Reformed vs Charismatic
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Kohelet,
I will make you a personal promise.
When I have the time to fully discuss and debate the charismatic movement,
I PROMISE I'll tar you with a special brush that's ONLY for you.
Come on, I thought that was pretty funny.
I will make you a personal promise.
When I have the time to fully discuss and debate the charismatic movement,
I PROMISE I'll tar you with a special brush that's ONLY for you.
Come on, I thought that was pretty funny.
It was pretty droll, maxwel, yes. I look forward to the special treatment.
HUH!?!?!?
I did not ask you if you want him to go to heaven. I asked, do you love him unconditionally despite himself.
Christ like love you so easily throw around would not have said anything that others stated, and would have simply said: YES! I love Benny Hinn despite himself. That is Jesus love right?
Christ like love seeks no return and no expectation of a return, it loves period, despite the good and the Bad and whatever anybody else says.
I did not ask you if you want him to go to heaven. I asked, do you love him unconditionally despite himself.
Christ like love you so easily throw around would not have said anything that others stated, and would have simply said: YES! I love Benny Hinn despite himself. That is Jesus love right?
Christ like love seeks no return and no expectation of a return, it loves period, despite the good and the Bad and whatever anybody else says.
The sad truth is people can go from honouring the Lord and waiting for action to manufacturing action, and manipulation of theology.
We are called brothers with Jesus. The apostles healed. Acts 3:6
Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”
It is a small conceptual step from saying we are brothers who can ask for Gods healing on another, to being actual creative power God speakers. This is what Benny Hinn and the NAR followers believe in latter rain heresy.
The problem is simple. If these teachers laid hands on someone, said "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." and a crippled person was healed and walked that is true authority. But in these meetings, prayer is made generally and healed people are asked to come forward.
The Lord can heal anyone, anywhere as an answer to prayer, but it does not give spiritual authority to the teaching of a preacher. If the preacher heals like Peter, then this is different.
So when we look at these men and women they are preaching heresy, and claiming authority equal to the apostles yet failing to demonstrate it. This would therefore catagorise them as false teachers.
You need to make this judgement because what they are claiming is such a different gospel, it changes the whole tenor of the faith, and claims a new revelation. The church has always maintained His people span throughout the ages, being born again and trusting in the cross for their salvation. There are many expressions of this, but only the Lord discerns the hearts that are transformed, and those which have the shadow of godliness. We are called not to judge peoples hearts, but to judge sound doctrine.
Titus 2:1-2
"You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance."
What these teachers are teaching is insane, deception, deluded and heretical. They are talking about dreams of visiting the 3rd heaven, and deriving spiritual insight and often changing their stories as they go along, taking precedence over normal relationships and scripture. A group like IHOP by prayer is trying to bring about the end times, and sucking people in to fanatical aspirations which end in emotional ruin. The healing crusades cause more disappointment than good, claiming to heal everyone if you have enough "faith", while condemning most to being unloved and uncared for. The reality is God will not heal everyone and all situations, but he will demonstrate real love through his people through good works, and occasionally miracles as He deems fit. You can try and invent a different God, but that is just delusion.
We are called brothers with Jesus. The apostles healed. Acts 3:6
Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”
It is a small conceptual step from saying we are brothers who can ask for Gods healing on another, to being actual creative power God speakers. This is what Benny Hinn and the NAR followers believe in latter rain heresy.
The problem is simple. If these teachers laid hands on someone, said "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." and a crippled person was healed and walked that is true authority. But in these meetings, prayer is made generally and healed people are asked to come forward.
The Lord can heal anyone, anywhere as an answer to prayer, but it does not give spiritual authority to the teaching of a preacher. If the preacher heals like Peter, then this is different.
So when we look at these men and women they are preaching heresy, and claiming authority equal to the apostles yet failing to demonstrate it. This would therefore catagorise them as false teachers.
You need to make this judgement because what they are claiming is such a different gospel, it changes the whole tenor of the faith, and claims a new revelation. The church has always maintained His people span throughout the ages, being born again and trusting in the cross for their salvation. There are many expressions of this, but only the Lord discerns the hearts that are transformed, and those which have the shadow of godliness. We are called not to judge peoples hearts, but to judge sound doctrine.
Titus 2:1-2
"You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance."
