Reformed vs Charismatic

[maxwel]

MarcR,

If I seemed offensive, please accept my apology.

I was really just trying to make the point that this is a VERY personal issue,
about which EVERYONE is extremely passionate,
and we all have very strong opinions.

Often those opinions are so strong we don't even recognize them as opinions.

That's all.

God Bless,
Max

 

[kohelet]

'strange fire' is one of the most intellectually dishonest presentations i have ever seen from a christian source...

there are legitimate and fair criticisms of the pentecostal and charismatic movements...and then there is what john macarthur did...

the whole thing was reminiscent of the kind of misleading attacks and rhetoric you would expect from some sleazy politician...not a respected theologian like john macarthur is supposed to be...

YES, Rachel! How good to hear someone say this! John MacArthur was dishonest years ago with his dreadful Charismatic Chaos. And to think the apparently more cerebral and clear-thinking people swallow it uncritically!

 

[kohelet]

What an interesting thing to say.

So you think ... ohh... someone like Benny Hinn is more intellectually honest?

Maxwel, your comment is classic MacArthur, damning all Charismatics by putting them on (in your mind) the lunatic fringe.

 

[maxwel]

Maxwel, your comment is classic MacArthur, damning all Charismatics by putting them on (in your mind) the lunatic fringe.

Actually, if you would look at what I ACTUALLY SAID,
instead of what YOU CHOSE TO READ INTO IT,
you would see that's not what I did at all.

I didn't even mention the charismatic movement.
Nowhere.
Not once.
I simply questioned a statement made by Rachel.

If I say "Benny Hinn", and you assume I'm talking about the whole charismatic movement...
that is all you.
It has nothing to do with what I actually said.

Maybe you need to relax.
: )

 

[valiant]

I have my misgivings about Benny Hinn too, but like Willie know someone who was healed at one of Benny Hinn's meetings. This young woman had had a severe stroke and was paralysed but was instantaneously and completely healed and remains healed with absolutely no after-effects of the stroke, which had been considerable (her face had been badly disfigured). She and her husband went on to become involved in missionary outreach.

What at do we make of this? [Bracing myself a bit... expecting a backlash from the ultra-conservative camp.]

In November 2004, the CBC Television show The Fifth Estate did a special titled "Do You Believe in Miracles" on the apparent transgressions committed by Benny Hinn's ministry.[SUP][1][/SUP]
With the aid of hidden cameras and crusade witnesses, the producers of the show demonstrated Benny's apparent misappropriation of funds, his fabrication of the truth, and the way in which his staff chose crusade audience members to come on stage to proclaim their miracle healings.[SUP][1][/SUP] In particular, the investigation highlighted the fact that the most desperate miracle seekers who attend a Hinn crusade—the quadriplegics, the brain-damaged, virtually anyone with a visibly obvious physical condition—are never allowed up on stage; those who attempt to get in the line of possible healings are intercepted and directed to return to their seats. At one Canadian service, hidden cameras showed a mother who was carrying her Muscular Dystrophy-afflicted daughter, Grace, being stopped by two screeners when they attempted to get into the line for a possible blessing from Benny. The screeners asked the mother if Grace had been healed, and when the mother replied in the negative, they were told to return to their seats; the pair got out of line, but Grace, wanting "Pastor Benny to pray for [her]," asked her mother to support her as she tried to walk as a show of "her faith in action," according to the mother. After several unsuccessful attempts at walking, the pair left the arena in tears, both mother and daughter visibly upset at being turned aside and crying as they explained to the undercover reporters that all Grace had wanted was for Benny to pray for her, but the staffers rushed them out of the line when they found out Grace had not been healed.[SUP][1][/SUP] A week later at a service in Toronto, Baptist evangelist Justin Peters, who wrote his Masters in Divinity thesis on Benny Hinn[SUP][23][/SUP]and has attended numerous Hinn crusades since 2000 as part of his research for his thesis and for a seminar he developed about the Word of Faith movement entitled A Call for Discernment,[SUP][24][/SUP] also demonstrated to the hidden cameras that "people who look like me"—Peters has cerebral palsy, walks with arm-crutches, and is obviously and visibly disabled—"are neverallowed on stage[...]it's always somebody who has some disability or disease that cannot be readily seen." Like Grace and her mother, Peters was quickly intercepted as he came out of the wheelchair section (there is one at every crusade, situated at the back of the audience, far away from the stage, and never filmed for Hinn's TV show) in an attempt to join the line of those waiting to go onstage, and was told to take a seat.[SUP][1]

