Rev 17, Who is the Woman? Jerusalem Vs Rome

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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
#41
hmm, there is no woman riding the beast in Daniel, hmm,theres no mention of an 8th till Revelation 17,,,he must have shown him a mystery...
Oh, you mean like a revelation? ha ha.

It seems like the beasts are described from different viewpoints and more details as time progresses.

In Dan. 2, the iron is seen as a nation that rules over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem. Dividing and deteriorating until the end when the power is ended.

In Dan. 7, the beast is seen in relation to the resurrections and the kingdom, in more detail in some parts.

In Rev 12, the beast is seen with the dragon Spirit in relation to the coming of Jesus, the kingdom, and the times of the gentiles.

Rev 13, is showing the rise of Rome the gentile empire and Rome the religious empire.

Rev 17, shows Rome in it's different phases until the end, perdition, 2nd death.

All these are telling the same story, adding details to the description of the Roman beast.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,696
117
63
#42
Definitely not Jerusalem....


Rev 17:4: "The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls"

(The color for bishops and other prelates is purple, for cardinals scarlet... the prectoral cross should be made of gold and decorated with gems" (Our Sunday visitor's Catholic encyclopedia, 1991)


Jerusalem does not fit because there were 4 colors given by God, to be worn by the priests in Israel - gold, blue, purple and scarlet (Exodus 28). This color blue is not mentioned in Rev 17:4, therefore it cannot be Jerusalem.

Numbers 15:37-40: Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners. And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God"
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
2,850
155
63
#43
Rev 17, Who is the Woman? Jerusalem Vs Rome.


There are many good scriptural reasons to see things both ways, in my opinion.

I think that it is Rome. The woman sits on, is, the city of the seven hills/mountains which are the seven heads of the beast Roman Empire Rev 17:9, 18.

The woman was in the wilderness v 3. Jerusalem is not in the wilderness of the gentile nations.

======

Why do you think that it is Jerusalem?

Why do you think that it is Rome?
Why not both? The whore sits on many waters.. Meaning she is Global..

Revelation 17: KJV
15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
6,970
258
83
#44
Why not both? The whore sits on many waters.. Meaning she is Global..

Revelation 17: KJV
15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
Hello Adstar,

Since the woman is said to be that city that sits on seven hills, I believe that this is referring to the woman's headquarters. The reference then to her sitting on many waters would mean that she has a world-wide influence over other peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
171
0
#45
All these things that you have mentioned must align with the statue in Daniel 2. The statue shows no gaps.

If we understand the woman as the false religion of Caesar worship in the RCC, then the iron legs/toes are a continual nation.
The feet of iron mixed with clay were cracked and crumbled hence there were gaps.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
6,970
258
83
#46
All these things that you have mentioned must align with the statue in Daniel 2. The statue shows no gaps.

If we understand the woman as the false religion of Caesar worship in the RCC, then the iron legs/toes are a continual nation.
Actually, it does show a gap abcdef. The previous ruling kingdom (Rome) is represented by legs made of all iron. Where the coming ten-toed kingdom is an extension or revived kingdom, mixed with iron and partly baked clay. We are told right in the scripture that the iron and clay represents a mixture of people and will therefore not have the same strength that it did when it was all iron.
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
13,419
316
83
25
#47
Rev 17, Who is the Woman? Jerusalem Vs Rome.


There are many good scriptural reasons to see things both ways, in my opinion.

I think that it is Rome. The woman sits on, is, the city of the seven hills/mountains which are the seven heads of the beast Roman Empire Rev 17:9, 18.

The woman was in the wilderness v 3. Jerusalem is not in the wilderness of the gentile nations.

======

Why do you think that it is Jerusalem?

Why do you think that it is Rome?
1 "major problem" the woman in the wilderness in Chp.12 and the woman mentioned in Chp.17 of Revelation are not the "same woman" and one more problem the woman in the wilderness in Chp.12 is spoken of in a "literal sense" as in she was an "Actual woman" the woman spoken of in Chp.17 is spoken of in a "metaphoric sense" as in she was not an "actual woman" speaking of a nation not "any 1 literal woman".
 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
6,970
258
83
#48
1 "major problem" the woman in the wilderness in Chp.12 and the woman mentioned in Chp.17 of Revelation are not the "same woman" and one more problem the woman in the wilderness in Chp.12 is spoken of in a "literal sense" as in she was an "Actual woman" the woman spoken of in Chp.17 is spoken of in a "metaphoric sense" as in she was not an "actual woman" speaking of a nation not "any 1 literal woman".
Hello Joefizz,

