Reformed vs Charismatic
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There are people who CLAIM to be healing people,
just to con them, and get their money.
These guys usually have lives full of depravity,
verifying they aren't Christians at all.
If you're one of THOSE guys... then you're a heretic.
If you're genuinely trusting in Christ as your savior,
and there is fruit in your life to back that up,
and you and I have different views on continuationism...
then you're just a brother with whom I have disagreements.
"Heresy" is a very REAL thing... it's in the bible.
But we do get emotional and toss that word around far too lightly.
just to con them, and get their money.
These guys usually have lives full of depravity,
verifying they aren't Christians at all.
If you're one of THOSE guys... then you're a heretic.
If you're genuinely trusting in Christ as your savior,
and there is fruit in your life to back that up,
and you and I have different views on continuationism...
then you're just a brother with whom I have disagreements.
"Heresy" is a very REAL thing... it's in the bible.
But we do get emotional and toss that word around far too lightly.
E
Amen.
Would you leave him in his despair, and destruction, Or give him the thing which can wash him and make him clean, and give him life.
the problem is, people think they are so far above this person, they would not even look at him without judgment, When in reality, we at one time were no better in Gods eyes, when God rescued us.
this holier than thou phariseism is just as rampant today as it was in Christ's day. And God is no more pleased with the do gooders today as he was back them.
You are expressing your ignorance of spiritual and emotional reality. Life is not made of belief, but actual life priorities. Sin always comes from inappropriate ordering of priorities and miss-understanding what is actually happening.
Jesus came to make us into mature people, who function properly, who show righteousness and truth, power to the powerless, victory over the issues that face all of us. Do you think the apostles went to their deaths defeated empty men, lost in confusion and sin?
Roger accused me of being a hypocrite, of being empty, and having no grasp of the gospel or my Lord. Do you realise how serious that is as a statement? Or do spiritual things mean so little to you also.
The Kingdom is real, and its authority and who the Living God, the Lord of Hosts is. I speak out of my experience, out of my life and understanding of His word. So ofcourse I respond to his suggestion, and I do not take lightly to his understanding. Did not the pharisees and saducess likewise critize Jesus for speaking simple emotional reality. He said come and follow me, not believe these doctrines, these principles, that theological concept. He spent time with the sinners because they needed help. He spent time with them because they also were honest about the emotional mess they were in.
Many many churches are filled with born and bred believers who live double lives, and do not know who they really are. Do you think this is the fruit to eternity Jesus died for? I do not think so.
Jesus came to make us into mature people, who function properly, who show righteousness and truth, power to the powerless, victory over the issues that face all of us. Do you think the apostles went to their deaths defeated empty men, lost in confusion and sin?
Roger accused me of being a hypocrite, of being empty, and having no grasp of the gospel or my Lord. Do you realise how serious that is as a statement? Or do spiritual things mean so little to you also.
The Kingdom is real, and its authority and who the Living God, the Lord of Hosts is. I speak out of my experience, out of my life and understanding of His word. So ofcourse I respond to his suggestion, and I do not take lightly to his understanding. Did not the pharisees and saducess likewise critize Jesus for speaking simple emotional reality. He said come and follow me, not believe these doctrines, these principles, that theological concept. He spent time with the sinners because they needed help. He spent time with them because they also were honest about the emotional mess they were in.
Many many churches are filled with born and bred believers who live double lives, and do not know who they really are. Do you think this is the fruit to eternity Jesus died for? I do not think so.
E
we need to make up our mind, are we going to be like the pharisee. Praising God we are not sinners (thus lieing to ourselves and others) or the jew who walked around the sinful sameritan.
or we going to be the ones who KNOW where we came from, and where we are, and share that love to the world. as Jesus did.
or we going to be the ones who KNOW where we came from, and where we are, and share that love to the world. as Jesus did.
E
And you think Roger and I teach otherwise?
Again, your talk from ignorance of the facts of what we believe, If your not going to stop to listen. don;t get angry when your confronted for bearing false witness against us.
have you asked him why? I do not know your gospel. All I see is your accusing nature with facts which are not true.
Are you honest about this? Would you invite the child molester or rapist into your home and share Gods love with them? Or judge them. Jesus would invite them in, just like has has us all when we were his enemy. He does not look at us in favoritism, We are all sinners and ALL unworthy of Gods love, do you somehow think you are now worthy because you do good?