Incidentally I had never heard of him til now[/SUP]

 

[kohelet]

Actually, if you would look at what I ACTUALLY SAID,
instead of what YOU CHOSE TO READ INTO IT,
you would see that's not what I did at all.

I didn't even mention the charismatic movement.
Nowhere.
Not once.
I simply questioned a statement made by Rachel.

If I say "Benny Hinn", and you assume I'm talking about the whole charismatic movement...
that is all you.
It has nothing to do with what I actually said.

Maybe you need to relax.
: )

But you were replying to Rachel's "there are legitimate and fair criticisms of the pentecostal and charismatic movements...and then there is what john macarthur did...". She had mentioned the Pentecostal and charismatic movements. You responded with the Benny Hinn comment, tarring them all with the same brush.

 

[maxwel]

But you were replying to Rachel's "there are legitimate and fair criticisms of the pentecostal and charismatic movements...and then there is what john macarthur did...". She had mentioned the Pentecostal and charismatic movements. You responded with the Benny Hinn comment, tarring them all with the same brush.

Kohelet,

I will make you a personal promise.
When I have the time to fully discuss and debate the charismatic movement,
I PROMISE I'll tar you with a special brush that's ONLY for you.


Come on, I thought that was pretty funny.

 

[Willie-T]

Kohelet,

I will make you a personal promise.
When I have the time to fully discuss and debate the charismatic movement,
I PROMISE I'll tar you with a special brush that's ONLY for you.


Come on, I thought that was pretty funny.

So did I........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting point, heaven. We will be where, in the eternal city, or on the new earth or somewhere else.
Will we meet the Lord in the sky when he returns, at the judgement seat or somewhere else.
So automatically I talk about meeting the Lord, not where, because it is that face to face meeting that matters.

In our baptist church we have spent a whole month talking about community and loving each other.
So maybe your experience is different to mine, but no supprise there.

They would talk about it, but only internally Not to the world. We are to go out into the world and serve. not just internally. It was also a bunch of hypocrites, they would not act the same in church as they would at home or in the world. Thats why I got out of it.

The victory over sin is loving others. that how you take focus off of self. and learn to live Christlike

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This was unfair of me, but you had no answered yet and I just read your answer, so it is all good.

I never said I forgot my sins, I said that I do not think about them anymore. Ito further explain, when the thought comes into my mind to drink, it is immediately brought into captivity.

Worrying about myself less? interesting take. Loving others did not eradicate my sin consciousness. The power of Gods word did that. My love towards others,helps me, t0 help them gain vicotry in their own life.

I just go by what the word says. Again I tried it your way, it did not work.

Scripture tells us how and makes it clear.

Rom 13:[SUP]8 [/SUP]Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The pharisees made one big mistake. They preached the law and yet failed to keep it, they put condemnation on those around them yet failed to help the walk. They wanted a show of all the good things they have done.

Yep. Just like all the legalists I have ever come across who preach we must follow some law (stop sin) and live as they do, or we are condemned. Sound familiar?

Now you believe for some reason I think I am worthy. No I am a sinner worthy of judgement and hell.
I talk of things in my heart that are good because these are the fruit of the spirit. I can only imagine that you think I am saying I am better than you, but I have no clue as to what you do, and what you experience or who you are.

