Reformed vs Charismatic

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me take your words and mine and show the difference. I steal something, because I want it. I say that was wrong, I give it back to its owner and ask for forgiveness. I ask God to forgive me for this sin, and my intent and commit myself to not steal but work and be a good steward of what I have. I have repented of the sin of stealing, and I do not steal again. As far as stealing goes I am perfect.

I see alot of you in that equation. And I have a major problem with that. Whenever some says "I did this. I did that" that is self focus and boasting. that is not giving credit where credit is do. it is taking credit for something.

Your right, you did steal because you thought of self. But you went around healing the wrong way. You see, if I did that, and God confronted me (which he always does) I see my pride, my arrogance, my lack of love. And I see my failing. I do not do some religious thing like repent, and excuse my sin. I admit my failing to God and others (confess) then try to learn from my sin. why did I do it. What caused it. what was the underlying issue. Then I seek to change those attitudes to not put myself in that area of temptation again.

This is the only way to stop sin in a Godly way, Don;t fool yourself. a man of the world can stop stealing and become "perfect" in that area as you claim. it does not make him a man of God or a person who is righteous.

Now you take this and extend it to every sin or action. Well we are not infinite and can only work on things one at a time.

As a growing baptist. I tried it your way. It never worked. I would stop some sins, or not fall into some sins, and boast of myself how Good I was. All the while not seeing the other sin in my life. and the problem with my lack of growth. I could not figure it out. because I was to focused on what I did not do. then what I needed to do.

It was not till I got out of religion and found a church that teaches relationship, that I found victory and growth.

It is wrong to say a christian under grace does not sin or make mistakes, but the goal is to be like Jesus, but until we meet him we will never truly understand what this means. But what I do know is I am called to walk and be transformed by the renewing of my mind. And so the debate about redemption begins, but that does not interest me. It is the idea that we should be changed.

wow. We have a WHOLE bible that shows us how Jesus is, why he did things, and how to live like him, but you claim we can never know?

Your problem is your stuck in legalism and self effort. and because of it, your left blind to find the true way to victory, and true way to live as Christ did. Maybe you will want to know It would be great to help you. But I fear like many, yuo do not really want to know how flawed you are. That was the pharisee problem. I ask you. to you want to remain like them. or do you want to find the real way to find victory?

What you appear to be saying though is we never can know victory over sin, so salvation is actually pointless because we are doomed to death and judgement. Or have you never actually thought that far before?

I have found the way to victory. So you are not understanding a word I say. Eternal justification from my sin by a truly loving God is the cornerstone of victory over sin. If we try to lay our foundation on anything else. we will fail. All we will have left is the refusal to admit how sinful we are. and puffing yourself up to how good we are. A blindness to truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, I missed this question. I would take Hitler home. Everyone deserves a chance, but we are called to be as wise as snakes but as innocent as doves.

We are not here to encourage people to sin more, but to share love and life. Or are you pharisees here where you are scared of getting contaminated? I am not. I have talked to terrorists, prostitutes, people intent on having sex with me of one gender or the other.

I have had terrorists try and kill me and our team, and seen people in a prison all come to the Lord. So I do not think you guys really comprehend what we are talking about here.

Have you put your life on the line for the Lord? Have you done street evangelism, faced people ready to stone you?
I think you show your lack of life experience and your scared approach to the gospel and what Jesus was saying.

Would you be thrown to the lions because some nutcase said you were evil, or renounce you faith to save your skin?

Sounds awful phariseeish to me. You love to boast of what you do. You sound like one who would stand on the street corner praising God for all you do and do not do.

WHy do you like to judge? You do not think he or others would do this? You speak of things you do not know.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was also delivered from alcohol when I was saved. But I did not do the work. God did! He removed the desire in my heart, and replaced it with a desire to serve and know him.

That really was one of the easiest things that has happened in my life. I believed in Christ, and he took away my drinking. But then, a couple of years later, God pointed out my temper to me.

Not so easy. A choice that took over 30 years to overcome. I repented of the sin so many times, I bet God was sick and tired of it. I know my family sure was!

But the Holy Spirit really did finally help me to overcome. I truly could not have done it on my own.

