Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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God does not give you, or anyone else any signs and wonders to authenticate our message

You claim he still does but you are unable to perform them

That speaks louder than anything else
That's a strawman argument. When did anyone perform signs and wonders on someone else's beckon call?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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That's a strawman argument. When did anyone perform signs and wonders on someone else's beckon call?
Again, read Exodus 4. God gave Moses 3 signs, and Moses demonstrated that to the Jews at the end of the chapter.

There is no point telling anyone you believe signs and wonders are valid today, and yet are unable to perform them.

The burden of proof is on the person who is demonstrating them, the rest of us don't need to prove you don't have them.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Again, read Exodus 4. God gave Moses 3 signs, and Moses demonstrated that to the Jews at the end of the chapter.

There is no point telling anyone you believe signs and wonders are valid today, and yet are unable to perform them.

The burden of proof is on the person who is demonstrating them, the rest of us don't need to prove you don't have them.
More correctly, the burden of proof rests on the person making the initial claim, whether for or against.

As to your example, Moses was not performing signs as a Christian gifted with the power of the Holy Spirit. Apples and oranges.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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More correctly, the burden of proof rests on the person making the initial claim, whether for or against.

As to your example, Moses was not performing signs as a Christian gifted with the power of the Holy Spirit. Apples and oranges.
Are you mixing up signs and wonders with the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Are you mixing up signs and wonders with the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Yes we must be careful how we hear the understanding of God.

I think it has to do with not having a proper understanding as to what a "sign and wonder" is. A sign the thing seen is not a wonder. And neither a wonder a sign. A sign is the things seen. A wonder causes one to look for a fulfillment like a source of faith . God uses prophecy as the exclusive source of faith .

Signs are for those who believe not prophecy the tongue God speaks through in all the nations of the world.

A sign on a trip that the children are getting impatient over and over . . I wonder how much further than 8 minutes later I wonder. . . . . . ..Jesus said marvel or wonder not but believe serve voice of the new master the Lord Jesus.

An evil faithless generation seeks after the the things seen . The last sign as a wonder was that of Jonas and the Son of man .Companion parables.

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Are you mixing up signs and wonders with the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
No. The working of miracles is one of the gifts. The working of any of the gifts may be generally called "signs and wonders".
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I think it has to do with not having a proper understanding as to what a "sign and wonder" is.
You said it yourself.

A sign the thing seen is not a wonder. And neither a wonder a sign. A sign is the things seen. A wonder causes one to look for a fulfillment like a source of faith . God uses prophecy as the exclusive source of faith .
Where is all this in Scripture?

Signs are for those who believe not prophecy the tongue God speaks through in all the nations of the world.
That is not consistent with Scripture, as I have told you, explained to you, and demonstrated from Scripture. Why do you keep posting contrabiblical statements?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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No. The working of miracles is one of the gifts. The working of any of the gifts may be generally called "signs and wonders".
I see, you define it differently from me then.
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
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God does not give you, or anyone else any signs and wonders to authenticate our message

You claim he still does but you are unable to perform them

That speaks louder than anything else
Scripture seems to be speaking the loudest. It is God who heals.

Acts 4:29-30 (TLV)
“And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant Your servants to speak Your word with utmost courage—while You stretch out Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy Servant Yeshua.”
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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Scripture seems to be speaking the loudest. It is God who heals.

Acts 4:29-30 (TLV)
“And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant Your servants to speak Your word with utmost courage—while You stretch out Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy Servant Yeshua.”
Yes, as I have stated many times in this thread, signs and wonders are an essential feature of the gospel of the Kingdom, Israel was being preached the good news that the Kingdom is at hand. That is the context of Acts 4.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Well, here you have it, folks.

Word of Faith preacher Kenneth Copeland claims that he has destroyed Covid19.

This is why I cannot take charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith people seriously.

These groups co-mingle, so please don't take me to task for generalizing.

And, if you do take me to task, do you agree that Kenneth Copeland is a false teacher? Because, from my experience, most from this subculture will not condemn the teachings of people like him.

 

Washed

Active member
Mar 27, 2020
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Well, here you have it, folks.

Word of Faith preacher Kenneth Copeland claims that he has destroyed Covid19.
He didn't.

This is why I cannot take charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith people seriously.

These groups co-mingle, so please don't take me to task for generalizing.
Since the phrase in red is false, you are generalizing.

And, if you do take me to task, do you agree that Kenneth Copeland is a false teacher? Because, from my experience, most from this subculture will not condemn the teachings of people like him.
Yes, he is a false teacher.

You need more experience.

You may classify me as charismatic, but I am neither Pentecostal or Word of Faith. You need more buckets to put people in...
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Well, here you have it, folks.

Word of Faith preacher Kenneth Copeland claims that he has destroyed Covid19.

This is why I cannot take charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith people seriously.

These groups co-mingle, so please don't take me to task for generalizing.

And, if you do take me to task, do you agree that Kenneth Copeland is a false teacher? Because, from my experience, most from this subculture will not condemn the teachings of people like him.
you just cannot get off that dead horse. behold...it stinketh already

your average post in these forums amounts to what is called argumentum ad nauseam or, arguing the same thing until people want to barf

it has been said many times in this forum that most people do NOT go along with these charlatans yet you cannot stop posting these videos

like a dog with a bone
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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He didn't.


Since the phrase in red is false, you are generalizing.


