Revelation 20:1-10 discussion

[RickShafer]

I said: "I still hold to the premillennial position because I don't see Revelations 19 and 20 as happening in chronological order;
but a restating of the same occurrence, as is common in Hebrew literature."
I know Revelation is translated in the Greek language, but the writer was Hebrew. And he probably wrote it in Aramaic anyway.
The custom of Hebrew writing is to restate the same thing twice in a row in a different way.
(And yes, I know it is prophecy, but John 'the beloved' was Hebrew.)
I wish everyone would take the time to see the debate Stillwaters posted.......it might diffuse some arguments, (or at least hone them).

 

[peterT]

don't be so lazy. go back and actually read it.

Sorry zone but I have looked and can’t see it, so I don’t think that’s called lazy

 

[peterT]

don't be so lazy. go back and actually read it.

I have gone right back and no body, not you, or him or anybody else as quoted scripture saying the devil is bound NOW and in a pit chained up or sealed.

That’s why I said rubbish (show me where)

 

[psychomom]

(forgive me for wishing everyone a happy apocalypse day?

yesterday, our 17 yo daughter noted that "people are making apocalypse jokes like there's no tomorrow."

kids. )

 

[Red33]

start here:

THE ORIGIN OF THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE

THE ORIGIN OF DISPENSATIONAL ESCHATOLOGY AND THE RAPTURE < click

That's not an answer, it's a cop out because you have no continuity in your doctrine nor can you account for all these things that are mentioned in the scriptures. You just ramble on. If the scriptures say 'hereafter' you run right through it with your 'amillennial plow'. Some things you won't get specific about, but you can get up in the morning, make your bed, wash your face, feed the cat, have some breakfast, read a blog, write a post and make sure you respond when nature calls. You have no problem doing that and it all comes natural and no one speaks evil of you for doing all those things. Can't you tell us what happens when Christ comes back and be specific and have continuity in your answers without diverting away with some abstract off-base contrived jargon that lives in your world of Zoneyism? Get some practical 'chipper' in your life.

 

[Red33]

(forgive me for wishing everyone a happy apocalypse day?

yesterday, our 17 yo daughter noted that "people are making apocalypse jokes like there's no tomorrow."

kids. )

That will do well when they transfer that into 'God must have delayed His coming, hasn't He been promising to come back for the past 2,000 years?' 'Some trustworthy God you must serve.' What this does is get people's heart hardened in unbelief and then when it happens on God's time-table, what will they do then? Will they go order a large pizza and some beer with their friends and say, 'Let's eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we might just die'. Then God says, 'So be it', with sudden destruction. I don't think the average believer knows or has even bothered to comprehend what happens on the earth to the children of disobedience when the seals, the trumpets, the woes and the vials are poured out upon the earth. If we really did, we would not want to sleep a wink but would be warning and preaching the gospel day and night and with every fiber of our being.

The 'amillennialist' get all caught up with their preparations and in finding some secluded place they can inhabit to be away from it all because they believe they will be going through it and that God will spare them and the church that has been redeemed by the blood of Christ but appointed them to go through it. If they really believed what they say they believe, they would be preaching the gospel now more than ever because when those thing happen they will be secluded in some remote cave not having the freedom to speak to anyone.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

You’re welcome Zone.

But I wish you would fight a little bit harder Zone, and show some scripture showing your doctrine that the devil is bound NOW and not loose and walking about, and sealed in a pit NOW

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

And how does one reign with Christ as kings and priests on the earth without are crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day?

8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Revelation 12:9-11
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

​

The temple destroyed, a third of Jerusalem dead by the sword in an hour, the Sanhedrin disbanded, all Israel laid to seige, Rome burned, Nero killing himself ... the deception was over, enlightenment paid for in blood revealed the evils to the world of Rome and Law and Pharisaism ...

 

[zone]

That's not an answer, it's a cop out because you have no continuity in your doctrine nor can you account for all these things that are mentioned in the scriptures. You just ramble on. If the scriptures say 'hereafter' you run right through it with your 'amillennial plow'. Some things you won't get specific about, but you can get up in the morning, make your bed, wash your face, feed the cat, have some breakfast, read a blog, write a post and make sure you respond when nature calls. You have no problem doing that and it all comes natural and no one speaks evil of you for doing all those things. Can't you tell us what happens when Christ comes back and be specific and have continuity in your answers without diverting away with some abstract off-base contrived jargon that lives in your world of Zoneyism? Get some practical 'chipper' in your life.