All I can imagine is what I am saying must be a massive challenge to you, or else you would not be trying to say I am a hypocrite, a white washed tomb. Now I know this line of argument, but I use it against a religion which has the claim of being superior but openly exploits women and abuses them, murders people and takes away their rights. It is hard therefore for a brother to be accusing me of such sin, when I am innocent of such behaviour.

You sound just like them, I am not saying you are. Just saying what I hear coming from you. You may not do what the people you said you would not be like do. But who gave you the right to cast the first stone. are you sinless? That is what bothers me about legalism. You just did it right there. you just judged people. yet you said you would not be like them and hold yourself as more worthy than they are.

Now does that make what they do ok? Amd I excusing there sin? NO! (although I am sure in your mind I am) What I am saying, is lets take the log out of our eye before we try to remove the speck from our brothers. And if they do not even have God. They have no capacity to stop sin anyway, They need God to do that. so you think your judging them is going to save them? Romans 1 says they already know they are judged, they do not need me and you to come remind them of their judgment, All I have ever seen that do is turn people off. Making them hate God and call us hypocrites. (because we are not as holy as we think we are)

You said scripture did not tell us how Jesus was. I disagree, he showed us, He went to them, He loved them, he did not judge them, His love for them brought them to him. Then AFTER they recieved him, they wanted to change. It was the power of God which changed them,

The pharisees judge things like that, And from what I just read from you. That sounded more like what a pharisee would say, then what Jesus would say. You may not be trying to come across that way, but you are. I used to be that way, It was programmed into me. it took a few years to get rid of they hypocrisy of my upbringing in legalism

Or in your mind to have victory by loving people from the heart is a strange experience because you find love so hard to do.

Love is easy, when you allow Christ to love you. Maybe you have never experienced what it is like to love someone unconditionally? I know it was hard in my church. They would look at what people looked like or acted. And judge them without even getting to know them.

I got to laugh. However you are taking what I am saying, it certainly does not fit you little boxes for your view on faith so you do not know what I am. You appear to be saying something similar to me, it is about relationship, but you seem to think I do not have one. I know, if I was a relationship mess, crawling around the floor saying I am a slave to sin, I am lost without hope, but I have this faith that will pull me through, then you would say I know the truth.

All I am saying is you sould alot like me 20 years ago! I am not talking out of my head. I am talking from experience.

Jesus came to that we might know life and have it to the full.
John 10:9-10 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

Do you know what this verse means?

Yep. and until about 10 years ago, Although I thought i knew what that meant growing up. I learned i did not have a clue.

Thank God he rescued from that system of religion that so ensnares traditional churches.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. You are making an assumption that Benny Hinn IS NOT respected.
Though much of the world considers him a fraud, many many people (even people on CC) still believe in him implicitly.
Many people around the world still respect a great deal.

2. You are making an assumption that John MacArthur IS respected.
Many people on CC, and throughout the world, have been calling him a heretic for YEARS.
He is disrespected by many people around the globe.

3. It is YOUR opinion that John MacArthur "put his foot in his mouth".
It is not the opinion of all people everywhere.



Conclusion:
On every single point above, you have CLEARLY been imposing nothing but your own OPINIONS.

That's fine.
This is a very heated topic, about which people become very passionate.

Please just recognize what you did.
I expect you to have opinions.
You're a very logical guy, and a very intelligent guy,
but everything you stated above was opinion.

I know absolutely no one who respects Benny Hinn, And I have done many travels. and deal with alot of churches.

He gives christianity a bad name.

He may do some things which God uses. God can do that with anyone. But he does not have a very good reputation outside of his own denomination.

Unlike macarther, who is respected across many denominations. Not perfect. But respected.

 

[PeterJens]

They would talk about it, but only internally Not to the world. We are to go out into the world and serve. not just internally. It was also a bunch of hypocrites, they would not act the same in church as they would at home or in the world. Thats why I got out of it.