Yeah they do. I have seen them and was actually apart of them.
You know what separates them from churches who have open minded Christians who have changed lives and love God, share their struggles and fears with each other, and their love of God to the world?
The churches which live double lives teach holiness, judgment and law. Not grace.
Again, your talk from ignorance of the facts of what we believe, If your not going to stop to listen. don;t get angry when your confronted for bearing false witness against us.
have you asked him why? I do not know your gospel. All I see is your accusing nature with facts which are not true.
Are you honest about this? Would you invite the child molester or rapist into your home and share Gods love with them? Or judge them. Jesus would invite them in, just like has has us all when we were his enemy. He does not look at us in favoritism, We are all sinners and ALL unworthy of Gods love, do you somehow think you are now worthy because you do good?
Yeah they do. I have seen them and was actually apart of them.
You know what separates them from churches who have open minded Christians who have changed lives and love God, share their struggles and fears with each other, and their love of God to the world?
The churches which live double lives teach holiness, judgment and law. Not grace.
Since Benny Hinn seems to fail at every conceivable requirement for a prophet,
or even for a church leader...
I find it hard to believe God would use him for anything.
The bible says pretty clearly that His wrath is on false prophets,
and on those fleecing the sheep for their own gain.
I wouldn't deny that GOD healed someone in your church...
but I couldn't possibly see ascribing that to anything done by Benny Hinn.
I'd be afraid to even stand next to that guy.
I'd be too afraid of getting struck by lightening.
or even for a church leader...
I find it hard to believe God would use him for anything.
The bible says pretty clearly that His wrath is on false prophets,
and on those fleecing the sheep for their own gain.
I wouldn't deny that GOD healed someone in your church...
but I couldn't possibly see ascribing that to anything done by Benny Hinn.
I'd be afraid to even stand next to that guy.
I'd be too afraid of getting struck by lightening.
E
when someone like Benny Hinn goes into the hospitals. Heals lost souls, raises people from the dead, As Christ and his disciples did. I may be ok with it. But this hocus pocus in a church building, where many are even shown to be frauds, I have issue with.
Did what you say really happen? I would not call you a liar. God can do things even through sinful people if he desires. I have seen miracles. We had a girl who had emphasima and spots on her lung they were sure was cancer, No one laid hands on her, No one told her to come in front of the congregation so she could be healed. No one told her to give God lots of money, and come and we will heal you. We all prayed fervently, In our bible studies, in our discipleship meetings, And alone when we spent alone time with God.
The girl (who was only in her 30's) was healed completely. with no sign anything was ever wrong. And this is not the only one I have witnessed
This is a miracle. could we who prayed take credit? could we claim one man did it and hold him up? could we do anything but give credit that God answered our prayers and he gets all the glory?
This is personally how I think God works today. Not saying again that he may once in awhile work in holy roller churches. But just saying, I do not agree with them, I think we have more important things to do.
But also would not judge you,, it is the gospel that matters, not these other things which have no bearing on ones eternity.
Did what you say really happen? I would not call you a liar. God can do things even through sinful people if he desires. I have seen miracles. We had a girl who had emphasima and spots on her lung they were sure was cancer, No one laid hands on her, No one told her to come in front of the congregation so she could be healed. No one told her to give God lots of money, and come and we will heal you. We all prayed fervently, In our bible studies, in our discipleship meetings, And alone when we spent alone time with God.
The girl (who was only in her 30's) was healed completely. with no sign anything was ever wrong. And this is not the only one I have witnessed
This is a miracle. could we who prayed take credit? could we claim one man did it and hold him up? could we do anything but give credit that God answered our prayers and he gets all the glory?
This is personally how I think God works today. Not saying again that he may once in awhile work in holy roller churches. But just saying, I do not agree with them, I think we have more important things to do.
But also would not judge you,, it is the gospel that matters, not these other things which have no bearing on ones eternity.
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A
I think it's important to note that there are many reformed denominations and doctrinal positions and many Pentecostal denominations and doctrinal positions all over the world and people from both "sides" do get along all over the world.