Red.
you're wearying me with your personal, evil attacks.
please stop it.

i've studied the Bible 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 10 years. i can multitask. i research reasonably well.
i've been open to learning - that's how i know the varying views. hello? i offer outside sources for those who aren't afraid of them.
you are - i can't help that.

that's your problem, not mine.

if you refuse to consider the work of others, i can't help it.
if you insist on taking out your frustrations on me, and childishly pretending ZONE invented amillennialism, i can't help that either.

if you watched that video you'd see there is at least one other christian on earth who sees amillennialism.
okay?

 

[Red33]

Red.
you're wearying me with your personal, evil attacks.
please stop it.

i've studied the Bible 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 10 years. i can multitask. i research reasonably well.
i've been open to learning - that's how i know the varying views. hello? i offer outside sources for those who aren't afraid of them.
you are - i can't help that.

that's your problem, not mine.

if you refuse to consider the work of others, i can't help it.
if you insist on taking out your frustrations on me, and childishly pretending ZONE invented amillennialism, i can't help that either.

if you watched that video you'd see there is at least one other christian on earth who sees amillennialism.
okay?

Even if you studied for (50) years, if you have the wrong premise you will come to the wrong conclusion every time. You chide me, when you have not learned to stop speaking evil of others. There are simple things you will not or refuse to answer because they do not fit into your view and if you attempt it you spiritualize them away with some 'jargonated' explanation of an outside source. Even when you do that you still are culpable. Your weariness is your own flesh. You are way off in that hemisphere and many times make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[zone]

Even if you studied for (50) years, if you have the wrong premise you will come to the wrong conclusion every time. You chide me, when you have not learned to stop speaking evil of others. There are simple things you will not or refuse to answer because they do not fit into your view and if you attempt it you spiritualize them away with some 'jargonated' explanation of an outside source. Even when you do that you still are culpable. Your weariness is your own flesh. You are way off in that hemisphere and many times make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

i have nothing more to say to you at any time.
i will use the feature which relieves me from seeing what you write.

unsubscribe thread.

 

[psychomom]

That will do well when they transfer that into 'God must have delayed His coming, hasn't He been promising to come back for the past 2,000 years?' 'Some trustworthy God you must serve.' What this does is get people's heart hardened in unbelief and then when it happens on God's time-table, what will they do then? Will they go order a large pizza and some beer with their friends and say, 'Let's eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we might just die'. Then God says, 'So be it', with sudden destruction. I don't think the average believer knows or has even bothered to comprehend what happens on the earth to the children of disobedience when the seals, the trumpets, the woes and the vials are poured out upon the earth. If we really did, we would not want to sleep a wink but would be warning and preaching the gospel day and night and with every fiber of our being.

The 'amillennialist' get all caught up with their preparations and in finding some secluded place they can inhabit to be away from it all because they believe they will be going through it and that God will spare them and the church that has been redeemed by the blood of Christ but appointed them to go through it. If they really believed what they say they believe, they would be preaching the gospel now more than ever because when those thing happen they will be secluded in some remote cave not having the freedom to speak to anyone.

I hope I didn't offend you, Red.

Caroline was referring to the pagan belief that this day would be 'the end of the world' (quite literally), and she was gently mocking the idea that God is held to a pagan timetable.
She had written 'apocalypse' on the kitchen calendar and then 4 days later "Christmas". We laughed at the irony of that.

I am, personally, settled into the 'premillenial' camp.
I just would like to understand what everyone else is talking about.

Wishing you and yours a very Happy Christmas,
ellie

 

[Bookends]

I think you might find that is talking about Jesus coming at the end of the world and not Jesus coming the first time

For there are 5 kingdoms in Daniel 2. NOT 4

(1)….32This image's head was of fine gold,
(2)….his breast and his arms of silver,
(3)….his belly and his thighs of brass,
(4)….33His legs of iron, 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron
(5)….his feet part of iron and part of clay. , the kingdom shall be divided 42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Jesus came the first time in the legs of iron in the Roman Empire not the feet of clay, the feet and toes is the last kingdom.


Before the head of gold/Babylon was Assyria, and before Assyria was Egypt in Bible history.

That makes 7 kingdoms altogether in Bible history


There are 7 kingdoms altogether, and john lived in the days of Rome the legs of iron, and that’s when Jesus came the first time. As john put it the “ONE IS” and the other “IS NOT YET COME”
But in Daniels vision the stone comes to the last kingdom the feet and toes, NOT the lags of iron.

The ten kings in Revelation would I think represent be the ten toes of Daniel 2.

As its says
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

And what kings are they? Because the other four kings/kingdoms were all dead and buried

(1)….head was of fine gold,
(2)….his breast and his arms of silver,
(3)….his belly and his thighs of brass,
(4)….33His legs of iron,

Yes, but I was referring the 4 satanic kingdoms, the fifth kingdom is the Chruch, whom God hued out without human hands. We are in the fifth kingdom now...