Actually, you are correct in that the woman of Rev.12 and 17 are two different women. However, the woman in Rev.12 is symbolic representing Israel. We know this because the woman in Rev.12 is said to be clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve starts. This alone would demonstrated that the woman is clothed with these symbols that it is figurative. And the use of these symbols is not by accident, for these same exact symbols are used elsewhere in scripture:

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = wife/wives

Eleven stars = Eleven of Jacob's son's, with Joseph being the twelfth star

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars represents the nation Israel.
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
13,419
316
83
25
#49


Hello Joefizz,

Actually, you are correct in that the woman of Rev.12 and 17 are two different women. However, the woman in Rev.12 is symbolic representing Israel. We know this because the woman in Rev.12 is said to be clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve starts. This alone would demonstrated that the woman is clothed with these symbols that it is figurative. And the use of these symbols is not by accident, for these same exact symbols are used elsewhere in scripture:

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = wife/wives

Eleven stars = Eleven of Jacob's son's, with Joseph being the twelfth star

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars represents the nation Israel.
An interesting perspective but that's only "one stand point" of "many" though I believe my stand point on the woman in the wilderness to be "concrete"...
In Chp.12 as you said the woman has 12 stars on her "Crown" representing the 12 tribes of Israel having "one king"referring to "King David's" True heir Jesus Christ whom was eventually born through the spirit and through Mary the woman in the chapter,anyways I'm getting ahead of myself back to "Symbol" representation" and "discerning" her being clothed by the sun could represent perhaps her "glowing brilliantly" in birth expectations for she was to bring forth Israel's Saviour and the Moon perhaps representing how the "light of that birth" would "dim" like the moon overtime for many in Israel would "not" believe him to be a Saviour and even seek the "low act" of "killing him without cause" as if perhaps representing altogether the Birth and death of Jesus as well as the hope of Israel and the "lowly sin" of Israel.
And the chapter also says the "woman" being with child,travailling in birth and pained to be delivered,and it says she "brought forth a man child" Israel the nation cannot give birth to a "man child" making this "literal" and the child was "caught up unto God,and to his throne,whom else but Jesus would be right at God's throne at birth?
And the woman "fleeing into the wilderness" did not Herod lay claim to Jesus's life and Mary and Joseph had to "stay away" in Egypt "a wilderness"?
Naturally there is alot of discernment but my conclusion,is that the woman in Chp.12 is mary magdalene,and her child being Jesus,for from my perspective it adds up for the most part as far I can discern.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,281
111
63
#50
Hello Lucy,

I believe the designation "Mystery" as in Mystery Babylon, is not referring to the literal city of Babylon, but the pagan practices, the mystery religions of Babylon,

But you say it's Rome and Catholicism which is a real place and a real religion. Then when I offer information you dismiss it saying "it's can't be literal". Please be consistent.

I didn't say Rome was established 600 years ago. What I said was that, within Roman Catholicism can be found most of the practices of the pagan practices of Babylon and I listed some of those practices. So please don't tell me that they don't exist within Roman Catholicism.


Again, I didn't say that you did. I was offering scriptural information regarding the woman who rides the beast as that city that sits on seven hills, and it's not Constantinople or Mecca.

I know who Mystery, Babylon is. When that antichrist is revealed, he is going to provide the power that the seat of the pope has wanted to regain, putting him and the RCC in a position to enforce their power over all of the inhabitants of the earth. Roman Catholicism is the catalyst for that one world religious system.
I offer scriptural information too but you dismiss that. When did I say "they don't exist within Roman Catholicism?"
I told you the opposite. I know full well how pagan Catholicism is. You seem to want to make an argument where there is none.
I wish you would stick to one point instead of trying to dump your entire eschatological thesis into every conversation. It makes it very difficult to have a conversation.
 

joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
13,419
316
83
25
#51
An interesting perspective but that's only "one stand point" of "many" though I believe my stand point on the woman in the wilderness to be "concrete"...
In Chp.12 as you said the woman has 12 stars on her "Crown" representing the 12 tribes of Israel having "one king"referring to "King David's" True heir Jesus Christ whom was eventually born through the spirit and through Mary the woman in the chapter,anyways I'm getting ahead of myself back to "Symbol" representation" and "discerning" her being clothed by the sun could represent perhaps her "glowing brilliantly" in birth expectations for she was to bring forth Israel's Saviour and the Moon perhaps representing how the "light of that birth" would "dim" like the moon overtime for many in Israel would "not" believe him to be a Saviour and even seek the "low act" of "killing him without cause" as if perhaps representing altogether the Birth and death of Jesus as well as the hope of Israel and the "lowly sin" of Israel.
And the chapter also says the "woman" being with child,travailling in birth and pained to be delivered,and it says she "brought forth a man child" Israel the nation cannot give birth to a "man child" making this "literal" and the child was "caught up unto God,and to his throne,whom else but Jesus would be right at God's throne at birth?
And the woman "fleeing into the wilderness" did not Herod lay claim to Jesus's life and Mary and Joseph had to "stay away" in Egypt "a wilderness"?
Naturally there is alot of discernment but my conclusion,is that the woman in Chp.12 is mary magdalene,and her child being Jesus,for from my perspective it adds up for the most part as far I can discern.
To be honest I haven't a clue where this all came to me but well I guess that's the Holy spirit for ya,even I don't know what will be said when I "seriously discuss scripture and want to be accurate and faithful".
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
1,879
237
63
South Australia
adelaiderevival.com
#52
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.
2Thessalonians:



