REFORMED?

[preacher4truth]

I sincerely did not know that. I have heard people use it to describe anything widely known so that is how I meant to use it. I am not so much anti-cal as I am anti L in the TULIP, that is my biggest issue, but that is not the topic here so there is that.
Again sorry I did not know it.

English is not my native language

I believe you bro.

 

[1ofthem]

I heard the Gospel, and realized I believed it, and in what Christ has done for me. Then I realized I was forgiven all my wicked sin and was born again.

Awesome, that's pretty much the same way it happened for me...but I'll add this one point, I also wanted to share it with everyone and became extremely happy knowing that anyone who chose to believe and accept Jesus would be forgiven, as well.

 

[dcontroversal]

I hear what you are saying bro, but the fact remains, their sins have already been paid for, according to what you are teaching, specifically those who do not believe. It all sounds OK until we look at it thoroughly and via the character of God: A just God would not make a person pay a debt in eternal hell which has already been paid for. In fact a just God can not do that.

I hear what your saying as well migo....I just cannot step over the statement-->the sins of the whole world and is why I used the words preemptive.....the debt has been paid already, but is only applied if one exercises faith into said sacrifice....

I know this is a gross example but is weakly compared to a life insurance policy......the policy is paid for and in force, but only applied at death......

The blood of Christ is in force, the debt has been paid, but is only applied at faith......

Right or wrong that is how I balance it in my mind when it comes to this particular discussion......

In a way the Passover kind of proves this.....the order was given, the promise to pass over in force, but was only applied if the blood was struck.....any and all who struck the blood would be passed over.....those who did not strike the blood were affected by the death of the firstborn.......

 

[Enow]

I see where we are talking at cross purposes.

1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV

Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV


All sins of every person saved or unsaved were forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

BUT, THAT FORGIVENESS DOES NOT EXTEND to the person who committed them unless or until the person who committed them acknowledges the Lordship (Ownership) of Jesus.


The unsaved are those who reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Not sure about this portion of the quote below.

"BUT, THAT FORGIVENESS DOES NOT EXTEND to the person who committed them....unless or until the person who committed them acknowledges the Lordship (Ownership) of Jesus."

Not every saved believer that accepts Jesus's sacrifice on the cross acknowledges the Lordship as in Ownership of Jesus for which is why Paul reminds saved believers of this truth.... even though they were still saved as in still His.

1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]17 [/SUP]But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. [SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? [SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

I am not sure why you didn't lead with...."BUT, THAT FORGIVENESS DOES NOT EXTEND to the person who committed them unless they accepted Jesus's sacrifice on the cross..... "

.....since you pointed out that the unsaved were identified as rejecting Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.

I do wonder though if every saved believer coming to Jesus acknowledges that sacrifice for themselves though since Romans 10th chapter speaks of salvation for those that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. There is no mention of the necessity of acknowledging His sacrifice on the cross for them or ownership, but believing that Jesus is God and that God raised Him from the dead and believing in that, they are saved.

Then you have John 1:12-13 that testified that even those who just believe in His name are saved.

I am sure that in some gospel presentation in Acts, the sacrifice on the cross was mentioned as "the preaching of the cross" was mentioned in the letter to the church at Corinth....but I do wonder how much of the gospel is preached to sinners before they had believed in His name?

John 1:[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5:[SUP]11 [/SUP]And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Albeit, His disciples should teach new believers more about Him so that their love may grow more and more in the knowledge of Him so that their joy may be full.[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[notuptome]

I hear what you are saying bro, but the fact remains, their sins have already been paid for, according to what you are teaching, specifically those who do not believe. It all sounds OK until we look at it thoroughly and via the character of God: A just God would not make a person pay a debt in eternal hell which has already been paid for. In fact a just God can not do that.

Perhaps but a God of grace is able to do just that. Satisfy His demand for justice and show forth mercy at the same time. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I used to believe that it was of free will, of choosing until I realized no one is free, and none can come to God unless He draws them. We are unable. All that are drawn are saved. But God made me willing in the day of His power; Psalm 110:3. It is not unlike God to cause us to will for Him; Philippians 2:13. He causes us to walk in His ways; Ezekiel 36:27; He also causes (makes) us to lie down in green pastures; Psalm 23:2. We are rebellious to God, He does all the good in us.