Aww. Someone who found the true way to victory. Praise God sister.

 

[atwhatcost]

There is so much lying and deception here. The theology preached is sow wealth or money and you will receive back wealth and money, like the lottery, sow into the kingdom and you will reap worldly wealth back.

Jesus said the opposite. Sow into the kingdom and you build up wealth in heaven where none take away, or will rot and decay.

"The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful." Matt 13:22

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matt 6:19-21

The prosperity preachers no longer preach about sin and judgement, the ending of the soul and the bitterness of failure, with repentance and love bringing new life, because this is no longer their faith. It is about anointing, and a spiritual experience is what being a christian is, angelic intervention as they call it. What you get is an emotional high, which like a drug must be maintained, but without theology or context, so the faith can then be changed into mystical experience.

The pressure is on preachers then to invent spiritual encounters in heaven, to feed this hysteria, to create an illusion of progress. But like all sin it will end in spiritual death, and the loss of faith of many.

A judgement on these people is the hysterical laughing. What is so funny is the idea of them being creative beings with an anointing, when they are literally just people in a room spouting words. Now that is funny, absurdly, insanely funny and rediculous, which these people testify to by their very behaviour by calling it a mysterious reaction. It is their sub conscious saying this is all so stupid it is funny. This is how insane and disfunctional these people are, they think an emotional reaction is something different than it actually is, like a comedian telling a joke, yet they simply cannot place it.

This is the world of LSD trips, of delusion, of insanity with no goal to find reality or spiritual and emotional truth.

But Jesus came to bring life to us, real truth, freeing us from sin and death. That is the power of the gospel but not found here.

The prosperity charlatans aren't reformed, charismatic nor both, and yet, somehow you managed to lump us all together. What exactly do you think tickled my funny bone yesterday. (Whoops. Now down to an occasional escaped snort, because I laughed until it hurt my sides, and my sides still hurt. )

 

[Joshua_Generation]

when someone like Benny Hinn goes into the hospitals. Heals lost souls, raises people from the dead, As Christ and his disciples did. I may be ok with it. But this hocus pocus in a church building, where many are even shown to be frauds, I have issue with.

Did what you say really happen? I would not call you a liar. God can do things even through sinful people if he desires. I have seen miracles. We had a girl who had emphasima and spots on her lung they were sure was cancer, No one laid hands on her, No one told her to come in front of the congregation so she could be healed. No one told her to give God lots of money, and come and we will heal you. We all prayed fervently, In our bible studies, in our discipleship meetings, And alone when we spent alone time with God.

The girl (who was only in her 30's) was healed completely. with no sign anything was ever wrong. And this is not the only one I have witnessed

This is a miracle. could we who prayed take credit? could we claim one man did it and hold him up? could we do anything but give credit that God answered our prayers and he gets all the glory?

This is personally how I think God works today. Not saying again that he may once in awhile work in holy roller churches. But just saying, I do not agree with them, I think we have more important things to do.

But also would not judge you,, it is the gospel that matters, not these other things which have no bearing on ones eternity.

Are you stating God changes how he works? The Bible says God does not change and Jesus is the yesterday, today and forever.

 

[crossnote]

Another overlooked difference between the Reformed and Charismatics is that the former emphasis is on the Giver of the gifts while the latter emphasizes the Gifts themselves.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

so, do you think you had victory over those sins because you just forgot about them.

or maybe because you started to learn to worry about self less. and started to concentrate on loving others?

Since you seem to think God changes how he works, and he is not the same yesterday, today and forever, I am not sure how to answer your questions without you getting self righteous on me.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Another overlooked difference between the Reformed and Charismatics is that the former emphasis is on the Giver of the gifts while the latter emphasizes the Gifts themselves.

So did The giver of the Gifts place emphasis on the gifts and operate in them as well?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you stating God changes how he works? The Bible says God does not change and Jesus is the yesterday, today and forever.

he is the same at all times. His gospel has not changed.

But if you study the history in his word. there were times he did many things, and times he was quiet (most notably the time between Micah and his birth)

that does not mean he changed, it just means at differing times he used differing things, and at times, he was completely quiet and let his written word and people show his truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Since you seem to think God changes how he works, and he is not the same yesterday, today and forever, I am not sure how to answer your questions without you getting self righteous on me.