What these teachers are teaching is insane, deception, deluded and heretical. They are talking about dreams of visiting the 3rd heaven, and deriving spiritual insight and often changing their stories as they go along, taking precedence over normal relationships and scripture. A group like IHOP by prayer is trying to bring about the end times, and sucking people in to fanatical aspirations which end in emotional ruin. The healing crusades cause more disappointment than good, claiming to heal everyone if you have enough "faith", while condemning most to being unloved and uncared for. The reality is God will not heal everyone and all situations, but he will demonstrate real love through his people through good works, and occasionally miracles as He deems fit. You can try and invent a different God, but that is just delusion.
Pardon me, you do nothing to overcome SIN or just resist it. Jesus overcame Sin on our behalf and we re-enforce that victory every day. We do that by the renewing of the mind as the Bible states. As we mature in the word and in Christ, the fruit of the spirit manifest, and the big one is love. Love is also the most difficult thing to do, and those that suggest it is easy are either new to the love walk or are deceived.
Renewing your mind to follow the spirit is the hardest thing Christians will ever do and most of the times they never do because it is that most difficult and most easily misunderstood.
If you tried it and it did not work, then you are stating most of the NT is wrong. Furthermore, you keep placing the emphasis on yourself. I do nothing through me, I only do it through him, which includes loving people regardless of what they do to me or expectation of any kind of return from them.
Renewing your mind to follow the spirit is the hardest thing Christians will ever do and most of the times they never do because it is that most difficult and most easily misunderstood.
If you tried it and it did not work, then you are stating most of the NT is wrong. Furthermore, you keep placing the emphasis on yourself. I do nothing through me, I only do it through him, which includes loving people regardless of what they do to me or expectation of any kind of return from them.
E
Then why do you preach as to how well you overcome sin? You will have to forgive me, But as I have said earlier, all I see is you saying how you do not do this or that. Or how if you are tempted YOU resist.
Then when you are confronted. you make statements like this, which we would be in agreement on. Which is it. is it you overcoming, and resisting? or is it God working in your to love. Are you under law or grace?
1 Cor 13 [SUP]4 [/SUP]Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; [SUP]5 [/SUP]does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
This is love. Love is not saying how good i am, and how bad everyone else is, it does not judge, it suffers long, it is not puffed up.
I have rarely seen this from you in this thread. It is like you speak the walk, but you do not walk the walk.
You can not renew you mind, God has to renew your mind. Christian sanctification (maturity) comes the same way Christian justification came, by Faith in the work of Christ.
Paul makes it clear. we came to God in faith, if we try to perfect that life in Christ by the flesh (self effort) we are fools.
No. The NT is right. we are not matured by law. by rules and regulations and by tradition.
Abraham tried working through the flesh once, and Ishmael was the result. Paul tells us we will not mature in Christ that way, we will mature in Christ by TRUSTING GOD to work in us. It is by faith, not self effort. That again is why the law will never make us righteous.
Legalism is dangerous for two reasons.
1. If we think we are good (moral) we are deceived as to how good we really are, and puffed up in righteousness.
2. If we see the law for what it is, We see how BAD we are, and how we can not live up. and give up (I have seen so many fall into this area walk away from God because of legalistic teaching,
Faith understands, I am not blessed by what I do. But by what God did (my position in Christ That is the beginning of maturity
Then when you are confronted. you make statements like this, which we would be in agreement on. Which is it. is it you overcoming, and resisting? or is it God working in your to love. Are you under law or grace?
1 Cor 13 [SUP]4 [/SUP]Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; [SUP]5 [/SUP]does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
This is love. Love is not saying how good i am, and how bad everyone else is, it does not judge, it suffers long, it is not puffed up.
I have rarely seen this from you in this thread. It is like you speak the walk, but you do not walk the walk.
You can not renew you mind, God has to renew your mind. Christian sanctification (maturity) comes the same way Christian justification came, by Faith in the work of Christ.
Paul makes it clear. we came to God in faith, if we try to perfect that life in Christ by the flesh (self effort) we are fools.
No. The NT is right. we are not matured by law. by rules and regulations and by tradition.
Abraham tried working through the flesh once, and Ishmael was the result. Paul tells us we will not mature in Christ that way, we will mature in Christ by TRUSTING GOD to work in us. It is by faith, not self effort. That again is why the law will never make us righteous.
Legalism is dangerous for two reasons.