It's true that there is a fundamental doctrinal difference between cessationism and continuationism which lies at the heart of their disagreement that is the primary reason for this unfortunate and undesirable conflict driven primarily between a small number of extremists on both sides who spend their time attacking each other unlike the vast majority of people in either doctrinal position who understand that one can be a genuine born again Christian and hold either view. Both mainstream reformed assemblies and mainstream Pentecostal assemblies fall squarely within Christian orthodoxy on essentials.
That said, with respect to the gifting of the Holy Spirit, the strict cessationists are wrong. However, it NEEDS to be stated that the vast majority of genuine born-again Christians whom hold some view of cessationism are NOT strict cessationists and that the list of world class theologians that hold some view of partial cessationism is extensive.
As someone who's experienced a genuine physical healing, deliverance from substances upon conversion (it's going on thirty years of strict sobriety and abstinence), and seen and interacted with God's spiritual kingdom; I'd have to give myself a lobotomy in order to not be a continuationist. But I certainly recognize that one does not need to be a continuationist in order to be a genuine spiritually reborn Christian who gains competency in God's Word (minus this one small issue and I have benefitted from reformed theologians in many ways.
My advice, figure out your doctrinal position with respect to cessationism/continuationism and then find something other to do with your time than attacking every other Christian that doesn't perfectly align with your own view afterwards which should be obvious really... well... at least to those who have the mind of Christ. Do you?
It's true that there is a fundamental doctrinal difference between cessationism and continuationism which lies at the heart of their disagreement that is the primary reason for this unfortunate and undesirable conflict driven primarily between a small number of extremists on both sides who spend their time attacking each other unlike the vast majority of people in either doctrinal position who understand that one can be a genuine born again Christian and hold either view. Both mainstream reformed assemblies and mainstream Pentecostal assemblies fall squarely within Christian orthodoxy on essentials.
That said, with respect to the gifting of the Holy Spirit, the strict cessationists are wrong. However, it NEEDS to be stated that the vast majority of genuine born-again Christians whom hold some view of cessationism are NOT strict cessationists and that the list of world class theologians that hold some view of partial cessationism is extensive.
As someone who's experienced a genuine physical healing, deliverance from substances upon conversion (it's going on thirty years of strict sobriety and abstinence), and seen and interacted with God's spiritual kingdom; I'd have to give myself a lobotomy in order to not be a continuationist. But I certainly recognize that one does not need to be a continuationist in order to be a genuine spiritually reborn Christian who gains competency in God's Word (minus this one small issue
and I have benefitted from reformed theologians in many ways.My advice, figure out your doctrinal position with respect to cessationism/continuationism and then find something other to do with your time than attacking every other Christian that doesn't perfectly align with your own view afterwards which should be obvious really... well... at least to those who have the mind of Christ. Do you?
On a pure experience level, there is no evidence of healing documented from Benny Hinn or others. I know unfortunately too many ethusiastic christians who claim they were healed when the thing itself would clear up by itself or was not actually a problem at all, diagnosed by doctors etc. Some of these have been close friends, well meaning but who want to badly it all to be true and real. I would dearly love to believe the integrity of my fellow believers, but unfortunately it is often sorely lacking.
Take Todd Bentley and the 30+ raised people from the dead. Zero evidence of even one.
There is ample evidence of corruption, fakery, deception throughout the properity gospel circles to say, if you follow this, you actually need to prove you are trustworthy, rather than the other way around.
As the reality in the church is confusion as to the role of Christ and his ministry, everything is up for grabs.
It is obvious that being a christian is neither simple nor clear cut, which can be demonstrated here.
But I think also that is the point. Jesus planted love in our hearts and wants to see how it will grow till the day of harvest. You can water it and keep it healthy or let the worries of this world smother its life away, but that is up to you.
Take Todd Bentley and the 30+ raised people from the dead. Zero evidence of even one.
There is ample evidence of corruption, fakery, deception throughout the properity gospel circles to say, if you follow this, you actually need to prove you are trustworthy, rather than the other way around.
As the reality in the church is confusion as to the role of Christ and his ministry, everything is up for grabs.
It is obvious that being a christian is neither simple nor clear cut, which can be demonstrated here.
But I think also that is the point. Jesus planted love in our hearts and wants to see how it will grow till the day of harvest. You can water it and keep it healthy or let the worries of this world smother its life away, but that is up to you.