The victory over sin is loving others. that how you take focus off of self. and learn to live Christlike

Amen. To my house group I have put it like this, to be perfect is not to know you are perfect, because there is no point in knowing it is all in the doing and being. So in one sense you will never know you have arrived, because it is not about arriving, but being a loving caring individual powered by the love of Jesus.

Now I think we are brothers, in a very real sense. So please stop projecting other peoples lives on to me, and just take what I say simply. God bless you brother.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol. If I am stuck in anything it is stupid christians who do not know what a christian actually is. To put it mildly christians have started to read the bible, listen to Jesus's words and make a faith that fits them rather than applying it to their real lives.

And you think you have not done this? Again I grew up in your world. You make the same arguments I used to make. The same excuses. and the same reasons why people do things.

There was a good program about a theological college which trained pastors. One trainee pastor appeared well balanced, loving, kind etc. but after a time it became apparent everything they did had been learnt from others and nothing came from within, and they literally could not empathise properly because they did not know what they felt.

So many hear the words Jesus spoke, but it does not touch them, it is a dream they are trying on. In some cultures they call this skin deep christianity. Now this is what interests me, because I know what I am, what my words mean but they cause you great problems. Why is that?

Sounds like a baptist or reformed pastor who speaks christianize. I used to think it was a God like language, now I laugh at it. we wonder if they go through class to learn how to speak this way.

Not that there are not great leaders who talk this way. But it is just I think alot in the traditional churches are so focused on the things they have learned, so spoonfed as to what everyone else believes. That they may have some positives But they also have alot of negatives,

And they wonder why the churches are getting smaller.

I think you bought into the idea not we are sinners, but we are contaminated filth only worthy of death, with nothing of value. But you have overdone it. We do have value which is why Jesus died for us. Now the best way I can describe this value is we can love, from the heart, we can walk as Jesus walk, that there is real hope for regeneration.

then lets stop judging people. stop puffing ourselves up as to how good we are. and how bad the world is, and get out and love people Like jesus did. Like paul did. And we will see a revival like the would has not seen in years.

But unfortunately people are so afraid of breaking from tradition, tney are stuck in it. as they say, yu can;t teach an old dog new tricks.

Thinking you are filth is not the answer. nor is thinking you are so righteous, The answer is relishing the fact you are in Christ, and receiving the love of Christ, so you can love others.

Now do you realise I take Jesus at his word. He counts me worthy because of His death, that I can walk as He hoped. But the power of this walk is Jesus's love, shown eternally through the cross. Maybe this is a new gospel to you, maybe this is something you guessed at and missed, I do not know. This is the gospel of the Kingdom. I preach Christ crucified and that alone. Now it sounds like you are judging me, saying I am not worthy in Jesus, in showing his love, in living by his power and praise daily. But think about that. Not that I boast but that I know Jesus is my Lord.

Yuo do not get it.

I do not hear you say you are worthy because you are in jesus, I hear you say you are worthy because you do not look at porn. Do not sexualize women. do not do this or that.

And you wonder why I said you act like a pharisee.

You will never hear me boast of sins I do not do. That is not what the gospel is about. the gospel is about loving others, so they can come to the light.

As paul said, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, and not be a hypocrite. Thats how you act as a light.

There is an aesthetic ideal in christian tradition which says we must punish ourselves for sins or wrong attitudes or anger or any failure we think has occurred. But what if the reality is love has not remade these people, rewoven a response of love, where forgiveness and grace comes to the fore, because love has not been set free within. I am writing this not because I fully understand this reality, but I know I am different from where you are, and I know this is reality.

You are different, You are where I was 20 years ago. PS. I am not saying i need to punish myself for sin, that is rediculous.

So I just bow and praise My Lord, thankyou that you have changed me and given me streams of living water

I do also. I also ask jesus, who can I affect today? is there a brother who needs love, is there a sinner who needs grace. How can I serve my wife, my kids, my coworkers.