Yes, he is a false teacher.

You need more experience.

You may classify me as charismatic, but I am neither Pentecostal or Word of Faith. You need more buckets to put people in...
They comingle. You will hear people who claim the various theologies accepting parts or all of the other theologies.

If you are conscious enough to discern.
 

Washed

Active member
Mar 27, 2020
105
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They comingle. You will hear people who claim the various theologies accepting parts or all of the other theologies.

If you are conscious enough to discern.
You accept parts of Catholicism. Does that mean you co-mingle with Catholicism? Does that make you a Catholic?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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You accept parts of Catholicism. Does that mean you co-mingle with Catholicism? Does that make you a Catholic?
If I believed in purgatory, Mariology, praying to saints, and the primacy of the Pope, but rejected minor points, the differences would be indistinguishable, and evangelicals would be perfectly entitled to point out the similarities between me and Roman Catholics. This is much the case with Word of Faith, Pentecostals, and charismatics.

I don't know how many charismatics or Pentecostals told me, ultimately, that they think that the faith of the person is a big factor in whether they are healed, or if you don't have financial prosperity, you aren't pleasing God in your life.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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The Pentecostal understanding of this verse is far from correct. It does not say all knowledge. It is speaking to the knowledge given to the apostles to declare Christ from the OT scriptures. They did not have the complete NT when this passage was written. Paul is speaking to the completion of the NT scriptures. verse 12
Your position is irrational, and I will tell you why. First of all, Paul does not say he is talking about the knowledge of the completed New Testament. He contrasts knowing in part with knowing as he is known. There is no talk of the completed writings of the New Testament.

What is irrational about your position is that you are so convinced about it, even though the details about your position are not in the passage, and your own position runs contrary to having some sort of spiritual revelation to fill in the gaps. If you said the Lord spoke to you in a burning bush and told you that the knowledge being spoken of here is the completed New Testament scriptures... it is not that we would believe you... but at least you would be claiming some sort of revelation that your interpretation were true. You have to guess that your position is right since it cannot be proven from the text that 'know as I am known' means having the completed New Testament scriptures.

But the problem with your interpretation is that it does not fit with the overall message or theme of the epistle. Paul already wrote in chapter 1 of his readers being inriched in all utterance and all knowledge, "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: " (I Corinthians 5,7, quote from v. 7.) Paul already gives us a time point to look forward to, here.

And we see the themes in chapter 13 and the two chapters that follow.

Chapter 13 Chapter 14 Chapter 15
tongues and prophecy tongues and prophecy
the coming of that which is perfect the state of the believer in the resurrection
at the coming of Christ.


Put away the childish things and grow in grace. Man up and trust Gods word to accomplish all that God has determined is should do. What we have here is a simple matter of unbelief. Refusal to believe Gods word and to trust wholly in Him.
Paul wrote about himself 'when I was a child, I spake as a child.' The coming of the perfect will make Paul the apostle like a man. This was something he had not yet experienced. But he did have the knowledge of scripture. In Ephesians 3:4 he writes“Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)”.

You do not have such far superior understanding of Paul's writings that his understanding was that of a child's in comparison to yours. You are not in a superior position to that of the apostles.

Paul associates perfection with his own resurrection in the book of Philippians.

Most Pentecostals do not believe that God can and will save souls apart from miracles and wonders.
That is a really ignorant statement, and quite false in my experience--unless you are speaking of faith in the resurrection of Christ, which is a great miracle.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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You said it yourself.


Where is all this in Scripture?


That is not consistent with Scripture, as I have told you, explained to you, and demonstrated from Scripture. Why do you keep posting contrabiblical statements?
Contrabiblical statements like making it in as it is written to no effect? Sounds like the spirit of the anitchrist (another teaching authority ) . Yet for all that they still refuse to hear but rather continue to mock the authority of God's word, make a baby sound and falling backward mocking the law which is revisited in 1 Corinthian 14. You keep saying I offer contrabiblical statements but offer no biblical statements that could support your opinion ?

God demonstrates in scripture those who make a noise like a baby and fall backward mocking God. Yet for all that they still refuse to get under the authority of all things written in the law and the prophets. Called prophecy the tongue of God.

Staying away from the foundation of the doctrine does not make it disappear forever. It a law not subject to change after the philosophies of men,.

The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”


So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is
a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”

But
they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”


When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isaiah 28: 9-13

Why support and not warn those who do fall back making a noise . Its the sign they are mocking. (stammering lips.

Prophecy, the gospel in other languages for those who do no go above sola scriptura and invent other ways to self edify oneself with many wonderment's .

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinitians 14: 20 -22

What is our responsibility to those who mock God by making a noise and falling backward . Support that sign that reveals they reject the authority of as it is written?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Contrabiblical statements like making it in as it is written to no effect?
No; contrabiblical statements like, "Signs are for those who believe not prophecy." That's your statement, in case you forgot.
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
242
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Yes, as I have stated many times in this thread, signs and wonders are an essential feature of the gospel of the Kingdom, Israel was being preached the good news that the Kingdom is at hand. That is the context of Acts 4.
It is an essential feature of the gospel, to the Jew first and then the Gentile.

Romans 15:17-19
So in Messiah Yeshua, I have reason to boast before God. For I will not dare to speak of anything except what Messiah accomplished through me, to bring about the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem and around even to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the Good News of Messiah.