REFORMED?

[MarcR]

You certainly won't find that in Scripture. Any contrast with Israel is always either "Gentiles" or "nations". But the term "world" as used in the New Testament AS RELATED TO SALVATION means absolutely all of humanity. Since ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God, the offer of salvation is to ALL. Please note (as used in John 3:16):

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )):Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖοςκόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5;γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21;ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰςτόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15;

Now the real issue is "Why do Calvinists pervert the Scriptures to conform with their doctrines?"

Nehemiah,

I completely agreed with your post until tour last line. How is everything that disagrees with a perversion of Scripture?

We both agree that it is an error; but our fellow believers are equally persuaded we are in error.

Perversion carries a strong connotation of intent to do wrong. In most Calvinists I've met I don't find that to be the case.

Calvinists tend to passionately defend dispensationalism. I believe that divine election does NOT involve their definition of predestination; but I regard my belief as THIS MAN's OPINION; and I do NOT consider everyone who disagrees with me perverted.

 

[Laish]

Bill,

'The world' means six different things in different contexts. The whole world refers IMO to planet Earth.

Surely you believe that the Jewish people are and were residents of planet Earth.

Back at ya in a bit brother kids homework and laundry are Wednesday fair. Not skirting ya just juggling things an the internet is a is a distant third on that list .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Depleted]

Because of a recent conversation I thought it might be interesting to post this thread.

Based on my understanding [or perhaps misunderstanding] of Church history I have come to recognize 4 major doctrinal distinctives that differentiate the denominations founded on pre-Reformation teachings from those denominations founded on Reformation teachings.

I am not looking to offend anyone; I'm looking to confirm or correct my understanding [or lack thereof]!

1) Believer's baptism by immersion not required for Salvation
2) Eternal security of the believer
3) rejection of literal trans-substantiation
4) congregational government of the church

Those denominations founded on pre-Reformation teachings include but are not limited to:

The Christian Church, The Baptists, Christian Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free, Mennonite, In Faith, & Mission Covenant.

Are those four things the pre-reformer positions or the reformer one? Because the only one I see different in my reformed church is we're sometimes dippers instead of immersers.

 

[Depleted]

Is infamous a negative word? Sorry if it is, I was sincerely not aware of it and did not mean to put a negative connotation to it.

Yupper, a negative word.

 

[Depleted]

Yes, it is derogatory, and given your history of being anti-cal, well, what else would I gather from your post? You seriously didn't know "infamous" to be derogatory in nature? I find that quite difficult to believe bro.

Anti-Cal? Yippee! Does that mean I've met others who are anti-calculus too?

 

[UnderGrace]

pervert

alter (something) from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended.

It is not that the person is perverted, but that the meaning of scripture is perverted

I will fully admit I perverted many scriptures in the past, some unknowingly, some because of a lack understanding and mostly because of indoctrination of various teachers influenced by the doctrines of Calvin

So yes at that moment we do think we are right and the other in error, until God shows us otherwise as well as being shown by someone how I was preverting/ altering scripture to fit my neat little paradigm

Nehemiah,

I completely agreed with your post until tour last line. How is everything that disagrees with a perversion of Scripture?

We both agree that it is an error; but our fellow believers are equally persuaded we are in error.

Perversion carries a strong connotation of intent to do wrong. In most Calvinists I've met I don't find that to be the case.

Calvinists tend to passionately defend dispensationalism. I believe that divine election does NOT involve their definition of predestination; but I regard my belief as THIS MAN's OPINION; and I do NOT consider everyone who disagrees with me perverted.

 

[Depleted]

No, it is a lie. Several aspects of Calvinism are not true.


Obviously I do not agree.


Yes, he did.


No, I am not a Universalist. People must choose to believe.


Nope.


Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

A. It's not a lie.
B. That's not what this post is about. Plenty of space elsewhere to argue that yet again.

 

[MarcR]

Are those four things the pre-reformer positions or the reformer one? Because the only one I see different in my reformed church is we're sometimes dippers instead of immersers.

Lynn,

As mentioned earlier, the intent of this post is historical inquiry not a challenge of anyone's belief.

It appeared to me that many churches that refer to themselves as reformed actually have a pre-Reformation foundation that may not be recognized; and I was trying to confirm that I have a correct understanding of what reformed means; because in many instances I suspect it may be an unintentional misnomer.

 

[Depleted]

1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV

Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV


All sins of every person saved or unsaved were forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

The unsaved are those who reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus said " ye have not chosen me; but, I have chosen You." Soverign election! Jn 15:16

Jesus also said " whosoever will may come" man's freewill! Rv 22:17 my paraphrase.