And yet Christ is the Light that ligheth every man that comes into the world.

Many are called yet few are chosen. It is the unwillingness of evil men that permits them to remain lost and on their way to eternal condemnation. They trod under foot the blood of the Lamb of God counting it to be of no value.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The issue here is that pervert is a hot word that has an inherently offensive character.

mistake is a neutral word that invites discussion.

If you want a good resource that is well written on the subject get a copy of the book "The Other Side of Calvinism" by Laurence M Vance. Vance publications. ISBN 0-9628898-7-3 Almost 800 pages with documentation. Worthy of study.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[MarcR]

Not sure about this portion of the quote below.

"BUT, THAT FORGIVENESS DOES NOT EXTEND to the person who committed them....unless or until the person who committed them acknowledges the Lordship (Ownership) of Jesus."

Not every saved believer that accepts Jesus's sacrifice on the cross acknowledges the Lordship as in Ownership of Jesus for which is why Paul reminds saved believers of this truth.... even though they were still saved as in still His.

1 Corinthians 6:[SUP]17 [/SUP]But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. [SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? [SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

I am not sure why you didn't lead with...."BUT, THAT FORGIVENESS DOES NOT EXTEND to the person who committed them unless they accepted Jesus's sacrifice on the cross..... "

.....since you pointed out that the unsaved were identified as rejecting Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.

I do wonder though if every saved believer coming to Jesus acknowledges that sacrifice for themselves though since Romans 10th chapter speaks of salvation for those that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. There is no mention of the necessity of acknowledging His sacrifice on the cross for them or ownership, but believing that Jesus is God and that God raised Him from the dead and believing in that, they are saved.

Then you have John 1:12-13 that testified that even those who just believe in His name are saved.

I am sure that in some gospel presentation in Acts, the sacrifice on the cross was mentioned as "the preaching of the cross" was mentioned in the letter to the church at Corinth....but I do wonder how much of the gospel is preached to sinners before they had believed in His name?

John 1:[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5:[SUP]11 [/SUP]And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Albeit, His disciples should teach new believers more about Him so that their love may grow more and more in the knowledge of Him so that their joy may be full.

Enow,

I do not believe that ANYTHING I say carries the Authority of God's Word!!! I can only post my own beliefs and understandings.

I don't expect total agreement with every word I speak.

From a purely lexical point of view, the word Lord means owner; as clearly seen in the word Landlord.

I believe that accepting Jesus as LORD involves acknowledging His right of ownership both as creator and as redeemer.

I do not view myself as having the right to compel anyone to agree with me, or to speculate on the consequence of disagreement.

I know that there will be many people who believe themselves to be saved and are mistaken.

I don't know who they are or why they are; but I suspect that rejecting Jesus right of ownership may be involved.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

In p4t most believers are probably not saved, so he feels like he is among enemies.
If you use open questioning language, that is a sure sign for him, you are possessed
and evil, lol. In the world of these guys, once labelled you might as well accept you
should be put against the wall and shot.

My first encounter was a full verbal assault followed by any accusation he could invent,
so expect nothing less. But once you know the nature of the individual, gauntlets work
very well, as they protect the heart and the hands.

I had to pick up a frightened young hedge hog, they really saved the day for both
parties.

hedgehogs are so cute

 

[Muzungu256]

i think the issue u see on this topic is that reformed say that Christ and His blood did save people already, He really did save them. but the un-reformed say that Christ's work on the cross only made salvation possible to those who believe. so He died for all but the blood wont be applied before u got faith u see.

 

[preacher4truth]

I hear what your saying as well migo....I just cannot step over the statement-->the sins of the whole world and is why I used the words preemptive.....the debt has been paid already, but is only applied if one exercises faith into said sacrifice....

If a debt is paid, it is paid regardless of what a person does. IOW, the debt has been paid. If a debt is paid, then for whom it was paid they owe nothing and are no longer in debt. Then we have people going to hell to pay a debt that has been paid in full. God is just, not unjust bro. It is paid for in full even if they don't believe.

The fact is Jesus paid for His peoples sins.