A
And, as PeterJens points out, there are many charlatans and wolves that exist in this world.
But there are also those whom God has genuinely supernaturally gifted. Not one of the people PeterJen mentioned, for example, is on the list of people I've met and seen use their gifting to heal others who themselves are people I know and whose healing I have witnessed.
In some cases, such as a short limb that was lengthened up to a foot in front of my eyes there was no further verification needed. I saw it grow and the person walk normally from that point onwards afterwards. Others, we had to wait for confirmation from their doctor that the cancer was gone, for example.
And, as I stated, I felt an invisible hand of pure love reach into my chest during a worship service and heal a serious medical problem in my chest which my doctor confirmed and I've never had another problem with it to this day. That was about five years ago.
Certainly, counterfeits exist in this world as do the genuine article just like Christ said they would. But it's a logical fallacy to assert that because counterfeits exist that the genuine article cannot. And it's a false assertion to assert the genuine article does not exist and no evidence exists for them as that's untrue.
My personal experience is that the vast majority of people who expend great amounts of their time and energy falsely asserting the position of strict cessationism won't get in a car with me and spend time visiting the people I know who are gifted to witness it in action for themselves. It's amazing really to see someone who spends maybe ten thousand hours speaking against God's healing won't lift a finger to witness the genuine article for themselves when the opportunity presents itself. It's the same behavior I experience from militant atheists though. They have this in common.
But as others have noted if one has the internal life of Christ as a spiritually regenerated new creation, they have all that they truly need. This is what distinguishes the true follower of Christ.
Miracles themselves need not be dependent on such as Matthew 7:21 reveals, for they can be permitted by God's Divine power. Consider that the very name of Christ has a supernatural power all its own.
What did Christ say? "But he that doeth the will of my Father." And to do that, you need to be a spiritually regenerated new creature with a new nature. That's where the primacy lies. That's what it's all about. I hate to say it my Pentecostal friends but the miracles are just window dressing in comparison to that.
But there are also those whom God has genuinely supernaturally gifted. Not one of the people PeterJen mentioned, for example, is on the list of people I've met and seen use their gifting to heal others who themselves are people I know and whose healing I have witnessed.
In some cases, such as a short limb that was lengthened up to a foot in front of my eyes there was no further verification needed. I saw it grow and the person walk normally from that point onwards afterwards. Others, we had to wait for confirmation from their doctor that the cancer was gone, for example.
And, as I stated, I felt an invisible hand of pure love reach into my chest during a worship service and heal a serious medical problem in my chest which my doctor confirmed and I've never had another problem with it to this day. That was about five years ago.
Certainly, counterfeits exist in this world as do the genuine article just like Christ said they would. But it's a logical fallacy to assert that because counterfeits exist that the genuine article cannot. And it's a false assertion to assert the genuine article does not exist and no evidence exists for them as that's untrue.
My personal experience is that the vast majority of people who expend great amounts of their time and energy falsely asserting the position of strict cessationism won't get in a car with me and spend time visiting the people I know who are gifted to witness it in action for themselves. It's amazing really to see someone who spends maybe ten thousand hours speaking against God's healing won't lift a finger to witness the genuine article for themselves when the opportunity presents itself. It's the same behavior I experience from militant atheists though. They have this in common.
But as others have noted if one has the internal life of Christ as a spiritually regenerated new creation, they have all that they truly need. This is what distinguishes the true follower of Christ.
Miracles themselves need not be dependent on such as Matthew 7:21 reveals, for they can be permitted by God's Divine power. Consider that the very name of Christ has a supernatural power all its own.
What did Christ say? "But he that doeth the will of my Father." And to do that, you need to be a spiritually regenerated new creature with a new nature. That's where the primacy lies. That's what it's all about. I hate to say it my Pentecostal friends but the miracles are just window dressing in comparison to that.
One small point. I have argued with muslims for many years. They use language and then come up with a statement that shows there true emotional meaning. It is not the language you have that shows the soul but how you use it.
You and I probably have a very similar view of Jesus, Roger though has continually posted views which though sounding theological deny the true nature of Jesus and the gospel.
