Reformed vs Charismatic

[PeterJens]

Enough red herrings already. Ask yourself one simple question. If you died tonight would you wake in heaven? Not an I hope so but a real answer with full assurance. Do you have the witness of the Holy Spirit with your spirit that you are a blood bought born again Christian? Can you point to a time when you asked Christ to save you and forgive you of your sins?

Stop hiding behind all the pomp of Christian jargon and get down in the dirt at the foot of the cross of Christ. You do no favor to God because you claim to be a Christian.

Do you covet the admiration and praise of men or will you share the humility and shame of Christ? The journey of true discipleship is often one paved with suffering and tribulation.

Poor old mother Theresa toiled long and hard for needy undesirable children but never professed a personal salvation in Christ. To do all she did and to reject Christ as Savior. Jesus asked what shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?

The fields are white unto harvest but the laborers are few.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I know Jesus, and have repented, believed on the cross, walked in forgiveness of my Lord and Saviour, preached, led people to the Lord, been baptised as a believer and am a member of a baptist church.

My words sail across your head because you have an idea of me in your mind. It is you who are using christian jargon and not me. But answer this simple question. Why do so many fail to find life yet appear to find Jesus through the 4 spiritual laws? Why did Billy Graham have so many come forward at his missions, yet the churches are emptying.

The start is only the start. But the church got lost in roles, in obedience, in doing the right thing rather than being real. My father went to church all his life but would never talk about what he believed, too personal. My mother was so disconnected emotionally she did not know what she felt about anything, yet did what was expected of her.

If I met Jesus tonight, night, I would bow in humble adoration and love, to finally met my Lord and Saviour who has captured my heart and soul and rescued me from sin and destruction. His words burn in me, like something alive. I see things now I did not understand years ago. There is nothing I have done that makes me worthy, it is Jesus alone who is worthy, who has purchased me. But I am a new creation, whose heart desires to do good things.

But this somehow causes you to stumble, because no-one could be that happy, and praising and self assured.
So that fact our experience of the Lord is so different, how does that make you feel? Why does love knock at your door but you cannot answer. What has closed you down so much? Is that what faith is to you to run away from a situation you could not face? I am a friend not your enemy, but you appear to think I am your enemy. Why is that?

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Repentance is not a religious word we can just throw around, It has a meaning, It means to change ones mind, to agree with someone else. it does not mean to cease from sin, that is impossible.

We will never be perfect by any means, but the Bible tells you plainly and easily you do have power over sin, because it is a choice and not an action.

I was a drug and alcohol addict for years, but I overcame those things with the pwoer of Jesus and I do not commit them today.

I ceased from those SINS. I do not even think about them, because I have renewed my mind and my spirit is in control of those desires.

I have ceased from my bouts of rage and anger.

Victory from SIN is not prefectionism, it is taking back what the enemy stole from you one thought at a time.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader, Nothing is at it seems.

People do things because they make emotional sense to them, but can be the most confused rubbish ever.
I have come to see a simple idea. We are experience, emotional ideas, driven personalities. Sin, loneliness, hurt, causes us to close down, or never open up properly. Contradictions appears, things that do not function. We hide and bury them. They become lost to us, and we build what we think are stable consistant ways of coping with life.

But come the day of judgement, when all barriers are removed, nothing connects and we fall apart. Literally we need to have love set free within, to remake us, to make us eternal, children of the living God. Jesus is that thing, and his gift is the love shown through the cross, the healing reality that makes it possible for you to bridge and get rid of the inconsistencies, to build a proper life, to become real, complete, whole.

But some use religion as a way of patching up, making do, excusing, using jargon but never being whole. So do not be deceived, it is by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control etc.

Now those who are running as hard as they can from the emotions within, within religion or being self righteous or holding up some great formula that will save them are just that, husks to be blown in the wind. Jesus knows who he has called, and I testify that I know my Saviour, no matter how weak and feebly I walk, he has made me strong and purchased me by his blood to proclaim victory over sin and death, and the powers and principalities of this world. But do you know this truth in your heart? The time of testing may be nearer than we all think, but praise the Lord, he is greater than anything in this world.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

The rubber meets the road when the question is asked: "Would you take a Child Molester home?"