That is where our minds need to be. Not on ourselves/ God is able to take care of me. I do nto have to worry about me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen. To my house group I have put it like this, to be perfect is not to know you are perfect, because there is no point in knowing it is all in the doing and being. So in one sense you will never know you have arrived, because it is not about arriving, but being a loving caring individual powered by the love of Jesus.

Now I think we are brothers, in a very real sense. So please stop projecting other peoples lives on to me, and just take what I say simply. God bless you brother.

now if we just stuck to this. things would be so much better.

I grew up in that world and it almost destroyed me. And did destroy so many I knew and loved. That is why I am so passionate about it. I will fight it tooth and nail. And try t help a brother come out from that legalism that so ensares people.

 

[PeterJens]

Love is easy, when you allow Christ to love you. Maybe you have never experienced what it is like to love someone unconditionally

I have a wife, 3 children who I love unconditionally. What you remind me of is an old school friend. I had not met him for 10 years and we were talking about love. He had met a woman, who was married, but now divorced. She was not sure what to do, whether to start a relationship with my friend or go away. His attitude was he just wanted the best for her, and whatever she decided he was fine with that. I sat there understanding every word, knowing how love works, but he did not know I knew, and spoke to me as if it was so strange.

I know what you are talking about, but religion never interested me, it is love and Jesus that matter. But I am not talking about love in a small way, I am talking about who you are, how you exist, what it means to know every emotion in your soul. I am also not quite like you, I know the path to real maturity lies through many things, and distractions, so I appreciate many ways of expressing love to God, and the value of traditions and history etc.

So I wonder about this, why are you so suspicious? Why do you not want to accept I have a heart like yours? Have you been burnt by trusting others before?

 

[PeterJens]

You are where I was 20 years ago

I am sorry. You have made one big mistake. You think you know me. You do not. You are called to share love and encouragement to your brothers in the Lord, yet you want to for some reason try and understand where I am and what I am doing etc.

I have given up understanding others, I just share from my heart the blessing God has given me.
Please read what I am saying. I share from my heart the blessing God has given me.

For doing this you want to say I am a pharisee, a legalist, a religious hypocrite etc.
You need help, you need to stop trying to understand so much and just chill, rest in the Lord, know you are loved for who you are.

Imagine if people shared how blessed they felt because the sun came up this morning.
What is your honest response? If it is not empathy at the celebration of life and beauty there is something wrong.

 

[Angela53510]

I'm amazed again at what rhetoric and vindictive replies this post has generated. And this is not even a soteriological issue.

The Baptists are hurt, because they are condemned by the charismatics. The charismatics are hurt because the Reformed have condemned them. The Pentecostals are hurt because they have been lumped in with the charismatics. Benny Hinn is the devil! No, John MacArthur is the devil!

In all of this, I am not seeing the Bible posted, nor love for brothers and sisters. Can't we try to get along, regardless of our position on the gifts? Or regardless of various teachers only made popular by the media?

"And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the great and first commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Matt 22:37-39

"By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:25

By the way, as a Baptist, I have found living waters in my supposedly "dead" church! Jesus is wherever you look for him! I may no longer agree with Pentecostals and Charismatics, but I know that most love and serve Jesus, and that is the most important thing of all!

 

[Willie-T]

Just FYI. I attended Benny Hinn's church a few times, and also his conference meetings. I know it was 20 years ago, and from what I have seen of him on TV interviews today, he has certainly changed (But, so has Copeland). Twenty years ago, I admit I did not like the "showman Hinn", but at his own church, he was an entirely different man, and I actually liked him.

I guess it all finally got to him.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I just go by what the word says. Again I tried it your way, it did not work.

Scripture tells us how and makes it clear.

Rom 13:[SUP]8 [/SUP]Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

My way!?!?! Pardon me, but it is what the Bible says to do to overcome SIN.