 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
1,879
237
63
South Australia
adelaiderevival.com
#54
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all
power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Thessaloinians 2:


 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,281
111
63
#57
Waggles, we know how idolatrous Catholicism is. So is every other religion of man.That in it'self doesn't make the city of Rome the harlot.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
1,879
237
63
South Australia
adelaiderevival.com
#58
Of course she is the whore, the harlot -
Revelation is the history of the gospel and of Christianity from
the time of John until the end.
No other city or religion has such an important role in the
development of the Christian religion.
Even the major Protestant denominations are lesser variations of
Roman Catholicism - such as Lutherans christening babies, and in their
rites and liturgy.
The Eastern Orthodox churches are very similar to Rome in their icons,
buildings, liturgies and paganised religion - BUT they have no comparison
to the wealth, power and worldwide influence of the RCC.

Revelation is about what happens to the gospel and the church and to
Christianity - it is not about Buddha, or Mohammed or Vishnu or really
even the Jews.

And it is not just the paganism of Rome that identifies her as the whore
and the city on 7 hills but also her politics: her war against the true gospel
and the murder of countless heretics who endeavoured to give us freedom of
worship.
And she is still unrepentant of her sins.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the
merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,
Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins,
and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Revelation 18:
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
6,970
258
83
#59
But you say it's Rome and Catholicism which is a real place and a real religion. Then when I offer information you dismiss it saying "it's can't be literal". Please be consistent.



I offer scriptural information too but you dismiss that. When did I say "they don't exist within Roman Catholicism?"
I told you the opposite. I know full well how pagan Catholicism is. You seem to want to make an argument where there is none.
I wish you would stick to one point instead of trying to dump your entire eschatological thesis into every conversation. It makes it very difficult to have a conversation.
All that I am saying Lucy, is that Roman Catholicism fits the woman who rides the beast to a tee. It is important do do a study on Roman Catholicism, her pope's, the inquisitions and her desire to put all people under her rule, which is still her agenda and which the antichrist will make possible. If you haven't already read it, I would suggest reading "A Woman Rides the Beast - The Roman Catholic church and the last days"

Within the Roman Catholic Church can be found most of the pagan practices of Babylon. She is that city that sits on seven hills, she is woman dressed in purple and scarlet, she was the one who ruled over the kings of the earth at the time John was receiving the information from the angel.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
6,970
258
83
#60
Of course she is the whore, the harlot -
Revelation is the history of the gospel and of Christianity from
the time of John until the end.
No other city or religion has such an important role in the
development of the Christian religion.
Even the major Protestant denominations are lesser variations of
Roman Catholicism - such as Lutherans christening babies, and in their
rites and liturgy.
The Eastern Orthodox churches are very similar to Rome in their icons,
buildings, liturgies and paganised religion - BUT they have no comparison
to the wealth, power and worldwide influence of the RCC.

Revelation is about what happens to the gospel and the church and to
Christianity - it is not about Buddha, or Mohammed or Vishnu or really
even the Jews.

And it is not just the paganism of Rome that identifies her as the whore
and the city on 7 hills but also her politics: her war against the true gospel
and the murder of countless heretics who endeavoured to give us freedom of
worship.
And she is still unrepentant of her sins.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the
merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,
Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins,
and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Revelation 18:
Not to mention that 82' Egyptian obelisk that Caligula brought over from Heliopolis. To me that is giant red flag demonstrating who she really is. There is no reason, no justification, for that object of pagan worship to be sitting in front of what is supposed to be the true church of Christ! She's hiding right out in plain site and has obviously deceived over 1.2 billion. What do you think is going to happen when one of her pope's begins to perform those miracles, signs and wonders. It is going to draw in all of the other false christian sects under her fold. Only the great tribulation saints will reject her and the beast and be willing to die for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God.