Hey Willie,
Ever notice the church today looks like it did back when Jesus was cleaning house?

Matt 24.12 says:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

We are seeing this unfold today. I believe this is what Jesus was saying to his disciples:

Because the homosexual agenda is abounding the love of the Church is waxing cold.

Because the liberals are in the US government and are abounding the love of the Church is waxing cold.

Because legalized drug use is abounding the love of the Church is waxing cold.

Because per-martial sex is abounding the love of the Church is waxing cold.

Because pornography is abounding the love of the Church is waxing cold.


I see many Christians talk about love, but I do not see many walk in love and it is growing cold, because iniquity is abounding.

 

[Skinski7]

We will never be perfect by any means, but the Bible tells you plainly and easily you do have power over sin, because it is a choice and not an action.

I was a drug and alcohol addict for years, but I overcame those things with the pwoer of Jesus and I do not commit them today.

I ceased from those SINS. I do not even think about them, because I have renewed my mind and my spirit is in control of those desires.

I have ceased from my bouts of rage and anger.

Victory from SIN is not prefectionism, it is taking back what the enemy stole from you one thought at a time.

Good post.

Simple and to the point.

 

[PeterJens]

Have you ceased sin? If you have you claim to be on equal ground with Christ, the only one who never sinned.

Let me take your words and mine and show the difference. I steal something, because I want it. I say that was wrong, I give it back to its owner and ask for forgiveness. I ask God to forgive me for this sin, and my intent and commit myself to not steal but work and be a good steward of what I have. I have repented of the sin of stealing, and I do not steal again. As far as stealing goes I am perfect.

Now you take this and extend it to every sin or action. Well we are not infinite and can only work on things one at a time.
It is wrong to say a christian under grace does not sin or make mistakes, but the goal is to be like Jesus, but until we meet him we will never truly understand what this means. But what I do know is I am called to walk and be transformed by the renewing of my mind. And so the debate about redemption begins, but that does not interest me. It is the idea that we should be changed.

What you appear to be saying though is we never can know victory over sin, so salvation is actually pointless because we are doomed to death and judgement. Or have you never actually thought that far before?

 

[PeterJens]

The rubber meets the road when the question is asked: "Would you take a Child Molester home?"

Sorry, I missed this question. I would take Hitler home. Everyone deserves a chance, but we are called to be as wise as snakes but as innocent as doves.

We are not here to encourage people to sin more, but to share love and life. Or are you pharisees here where you are scared of getting contaminated? I am not. I have talked to terrorists, prostitutes, people intent on having sex with me of one gender or the other.

I have had terrorists try and kill me and our team, and seen people in a prison all come to the Lord. So I do not think you guys really comprehend what we are talking about here.

Have you put your life on the line for the Lord? Have you done street evangelism, faced people ready to stone you?
I think you show your lack of life experience and your scared approach to the gospel and what Jesus was saying.

Would you be thrown to the lions because some nutcase said you were evil, or renounce you faith to save your skin?

 

[atwhatcost]

I have finished listening to videos of strange fire, a reformed view.
Oh what sadness, that people have abandoned love and truth for ectasy, wealth and influence. So much sin and failure.
Worse still those who say being real from the heart is empty, only the prison of the mind is faith.

The Spirit did not annoint so many with love, renewal, gifts, his holiness, freedom for it to be wasted in falsehood and heresy. Both sides are now calling each other possessed by evil spirits. What is true is when people become emotional and ectastic, they behave in strange ways, but this is just how the body reacts when emotions that have been bottled up so long break out. How can so many give up on love and overcoming, to go back to error and sin.

Jesus came to die to show love overcomes all, the lowest path is the highest path. After talking to many non-christians it is this reality love overcomes hatred and bitterness, which is the power of God in Christ. It is sin that destroys, evil behaviour, betrayal of commitments and relationships. But people love individuals, single people to be the source, though they fail and fall, still they are held in authority. The dominionists and those who wish to be apostles, prophets, fail because they do not realise the apostles were killed, the prophets ignored and often reviled. The apostles today lie, along with the prophets who admit most of what they say is junk. This is aberant sin and denial of God in their lives, pure hypocracy.

