most people fear pain and death,its absolutely normal!!! So lets put it this way, in one hand I have bliss, ectasy and rapture and in the other pain, trials and persecution which would most people choose. Its a no brainer! The Pre trib rapture has been hand delivered on a silver platter. That is simply why its so popular. But, is it TRUE!!! Any how... one day I was studying about end time stuff(like usual) when the Lord spoke right to my heart. No booming voice, just a quiet still whisper to my spirit and said... I'm para phrasing..... Ezekiel33 I want you to put aside everything you have been taught, put away all your commentaries of what other people have said about what the Bible teaches and study for yourself!!! So I took a new journey through the Bible and looked up every passage about end time stuff, Day of the Lord tribulation and so on... old testament and new!!! When I was done I was shocked!!! I was like how can this be!!! I couldn't find anything about a pre trib rapture, as a matter of fact there was overwhelming evidence that Christians would be at least going through 1/2 the trib if not most of it. And Yes I( We) would see the anti-christ and abomination of desolation. One last note.... I was not converted to mid trib, pre-wrath or post trib by other preachers, teachers, books, internet searches ect.... It was just me the Holy spirit and my Bible.
Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

May God open eyes and hearts that they may see the truth. God bless>

My friend, not only is this awesome, and praise YHVH(GOD) for revealing His truth to you, but I had the Identical thing, practically verbatim. I had everybodies commentaries, books etc. and it was frustrating because they all had different answers. So YHVH in His mellow voice said, "Put down everybodies stuff and study my word alone." Then right after that my wife walks up to me and says read Galatians 1:11-12. I've never picked up another persons book again when it came to explaining YHVH's word. Like you said, it was just me and the Ruach Hakadesh(Holy Spirit). How awesome, YHVH bless you my friend.

 

[loveme1]

Pre tribulation rapture, actually is a big tool for the devil.... people's faith will be tested, if they expected to be raptured, but have to face Tribulation.

I think this indicates why so many have been taught about the Rapture.............


If there is only one book you read this year, make it the Bible for yourself, let the Holy spirit be your guide.

 

[Zilla64007]

tribulation has already been happening for the past 2000 years... us Americans are so cradled and spoiled, we've never actually seen what tribulation is.

I'm betting that once Antichrist does show up, the majority of people who claim to be Christians will undoubtedly follow after him.

 

[shroom2]

tribulation has already been happening for the past 2000 years...

THE tribulation has not started yet.

us Americans are so cradled and spoiled, we've never actually seen what tribulation is.

True, Americans have it pretty cushy compared to much of the world.

I'm betting that once Antichrist does show up, the majority of people who claim to be Christians will undoubtedly follow after him.

Christians won't be here......