How can these two statements from Jesus be simultaneously true?

I believe that God, in His divine sovereignty chooses on the basis of foreknowledge of who will willingly accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf.

Well, that is definitively not reformed. If you're looking on how your different than reformed, that's it.

 

[Laish]

You certainly won't find that in Scripture. Any contrast with Israel is always either "Gentiles" or "nations". But the term "world" as used in the New Testament AS RELATED TO SALVATION means absolutely all of humanity. Since ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God, the offer of salvation is to ALL. Please note (as used in John 3:16):

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )):Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖοςκόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5;γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21;ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰςτόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15;

Now the real issue is "Why do Calvinists pervert the Scriptures to conform with their doctrines?"

I will try to explain something for you brother. I hope you get what I mean . I am Reformed because of the way I view scripture.
I don't interpret scripture the way I do because I am Reformed. I have no agenda except to understand what God's Word .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have no agenda except to understand what God's Word .

Then perhaps you should understand from what was shown that "world" means the world of humanity, not merely the elect. And once you believe that, you will have no choice except to jettison Reformed Theology. When the Bible says that Christ died for the sins of the world, and that He is the propitiation for the sins of the world, then you must either believe what God has said and hold fast to it, or you can cling to your man-made Five Point Calvinism and be deceived.

Just because all men will not be saved through their own unbelief does not mean that God did not make full provision for their salvation. If every human being believed and obeyed the Gospel, all would be saved.

Please note very carefully these words of the Holy Spirit through Paul (1 Tim 2:3-6):

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Did Christ give Himself a ransom for all? Absolutely.

Is that not the reason why God will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth? Absolutely.

And is that not good and acceptable to God? Absolutely.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Nehemiah, I completely agreed with your post until your last line. How is everything that disagrees with a perversion of Scripture?

I was referring specifically to the meaning of "world" (which was incorrectly stated). I showed from Strong's that kosmos in the context of salvation means the whole world of humanity. But Calvinists persist in rejecting that meaning, and apply it to the elect. So if that is not a perversion of Scripture, what else is it? That is similar to the Bible declaring that Jesus is God and the JWs coming along and saying he is merely "a god" (John 1:1, New World Translation).

When you examine each of the five points of Calvinism, they produce "another Gospel". But this is not the thread to discuss that, and in any event it would not make a whit of difference to those who have committed themselves to Reformed Theology.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Wow, never saw that verse before. Poor folks suffering double jeopardy for their sins, what a shame.

Plus, we get John 3:16 thrown up in our faces, too, in the Cal v. Armin debates.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sir MarcR an I are having a civil discussion. Would you please refrain from your derogatory remarks. I have not insulted you or your beliefs.
Blessings
Bill

***incoming Mission Impossible music***

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nehemiah,

I completely agreed with your post until tour last line. How is everything that disagrees with a perversion of Scripture?

We both agree that it is an error; but our fellow believers are equally persuaded we are in error.

Perversion carries a strong connotation of intent to do wrong. In most Calvinists I've met I don't find that to be the case.

Calvinists tend to passionately defend dispensationalism. I believe that divine election does NOT involve their definition of predestination; but I regard my belief as THIS MAN's OPINION; and I do NOT consider everyone who disagrees with me perverted.

Brother Marc,

Thank you so much for those kinds words. Now to the bashing...errr...exegeting of 1 John 2:2.

If Jesus was atoning everybody in the whole world whoever lived, then all would be saved. Let me explain. Look at the word 'propitiation', or 'atoning sacrifice' in the NIV. Propitiation means to appease, satiate, satisfy, placate, God's wrath. Now, if the Christ appeased, satiated, satisfied, placated, God's wrath for all whoever lived, then His wrath for all whoever lived would be appeased, satiated, satisfied, placated. IOW, on the day of judgment, seeing that God's wrath is no longer there, as it has been appeased, satiated, satisfied, placated, then no one goes to hell. There's literally no wrath for God to mete out.

The 'whole world' gets conflated into meaning 'everybody whoever lived', but that's not true. Those who died in their sins pre-cross, their sins were not atoned for.

It's like Billy Graham. Billy Graham is known all over the whole world, but not everybody whoever lived has heard anything about the man. Jesus' atoning sacrifice encompasses the whole earth, but not everybody in the whole earth has had their sins atoned, covered in the blood.

 

[PeterJens]

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only
for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

This is an interesting verse.
One way to interpret it is the universalist view that all sin is now cancelled.
Another way is John is saying there is no sin that has been commited that cannot
be atoned for by Christ if applied by faith.