What is real is the work of love in so many, the exuberant joy of praising the Lord, is still real, and all that is needed. Most of the words of prophecy and reality are there in his words, which we can quote and share with one another. So I wonder what others think of the divide which is being witnessed in the church today.

ROFL! I'm into "ectasy, wealth and influence?" You can get everyone I know laughing on the floor over that. You should tell my bank that one. Maybe they'd treat me well in hopes of finding that hidden money. (I can't help but think they'd recognize someone waiting for a disability check each month just doesn't have any hidden money. lol) I'd have you tell that same thing to those who work under me, for me, and who I influence for a good belly laugh, but there are no such people. ROFL

The divide? Obviously from people like you that just assume reformed means that junk. I can't help that, but thanks for my belly laugh for the day. ROFL

You're side isn't possessed. Fairly normal God-loving people, but you're a hoot!

(Funny enough to read to hubby. He thinks you're a hoot too.)

 

[Willie-T]

Sorry, I missed this question. I would take Hitler home. Everyone deserves a chance, but we are called to be as wise as snakes but as innocent as doves.

We are not here to encourage people to sin more, but to share love and life. Or are you pharisees here where you are scared of getting contaminated? I am not. I have talked to terrorists, prostitutes, people intent on having sex with me of one gender or the other.

I have had terrorists try and kill me and our team, and seen people in a prison all come to the Lord. So I do not think you guys really comprehend what we are talking about here.

Have you put your life on the line for the Lord? Have you done street evangelism, faced people ready to stone you?
I think you show your lack of life experience and your scared approach to the gospel and what Jesus was saying.

Would you be thrown to the lions because some nutcase said you were evil, or renounce you faith to save your skin?

Oh how little you know, Pete. LOL

 

[Angela53510]

We will never be perfect by any means, but the Bible tells you plainly and easily you do have power over sin, because it is a choice and not an action.

I was a drug and alcohol addict for years, but I overcame those things with the pwoer of Jesus and I do not commit them today.

I ceased from those SINS. I do not even think about them, because I have renewed my mind and my spirit is in control of those desires.

I have ceased from my bouts of rage and anger.

Victory from SIN is not prefectionism, it is taking back what the enemy stole from you one thought at a time.

I was also delivered from alcohol when I was saved. But I did not do the work. God did! He removed the desire in my heart, and replaced it with a desire to serve and know him.

That really was one of the easiest things that has happened in my life. I believed in Christ, and he took away my drinking. But then, a couple of years later, God pointed out my temper to me.

Not so easy. A choice that took over 30 years to overcome. I repented of the sin so many times, I bet God was sick and tired of it. I know my family sure was!

But the Holy Spirit really did finally help me to overcome. I truly could not have done it on my own.

 

[Angela53510]

With regards to the OP, I have watched the Strange Fire conference and found it to be very true. I do agree that there are classic Pentecostals who do not go to the extremes of some of the Word of Faith movement. But sadly, pretty much everyone I started with in the Pentecostal Church either moved into the Word of Faith movement, and became highly unbiblical in the name of experience, or left the movement like I did, and turned to the Bible as their guide book.

Sure, WoF claims to use the Bible. But they really don't do the exegesis, and neither do the people who follow them. I am skeptical of signs and wonders, because of all the excesses I saw in Pentecostal (speaking of classic here!) in the movement. As for what has gone on recently, like in Toronto, it is a scandal. Talk about living in the flesh!

I think God is a living God, and he speaks to us. But if what God says is not confirmed in the Bible, or does not come to pass, then it is not of God. Like my friend who claimed healing of breast cancer, did not get treatment and died 10 months later. Or another friend who has written a commentary on the whole Bible. He barely speaks English, getting only a grade 6 education in Jamaica. But he gets "dreams and visions" then writes them down. They read like a sci fi adventure. Totally devoid of any Biblical reality. That is, if you can get through the really bad grammar and the horrendous spelling.