Well it seems you have made up your mind what I believe without even trying to figure it out. So you probably should like what I say anyway, I probably would not say what you think I would say. thus could not receive it

 

[MarcR]

What an interesting thing to say.

So you think ... ohh... someone like Benny Hinn is more intellectually honest?

Uncharacteristic reply IMO.


Benny Hinn is not respected therefore is no reason to expect better of him.

John MacArthur is respected therefore there is good reason to expect better of him.

The fact is that even respected theologians occasionally put thir foot in their mouth even without realizing what they are doing.

 

[PeterJens]

Your worrying me. Not once did you say you know for a fact you would be in heaven. why is that? is that so hard.

What kind of baptist are you. I grew up in a baptist church, and I know why they are emptying, and it is not because people are seeking Godliness. or want to live in sin. It is because there is no life in those churches. It is all about what we do. and what you do not do. And not about LOVE.

Interesting point, heaven. We will be where, in the eternal city, or on the new earth or somewhere else.
Will we meet the Lord in the sky when he returns, at the judgement seat or somewhere else.
So automatically I talk about meeting the Lord, not where, because it is that face to face meeting that matters.

In our baptist church we have spent a whole month talking about community and loving each other.
So maybe your experience is different to mine, but no supprise there.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

he is the same at all times. His gospel has not changed.

But if you study the history in his word. there were times he did many things, and times he was quiet (most notably the time between Micah and his birth)

that does not mean he changed, it just means at differing times he used differing things, and at times, he was completely quiet and let his written word and people show his truth.

Thank you for the clarification. I see I was misunderstanding your comments.

God only works through people, that never has changed, yet many think it has.

Not saying you believe this.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Well it seems you have made up your mind what I believe without even trying to figure it out. So you probably should like what I say anyway, I probably would not say what you think I would say. thus could not receive it

This was unfair of me, but you had no answered yet and I just read your answer, so it is all good.

I never said I forgot my sins, I said that I do not think about them anymore. Ito further explain, when the thought comes into my mind to drink, it is immediately brought into captivity.

Worrying about myself less? interesting take. Loving others did not eradicate my sin consciousness. The power of Gods word did that. My love towards others,helps me, t0 help them gain vicotry in their own life.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Interesting point, heaven. We will be where, in the eternal city, or on the new earth or somewhere else.
Will we meet the Lord in the sky when he returns, at the judgement seat or somewhere else.
So automatically I talk about meeting the Lord, not where, because it is that face to face meeting that matters.

In our baptist church we have spent a whole month talking about community and loving each other.
So maybe your experience is different to mine, but no supprise there.

agreed,
The Bible clearly states our final destination is the new heaven and new earth and for decades, even centuries, Christians have been talking bout them streets of gold in heaven, when those streets are in the New Jerusalem.

Heaven is not our home the new Jerusalem on the new earth is.

 

[Willie-T]

agreed,
The Bible clearly states our final destination is the new heaven and new earth and for decades, even centuries, Christians have been talking bout them streets of gold in heaven, when those streets are in the New Jerusalem.

Heaven is not our home the new Jerusalem on the new earth is.

Ever do the math on that "City?" 50 miles between gates, and walls extending a couple of miles into outer space?

 

[PeterJens]

As a growing baptist. I tried it your way. It never worked.

The pharisees made one big mistake. They preached the law and yet failed to keep it, they put condemnation on those around them yet failed to help the walk. They wanted a show of all the good things they have done.

Now you believe for some reason I think I am worthy. No I am a sinner worthy of judgement and hell.
I talk of things in my heart that are good because these are the fruit of the spirit. I can only imagine that you think I am saying I am better than you, but I have no clue as to what you do, and what you experience or who you are.

All I can imagine is what I am saying must be a massive challenge to you, or else you would not be trying to say I am a hypocrite, a white washed tomb. Now I know this line of argument, but I use it against a religion which has the claim of being superior but openly exploits women and abuses them, murders people and takes away their rights. It is hard therefore for a brother to be accusing me of such sin, when I am innocent of such behaviour.