As far as faith, it isn't what clinches salvation, it isn't the cause, it is the evidence of conversion and comes from God. No person has ever "exercised" their faith unto salvation. That would be a work, and more importantly it isn't biblical.

Believe it or not, the above teachings are what has brought about Universalism because they at the least follow out their belief on that Scripture to its logical end.

But I digress bro, hope you're doing well!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Sorry to any of y'all who want to exclude people and leave people out for whatever reason, but I'm pretty sure scripture makes it clear that he did die for all...However, it is up to each and everyone to believe and accept it or not. He took the sins of the whole world upon him, and atoned for all. He paid the price but we have to accept it or not. He does not make anyone accept it and he does not turn any away...

[SUP]2 Corinthians 5[/SUP]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

I can see how calvinism might give some people the idea they can never be saved

if a person has guilt or shame or is clinically depressed, they will not 'feel' saved and can assume they are therefore not saved

salvation is not about feelings, but a person who is told they have no choice etc, can very easily begin to think that Gods lot for them in life is for them to be miserable

I've known people like that and it can be difficult enough for them, without someone telling them God has put them on the dump because they are not 'chosen'

the more I learn about calvinism, the more I reject it. it is NOT God's plan for salvation

further, it is my understanding, that because I reject a method or interpretation of SOMEONE ELSES' faith, I cannot be saved

God help everyone if that were true

 

[IamWhoIam]

Perhaps but a God of grace is able to do just that. Satisfy His demand for justice and show forth mercy at the same time. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


And yet Christ is the Light that ligheth every man that comes into the world.

Many are called yet few are chosen. It is the unwillingness of evil men that permits them to remain lost and on their way to eternal condemnation. They trod under foot the blood of the Lamb of God counting it to be of no value.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well i think (preacher4truth) was trying to say this, the goodness of God is so connected with his Godhead that it is not more necessary to be God than to be good; whereas the devil, by his fall, was so estranged from goodness that he can do nothing but evil. should anyone give utterance to the profane jeer that little praise is due to God for a goodness to which he is forced, is it not obvious to everyman to reply, "it is owing not to violent impulse, but to his boundless goodness, that he cannot do evil"?
therefore, if the free will of God in doing good is not impeded, because he necessarily must do good; if the devil, who can do nothing but evil; nevertheless sins voluntarily; can it be said that man sins less voluntarily because is under a necessity of sinning?

 

[PeterJens]

hedgehogs are so cute

The truth is so are people to when they submit to Christ.
It is sin and defence within us that distorts and makes us impossible

 

[MarcR]

I am re-posting this as I didn't get to edit it at the end and it was jumbled together:


Brother MarcR, I realize I got snarky last evening with you. My apologies brother!

Now as to nehemiah6 I am still awaiting proof of your claim that Spurgeon preached or taught that other than the elect are saved, or however you put it. You need to be backing up your claim. I know for certain it's false, but am expecting;

1) You to take something out of context he stated (kind of how you do with Scripture) or;

2) Just avoid it altogether and make pretense that what you said is true when you know it isn't true.

3) Just more arguing, and offerings of unsubstantiated claims which the naïve will accept as being true when it is false.

Oh, and for the record, Paul expected none other to be saved, because none other than His chosen will be saved.

But this first: The duplicity of folks who are against biblical election is remarkable. You teach a person becomes elect when they choose God, which is false, mind you, then you teach that people other than the elect get saved which is also incorrect and false doctrine.

Hopefully you can see the sheer error and double standards you employ here: If the latter aren't elect, but believe in the same way, how does that, in your economy make them not elect since by choosing they then become elect? It doesn't, it is senseless and both teachings are fictitious.

Then you hold to yet another glaring error in that you teach "God looked down through time and chose those who He knew would choose Him."

See the error there as well? How are any "non-elect" in that group? There cannot be even any non-elect being saved in that teaching either, even though your entire premise is false.

Your hermeneutics and teachings are completely inconsistent, and have to be so in order to support your free will idol and doctrines against election and predestination, a teaching you are fearful of that is completely biblical. The fact remains that you are more secure in what you did, thinking you made the decision to elect yourself and choose God, than in the fact that God chose based upon nothing in us, and for nothing we would or would not do, but solely according to His purpose; note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; Romans 9:11; Romans 8:28 &c.