Oh yes, and some of my Pentecostal friends, who were "on fire for God" left Jesus altogether. Now that is something I don't understand, but I imagine that happens in all denominations.

So is this OP supposed to condemn those who follow the Bible? I am not Reformed but Baptist and I side with John MacArthur on sticking to the Bible, and the Word trumping experience and excess. I would suggest that anyone who has not watched Strange Fire watch it for yourself and then decide what you think.

I do think it was a profitable use of my time!

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

'strange fire' is one of the most intellectually dishonest presentations i have ever seen from a christian source...

there are legitimate and fair criticisms of the pentecostal and charismatic movements...and then there is what john macarthur did...

the whole thing was reminiscent of the kind of misleading attacks and rhetoric you would expect from some sleazy politician...not a respected theologian like john macarthur is supposed to be...

 

[maxwel]

'strange fire' is one of the most intellectually dishonest presentations i have ever seen from a christian source...

there are legitimate and fair criticisms of the pentecostal and charismatic movements...and then there is what john macarthur did...

the whole thing was reminiscent of the kind of misleading attacks and rhetoric you would expect from some sleazy politician...not a respected theologian like john macarthur is supposed to be...

What an interesting thing to say.

So you think ... ohh... someone like Benny Hinn is more intellectually honest?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

What an interesting thing to say.

So you think ... ohh... someone like Benny Hinn is more intellectually honest?

........no

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I'm going to quote myself lol:

"But as others have noted if one has the internal life of Christ as a spiritually regenerated new creation, they have all that they truly need. This is what distinguishes the true follower of Christ.

Miracles themselves need not be dependent on such as Matthew 7:21 reveals, for they can be permitted by God's Divine power. Consider that the very name of Christ has a supernatural power all its own.

What did Christ say? "But he that doeth the will of my Father." And to do that, you need to be a spiritually regenerated new creature with a new nature. That's where the primacy lies. That's what it's all about. I hate to say it my Pentecostal friends but the miracles are just window dressing in comparison to that."

PEACE!

 

[crossnote]

And, as PeterJens points out, there are many charlatans and wolves that exist in this world.

But there are also those whom God has genuinely supernaturally gifted. Not one of the people PeterJen mentioned, for example, is on the list of people I've met and seen use their gifting to heal others who themselves are people I know and whose healing I have witnessed.

In some cases, such as a short limb that was lengthened up to a foot in front of my eyes there was no further verification needed. I saw it grow and the person walk normally from that point onwards afterwards. Others, we had to wait for confirmation from their doctor that the cancer was gone, for example.

And, as I stated, I felt an invisible hand of pure love reach into my chest during a worship service and heal a serious medical problem in my chest which my doctor confirmed and I've never had another problem with it to this day. That was about five years ago.

Certainly, counterfeits exist in this world as do the genuine article just like Christ said they would. But it's a logical fallacy to assert that because counterfeits exist that the genuine article cannot. And it's a false assertion to assert the genuine article does not exist and no evidence exists for them as that's untrue.

My personal experience is that the vast majority of people who expend great amounts of their time and energy falsely asserting the position of strict cessationism won't get in a car with me and spend time visiting the people I know who are gifted to witness it in action for themselves. It's amazing really to see someone who spends maybe ten thousand hours speaking against God's healing won't lift a finger to witness the genuine article for themselves when the opportunity presents itself. It's the same behavior I experience from militant atheists though. They have this in common.

But as others have noted if one has the internal life of Christ as a spiritually regenerated new creation, they have all that they truly need. This is what distinguishes the true follower of Christ.

Miracles themselves need not be dependent on such as Matthew 7:21 reveals, for they can be permitted by God's Divine power. Consider that the very name of Christ has a supernatural power all its own.

What did Christ say? "But he that doeth the will of my Father." And to do that, you need to be a spiritually regenerated new creature with a new nature. That's where the primacy lies. That's what it's all about. I hate to say it my Pentecostal friends but the miracles are just window dressing in comparison to that.