Or in your mind to have victory by loving people from the heart is a strange experience because you find love so hard to do.

I got to laugh. However you are taking what I am saying, it certainly does not fit you little boxes for your view on faith so you do not know what I am. You appear to be saying something similar to me, it is about relationship, but you seem to think I do not have one. I know, if I was a relationship mess, crawling around the floor saying I am a slave to sin, I am lost without hope, but I have this faith that will pull me through, then you would say I know the truth.

Jesus came to that we might know life and have it to the full.
John 10:9-10 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

Do you know what this verse means?

 

[maxwel]

Uncharacteristic reply IMO.


Benny Hinn is not respected therefore is no reason to expect better of him.

John MacArthur is respected therefore there is good reason to expect better of him.

The fact is that even respected theologians occasionally put thir foot in their mouth even without realizing what they are doing.

1. You are making an assumption that Benny Hinn IS NOT respected.
Though much of the world considers him a fraud, many many people (even people on CC) still believe in him implicitly.
Many people around the world still respect a great deal.

2. You are making an assumption that John MacArthur IS respected.
Many people on CC, and throughout the world, have been calling him a heretic for YEARS.
He is disrespected by many people around the globe.

3. It is YOUR opinion that John MacArthur "put his foot in his mouth".
It is not the opinion of all people everywhere.



Conclusion:
On every single point above, you have CLEARLY been imposing nothing but your own OPINIONS.

That's fine.
This is a very heated topic, about which people become very passionate.

Please just recognize what you did.
I expect you to have opinions.
You're a very logical guy, and a very intelligent guy,
but everything you stated above was opinion.

 

[kohelet]

We have a woman in our congregation who honestly WAS healed at a Benny Hinn conference. What do we do with that? She might still have cancer if she hadn't gone there and let him do his hocus pocus magic show.

I have my misgivings about Benny Hinn too, but like Willie know someone who was healed at one of Benny Hinn's meetings. This young woman had had a severe stroke and was paralysed but was instantaneously and completely healed and remains healed with absolutely no after-effects of the stroke, which had been considerable (her face had been badly disfigured). She and her husband went on to become involved in missionary outreach.

What at do we make of this? [Bracing myself a bit... expecting a backlash from the ultra-conservative camp.]

 

[PeterJens]

Your problem is your stuck in legalism and self effort.

Lol. If I am stuck in anything it is stupid christians who do not know what a christian actually is. To put it mildly christians have started to read the bible, listen to Jesus's words and make a faith that fits them rather than applying it to their real lives.

There was a good program about a theological college which trained pastors. One trainee pastor appeared well balanced, loving, kind etc. but after a time it became apparent everything they did had been learnt from others and nothing came from within, and they literally could not empathise properly because they did not know what they felt.

So many hear the words Jesus spoke, but it does not touch them, it is a dream they are trying on. In some cultures they call this skin deep christianity. Now this is what interests me, because I know what I am, what my words mean but they cause you great problems. Why is that?

I think you bought into the idea not we are sinners, but we are contaminated filth only worthy of death, with nothing of value. But you have overdone it. We do have value which is why Jesus died for us. Now the best way I can describe this value is we can love, from the heart, we can walk as Jesus walk, that there is real hope for regeneration.

Now do you realise I take Jesus at his word. He counts me worthy because of His death, that I can walk as He hoped. But the power of this walk is Jesus's love, shown eternally through the cross. Maybe this is a new gospel to you, maybe this is something you guessed at and missed, I do not know. This is the gospel of the Kingdom. I preach Christ crucified and that alone. Now it sounds like you are judging me, saying I am not worthy in Jesus, in showing his love, in living by his power and praise daily. But think about that. Not that I boast but that I know Jesus is my Lord.

There is an aesthetic ideal in christian tradition which says we must punish ourselves for sins or wrong attitudes or anger or any failure we think has occurred. But what if the reality is love has not remade these people, rewoven a response of love, where forgiveness and grace comes to the fore, because love has not been set free within. I am writing this not because I fully understand this reality, but I know I am different from where you are, and I know this is reality.

So I just bow and praise My Lord, thankyou that you have changed me and given me streams of living water