1. If we think we are good (moral) we are deceived as to how good we really are, and puffed up in righteousness.
2. If we see the law for what it is, We see how BAD we are, and how we can not live up. and give up (I have seen so many fall into this area walk away from God because of legalistic teaching,
Faith understands, I am not blessed by what I do. But by what God did (my position in Christ That is the beginning of maturity
E
Oh its there.
you both promotes stopping sin like it was his your own power (I resisted the temptation)
You promotes godliness as following rules, and not following God
You promotes legalism as he is not supporting a church that promotes pornography or exploiting women.
You all forget. I was you at one time. You act as if I do not see the language and know what I am talking about. I WAS YOU FOR OVER 30 YEARS!
Should we go back and look at your posts to see how you promote how one stops sin?
you both promotes stopping sin like it was his your own power (I resisted the temptation)
You promotes godliness as following rules, and not following God
You promotes legalism as he is not supporting a church that promotes pornography or exploiting women.
You all forget. I was you at one time. You act as if I do not see the language and know what I am talking about. I WAS YOU FOR OVER 30 YEARS!
Should we go back and look at your posts to see how you promote how one stops sin?
Good grief, you are a double for me. Please give me back my identity. (Joke) Now you have a strange personality, and after a few words written here by people expressing a summaried set of experiences you are the authority, and we are all legalists.
Our common thread is simple. The love Jesus puts in our hearts overcomes the motivations and impulses that lead to sin. Now to say this is exclusively over everything in our lives, from day one, would be absurd and not true, but that is what being transformed means.
Look through testimony after testimony of saved christians and this is their experience, love changing how they function and what they do. The love has a context, Jesus, the cross, his commandments, but the power is in the Holy Spirit expressed in the heart of a believer. No one is justifying themselves or claiming self effort, in fact the opposite.
So often the natural reaction when not taken to the Lord, can lead to sin, but when guided by the Spirit and laid at Jesus feet at the cross, ones heart changes. Now this is just an emotional reality for so many, it testifies to what it means to walk with Jesus.
But somehow you talk about laws, and justification, and condemnation etc. yet we talk about knowing we are not loving, and desiring to have a change of heart before sin has even occured. Sin is only an indication of a deeper problem, not walking in love.
So however you spin this, you want us to be your enemies and you the preacher of truth. Unless you have something different to say it is just gibberish.
Our common thread is simple. The love Jesus puts in our hearts overcomes the motivations and impulses that lead to sin. Now to say this is exclusively over everything in our lives, from day one, would be absurd and not true, but that is what being transformed means.
Look through testimony after testimony of saved christians and this is their experience, love changing how they function and what they do. The love has a context, Jesus, the cross, his commandments, but the power is in the Holy Spirit expressed in the heart of a believer. No one is justifying themselves or claiming self effort, in fact the opposite.
So often the natural reaction when not taken to the Lord, can lead to sin, but when guided by the Spirit and laid at Jesus feet at the cross, ones heart changes. Now this is just an emotional reality for so many, it testifies to what it means to walk with Jesus.
But somehow you talk about laws, and justification, and condemnation etc. yet we talk about knowing we are not loving, and desiring to have a change of heart before sin has even occured. Sin is only an indication of a deeper problem, not walking in love.
So however you spin this, you want us to be your enemies and you the preacher of truth. Unless you have something different to say it is just gibberish.
E
you need to read.
It was you people who came after me. I just questioned a few things you said. and asked why you were condemning someone when you did not understand what he believed (you still do not). it was you who got defensive and went to war, not me, I just followed your lead.
just more of the hypocrisy which comes from your system.
Again, You think I am blind. I was you once, I acted as you. I got defensive as you did whenever someone even questioned me. So I am not as yuo think I am.
It was you people who came after me. I just questioned a few things you said. and asked why you were condemning someone when you did not understand what he believed (you still do not). it was you who got defensive and went to war, not me, I just followed your lead.
just more of the hypocrisy which comes from your system.
Again, You think I am blind. I was you once, I acted as you. I got defensive as you did whenever someone even questioned me. So I am not as yuo think I am.
I give up. What I have written is very simple, it is testimony of peoples experiences, what we in common have found.
Somehow this to you is hypocrisy, so I doubt you understand what we are saying, so without common understanding of language and meaning it gets no where.
I wish you well, and hope you find you exclusive place of rest and peace with God, where ever you are.
Somehow this to you is hypocrisy, so I doubt you understand what we are saying, so without common understanding of language and meaning it gets no where.
I wish you well, and hope you find you exclusive place of rest and peace with God, where ever you are.