What has honed me over the years is how central love is to people, to how we are built, to everything we care about, to Jesus, to Paul and the apostles. But this is not love of hollywood, or romance, but hard caring to the death love of truth and salvation. When you see the nature of self righteousness, about the I am good enough to be accepted you realise how different Jesus is. He came to give us life, life to the full.
Now of all people I know what it means to die to the self, and to live to christ alone, to hope for life eternal, to realise we are desperately wicked and worthy of judgement. But grace plants love in our hearts that transforms us and makes us new.
The making us new is more obvious in those from disfunctional backgrounds, or families where things have gone arry.
So when I state pure scriptural reality and am called preaching a false gospel I wonder why.
Now my response is always to suggest a reason, to build a framework that makes sense of what is being said, so the truth can some out. When people run away, this speaks that it was closer to reality than they can cope with.
And I am interested in what people believe, but I probably know it already. But I am after one thing, change, and reality.
That is why the charasmatic vs reformed debate saddens me, because it effects things I care deeply about, and my church sits right in the middle of these tensions.
You and I probably have a very similar view of Jesus, Roger though has continually posted views which though sounding theological deny the true nature of Jesus and the gospel.
What has honed me over the years is how central love is to people, to how we are built, to everything we care about, to Jesus, to Paul and the apostles. But this is not love of hollywood, or romance, but hard caring to the death love of truth and salvation. When you see the nature of self righteousness, about the I am good enough to be accepted you realise how different Jesus is. He came to give us life, life to the full.
Now of all people I know what it means to die to the self, and to live to christ alone, to hope for life eternal, to realise we are desperately wicked and worthy of judgement. But grace plants love in our hearts that transforms us and makes us new.
The making us new is more obvious in those from disfunctional backgrounds, or families where things have gone arry.
So when I state pure scriptural reality and am called preaching a false gospel I wonder why.
Now my response is always to suggest a reason, to build a framework that makes sense of what is being said, so the truth can some out. When people run away, this speaks that it was closer to reality than they can cope with.
And I am interested in what people believe, but I probably know it already. But I am after one thing, change, and reality.
That is why the charasmatic vs reformed debate saddens me, because it effects things I care deeply about, and my church sits right in the middle of these tensions.
I agree completely that discernment should govern our own choices.
I am not familiar with either the Toronto Blessing or the Brownsville Revival; and from your description of them I don't think I want to be aware of them; but it is one thing to say ' that's not for me; and another to take time away from doing what the lord told us to do, for the purpose of attacking other professing believers. If what they are doing is wrong ( and from your description it likely is) God is able to deal with it without our help.
I believe that the issue of stewardship applies to more than money; and good stewardship of our time, IMO includes remaining focused on the task that the Lord Himself has given us.
I've heard nothing at all unBiblical about Brownsville (except from naysayers, of course.) And I sure wish I had gotten there, Now, Toronto, I know a bit more about, and it was someplace I would like to have been... for the first year, or so. But, then I believe some prideful men tried to make it their movement.
Enough red herrings already. Ask yourself one simple question. If you died tonight would you wake in heaven? Not an I hope so but a real answer with full assurance. Do you have the witness of the Holy Spirit with your spirit that you are a blood bought born again Christian? Can you point to a time when you asked Christ to save you and forgive you of your sins?
Stop hiding behind all the pomp of Christian jargon and get down in the dirt at the foot of the cross of Christ. You do no favor to God because you claim to be a Christian.
Do you covet the admiration and praise of men or will you share the humility and shame of Christ? The journey of true discipleship is often one paved with suffering and tribulation.
Poor old mother Theresa toiled long and hard for needy undesirable children but never professed a personal salvation in Christ. To do all she did and to reject Christ as Savior. Jesus asked what shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?
The fields are white unto harvest but the laborers are few.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Stop hiding behind all the pomp of Christian jargon and get down in the dirt at the foot of the cross of Christ. You do no favor to God because you claim to be a Christian.
Do you covet the admiration and praise of men or will you share the humility and shame of Christ? The journey of true discipleship is often one paved with suffering and tribulation.
Poor old mother Theresa toiled long and hard for needy undesirable children but never professed a personal salvation in Christ. To do all she did and to reject Christ as Savior. Jesus asked what shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?
The fields are white unto harvest but the laborers are few.
For the cause of Christ
Roger