This is a good point; because of the fact that there are counterfeits, it's a good indication that the real thing is close by.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

*grin and thumbs up*

This is a good point; because of the fact that there are counterfeits, it's a good indication that the real thing is close by.

 

[PeterJens]

ROFL! I'm into "ectasy, wealth and influence?"

There is so much lying and deception here. The theology preached is sow wealth or money and you will receive back wealth and money, like the lottery, sow into the kingdom and you will reap worldly wealth back.

Jesus said the opposite. Sow into the kingdom and you build up wealth in heaven where none take away, or will rot and decay.

"The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful." Matt 13:22

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matt 6:19-21

The prosperity preachers no longer preach about sin and judgement, the ending of the soul and the bitterness of failure, with repentance and love bringing new life, because this is no longer their faith. It is about anointing, and a spiritual experience is what being a christian is, angelic intervention as they call it. What you get is an emotional high, which like a drug must be maintained, but without theology or context, so the faith can then be changed into mystical experience.

The pressure is on preachers then to invent spiritual encounters in heaven, to feed this hysteria, to create an illusion of progress. But like all sin it will end in spiritual death, and the loss of faith of many.

A judgement on these people is the hysterical laughing. What is so funny is the idea of them being creative beings with an anointing, when they are literally just people in a room spouting words. Now that is funny, absurdly, insanely funny and rediculous, which these people testify to by their very behaviour by calling it a mysterious reaction. It is their sub conscious saying this is all so stupid it is funny. This is how insane and disfunctional these people are, they think an emotional reaction is something different than it actually is, like a comedian telling a joke, yet they simply cannot place it.

This is the world of LSD trips, of delusion, of insanity with no goal to find reality or spiritual and emotional truth.

But Jesus came to bring life to us, real truth, freeing us from sin and death. That is the power of the gospel but not found here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know Jesus, and have repented, believed on the cross, walked in forgiveness of my Lord and Saviour, preached, led people to the Lord, been baptised as a believer and am a member of a baptist church.

My words sail across your head because you have an idea of me in your mind. It is you who are using christian jargon and not me. But answer this simple question. Why do so many fail to find life yet appear to find Jesus through the 4 spiritual laws? Why did Billy Graham have so many come forward at his missions, yet the churches are emptying.

The start is only the start. But the church got lost in roles, in obedience, in doing the right thing rather than being real. My father went to church all his life but would never talk about what he believed, too personal. My mother was so disconnected emotionally she did not know what she felt about anything, yet did what was expected of her.

If I met Jesus tonight, night, I would bow in humble adoration and love, to finally met my Lord and Saviour who has captured my heart and soul and rescued me from sin and destruction. His words burn in me, like something alive. I see things now I did not understand years ago. There is nothing I have done that makes me worthy, it is Jesus alone who is worthy, who has purchased me. But I am a new creation, whose heart desires to do good things.

But this somehow causes you to stumble, because no-one could be that happy, and praising and self assured.
So that fact our experience of the Lord is so different, how does that make you feel? Why does love knock at your door but you cannot answer. What has closed you down so much? Is that what faith is to you to run away from a situation you could not face? I am a friend not your enemy, but you appear to think I am your enemy. Why is that?

Your worrying me. Not once did you say you know for a fact you would be in heaven. why is that? is that so hard.

What kind of baptist are you. I grew up in a baptist church, and I know why they are emptying, and it is not because people are seeking Godliness. or want to live in sin. It is because there is no life in those churches. It is all about what we do. and what you do not do. And not about LOVE.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We will never be perfect by any means, but the Bible tells you plainly and easily you do have power over sin, because it is a choice and not an action.

I was a drug and alcohol addict for years, but I overcame those things with the pwoer of Jesus and I do not commit them today.

I ceased from those SINS. I do not even think about them, because I have renewed my mind and my spirit is in control of those desires.

I have ceased from my bouts of rage and anger.

Victory from SIN is not prefectionism, it is taking back what the enemy stole from you one thought at a time.

so, do you think you had victory over those sins because you just forgot about them.

or maybe because you started to learn to worry about self less. and started to concentrate on loving others?