Anyhow, back to Paul, who expected none other than the elect to be saved:

Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything. Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.- 2 Timothy 2:7-10.

The fact remains, only those whom God has chosen will come to salvation, even though they are condemned and under His wrath prior to experiencing conversion; John 3:17ff, Ephesians 2:3&c. This is why we preach the Gospel because God has His sheep out there whom He elected prior to the foundation of the world, Acts 18:10; John 11:51-52; Ephesians 1; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

NO OFFENCE TAKEN as evidenced by my subsequent posts.

 

[1ofthem]

Any doctrine that casts fear and doubt toward others leading some to believe that accepting the blood of Jesus and faith in him alone is not enough to be saved, and that he did not invite all to come unto him, plainly is wrong. In my opinion, it’s the same as casting a stumbling block in your brother’s way.

So if anyone wants to judge then judge this:
Romans 14
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Revelations 21:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[1ofthem]

I can see how calvinism might give some people the idea they can never be saved

if a person has guilt or shame or is clinically depressed, they will not 'feel' saved and can assume they are therefore not saved

salvation is not about feelings, but a person who is told they have no choice etc, can very easily begin to think that Gods lot for them in life is for them to be miserable

I've known people like that and it can be difficult enough for them, without someone telling them God has put them on the dump because they are not 'chosen'

the more I learn about calvinism, the more I reject it. it is NOT God's plan for salvation

further, it is my understanding, that because I reject a method or interpretation of SOMEONE ELSES' faith, I cannot be saved

God help everyone if that were true

Amen sister that is exactly my thoughts on it...I think it is as dangerous as a cocked cannon...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Amen sister that is exactly my thoughts on it...I think it is as dangerous as a cocked cannon...

with a short fuse apparently...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The truth is so are people to when they submit to Christ.
It is sin and defence within us that distorts and makes us impossible

Calvinism sounds more like some sort of safety net wherein you don't have to worry (not saying Christians are to worry because the Bible tells us otherwise but just using an expression) because you are predestined and your future is secure

we are secure in Christ...but the Bible DOES say 'whosoever will' but they interpret that as only those who God says can come with the bonus feature that you literally HAVE NO CHOICE...like a robot

it's mind boggling they do not see the contradiction there

maybe we are looking at hyper-Calvinism here...I don't know. I guess there are variations within that denom as with everything else

 

[notmyown]

Any doctrine that casts fear and doubt toward others leading some to believe that accepting the blood of Jesus and faith in him alone is not enough to be saved, and that he did not invite all to come unto him, plainly is wrong. In my opinion, it’s the same as casting a stumbling block in your brother’s way.

So if anyone wants to judge then judge this:
Romans 14
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Revelations 21:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

er, not to argue, but to assure you, i number among the Reformed, and attend a Reformed church, but have never known anyone who does this.

we are fully aware most of us weren't familiar with Reformed doctrine when God saved us.

 

[PeterJens]

Calvinism sounds more like some sort of safety net wherein you don't have to worry (not saying Christians are to worry because the Bible tells us otherwise but just using an expression) because you are predestined and your future is secure

we are secure in Christ...but the Bible DOES say 'whosoever will' but they interpret that as only those who God says can come with the bonus feature that you literally HAVE NO CHOICE...like a robot

it's mind boggling they do not see the contradiction there

maybe we are looking at hyper-Calvinism here...I don't know. I guess there are variations within that denom as with everything else

I have to be honest here. Some ideas and convictions can come upon you, and you are certain
they explain everything. It can become like struggling in the dark and then everything falls into
place. The problem is the difference between being confused and then finding one perspective
is progress, but not necessarily the answer to everything.

Many take this reassurance and bunker down, and it becomes their badge of identity.
My approach is actually to go through these experiences and then build out and test the
different aspects. What you find is they are part of the whole, but not as distinct as some
would like, and becoming dogmatic can be as dangerous as not believing at all.

It is why some christians can become very bitter, sharp people, because one way of looking
at standards is as a weapon to beat people with, rather than a definition of safety and help.

An eye for an eye was a great improvement on you hurt me and I will kill you.