So John is distinguishing between only the anointed, chosen have access to God through
Christ, but everyone who claims it. The guilt is held by the world because they reject
Christ.

This verse illustrates the problem with open ended statements that can be taken too
far which contradict other truths in Christ.

For some this aspect is not recognised.

 

[Bogadile]

Well that escalated quickly.

 

[MarcR]

Brother Marc,

Thank you so much for those kinds words. Now to the bashing...errr...exegeting of 1 John 2:2.

If Jesus was atoning everybody in the whole world whoever lived, then all would be saved. Let me explain. Look at the word 'propitiation', or 'atoning sacrifice' in the NIV. Propitiation means to appease, satiate, satisfy, placate, God's wrath. Now, if the Christ appeased, satiated, satisfied, placated, God's wrath for all whoever lived, then His wrath for all whoever lived would be appeased, satiated, satisfied, placated. IOW, on the day of judgment, seeing that God's wrath is no longer there, as it has been appeased, satiated, satisfied, placated, then no one goes to hell. There's literally no wrath for God to mete out.

The 'whole world' gets conflated into meaning 'everybody whoever lived', but that's not true. Those who died in their sins pre-cross, their sins were not atoned for.

It's like Billy Graham. Billy Graham is known all over the whole world, but not everybody whoever lived has heard anything about the man. Jesus' atoning sacrifice encompasses the whole earth, but not everybody in the whole earth has had their sins atoned, covered in the blood.

I see where we are talking at cross purposes.

1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV

Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV


All sins of every person saved or unsaved were forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

BUT, THAT FORGIVENESS DOES NOT EXTEND to the person who committed them unless or until the person who committed them acknowledges the Lordship (Ownership) of Jesus.


The unsaved are those who reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

 

[MarcR]

I was referring specifically to the meaning of "world" (which was incorrectly stated). I showed from Strong's that kosmos in the context of salvation means the whole world of humanity. But Calvinists persist in rejecting that meaning, and apply it to the elect. So if that is not a perversion of Scripture, what else is it? That is similar to the Bible declaring that Jesus is God and the JWs coming along and saying he is merely "a god" (John 1:1, New World Translation).

When you examine each of the five points of Calvinism, they produce "another Gospel". But this is not the thread to discuss that, and in any event it would not make a whit of difference to those who have committed themselves to Reformed Theology.

It is an honest disagreement on the definition of a word that has multiple definitions.

A perversion would of necessity involve an intent to deceive or twist a meaning to suit one's purposes.

I don't see that from them. I believe they hold their view in sincerity however wrong they may be.

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother MarcR, I realize I got snarky last evening with you. My apologies brother!

Now as to nehemiah6 I am still awaiting proof of your claim that Spurgeon preached or taught that other than the elect are saved, or however you put it. You need to be backing up your claim. I know for certain it's false, but am expecting;

1) You to take something out of context he stated (kind of how you do with Scripture) or;

2) Just avoid it altogether and make pretense that what you said is true when you know it isn't true.

3) Just more arguing, and offerings of unsubstantiated claims which the naïve will accept as being true when it is false.

Oh, and for the record, Paul expected none other to be saved, because none other than His chosen will be saved.

But this first: The duplicity of folks who are against biblical election is remarkable. You teach a person becomes elect when they choose God, which is false, mind you, then you teach that people other than the elect get saved which is also incorrect and false doctrine.

Hopefully you can see the sheer error and double standards you employ here: If the latter aren't elect, but believe in the same way, how does that, in your economy make them not elect since by choosing they then become elect? It doesn't, it is senseless and both teachings are fictitious.

Then you hold to yet another glaring error in that you teach "God looked down through time and chose those who He knew would choose Him."

See the error there as well? How are any "non-elect" in that group? There cannot be even any non-elect being saved in that teaching either, even though your entire premise is false.

Your hermeneutics and teachings are completely inconsistent, and have to be so in order to support your free will idol and doctrines against election and predestination, a teaching you are fearful of that is completely biblical. The fact remains that you are more secure in what you did, thinking you made the decision to elect yourself and choose God, than in the fact that God chose based upon nothing in us, and for nothing we would or would not do, but solely according to His purpose; note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; Romans 9:11; Romans 8:28 &c.

Anyhow, back to Paul, who expected none other than the elect to be saved:

Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything. Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.- 2 Timothy 2:7-10The fact remains, only those whom God has chosen will come to salvation, even though they are condemned and under His wrath &c John 3:17ff, Ephesians 2:3. This is why we preach the Gospel because God has His sheep out there fo whom He elected prior to the foundation of the world, Acts 18:10 ; John 11:51-52.