 

[Red33]

I hope I didn't offend you, Red.

Caroline was referring to the pagan belief that this day would be 'the end of the world' (quite literally), and she was gently mocking the idea that God is held to a pagan timetable.
She had written 'apocalypse' on the kitchen calendar and then 4 days later "Christmas". We laughed at the irony of that.

I am, personally, settled into the 'premillenial' camp.
I just would like to understand what everyone else is talking about.

Wishing you and yours a very Happy Christmas,
ellie

Not at all, just relating to some of the attitudes that prevail when this kind of thing happens.

Dittos on Christmas and thanks for all you contribute with the portion of Christ's body.

 

[Bookends]

About Daniel I don't have the time to answer atm, but if you want I'll make a new thread and answer that another day...

As far as Matt. 24:41, are you sure the one taken isn't the one going to hell? Who was taken in Noah's day? Who as taken in Sodom and Gomorrah? I think you have it backward bud. The left behind enters the new heaven and new earth. I don't we'll ever see eye to eye on this

PeterT, I take you not interested? Anyone else interested?

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

I don’t know where they get a 7 year tribulation from Bookends

There is no 7 year tribulation just 3 ½ years, you have to go back and look at what Jesus said in Matt24.
Jesus said

Matt24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
21 For then shall be great tribulation,

Now go to Daniel and see what Jesus was talking about.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

A week is seven years

In the middle of that 7 year covenant or agreement that’s when the great tribulation will begin

Gen29:28And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
29And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.
30And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.

All this is conformed in the book of revelation, as it all talks about a 3 ½ time line or 1260 days or 42 months or time, times, and half time.

It’s a 7 year agreement or covenant, and in the middle of the 7 years then shall be great tribulation

Which = 3 ½ years or 1260 days or 42 months or time, times, and half time.
Its 3 ½ years of Great tribulation not 7 years.

Sounds like an SDA teaching. To be complete then Jesus is killed in the midst of the tribulation but what happens 3 1/2 years later? Stephen preaching religion in the congregation is killed, Saul the pharisee overseeing and approving the action. Soon thereafter, Saul the Pharisee converts to Paul the teacher of The WAY. The end of the 7 years ... the beginning of the end of [approval of] the Pharisees and the Temple system.

 

[dru]

I kind of hate to be the one to try burst your bubble, but there is no pre-tribulation coming.

There is no event in the bible showing Jesus coming before the great tribulation.

There is no last trumpet in the Bible before the great tribulation.

There is no raising the dead in the Bible before the great tribulation.

There is no Jesus coming in the clouds in the Bible before the great tribulation.

There is nothing in the Bible showing Jesus coming before the great tribulation.

Have you ever seen a scripture in the Bible were Jesus comes before the great tribulation?

There is no pre-tribulation coming you have been lied too

But there is plenty of scripture saying jesus comes 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



..

Im a pre -tribulation christian and wont change my mind,what i believe in you cant pop like a bubble,anyway,you clearly saw what my question was about,and since i started this,let me finish it-i'll see you when you get there.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

Quick thought jogger ... what was the longest "AGE" in the Bible? What do 'ages' represent? (don't tell me they lived longer back then because they didn't sin, I walked outta a church one time on that one). Hint what was the 'AGE' of Enoch -- then, what was the 'AGE' of Methuselah?

 

[webchatter]

Insinuating that a loony human explained the propheciy of parousia, or rapture, 100 years ago, is no different than relying on an uninspired book by a man named Josephus to fulfill the opposite viewpoint 1900 yrs ago. Which one is backed up by Scripture?
The Bible does say that in END times, "knowledge will be increased".
No one before the 1950's could imagine how ALL of prophecy could be LITERALLY fulfilled. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be, but ALL OF END TIME PROPHECY CAN BE LITERALLY FULFILLED. Reread it & think about it happening literally.Yes there is some symbolism.
On the other hand, even IF you believe that some of Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in 70 ad, there is still one week left,(7 years), & the last reason for it to be completed. That 7 years is divided into 2, 3 1/2 periods, repeatedly mentioned throughout the Bible. ( Therefore, whether you are pre,mid, or post trib rapture, depends on your interpretation of those2, 3 & 1/2 yr periods & when they begin & end)
There are 2 battles of Gog & Magog, one is at Armageddon before the millenium & one is after the millenium.
Revelation was not written until 100 ad., after 70ad destruction of Jerusalem.I believe Scripture says "all the world will see" etc etc, & I don't think the rest of the world knew what was happening in Jerusalem in 70 ad. Either way, there would still be one week of Daniel remaining,(7 yrs), & the last reason to be fulfilled. Hence the trib, & then remaining prophecy of Jesus Christ.
I see that everyone agrees that Jesus Christ has fulfilled every single prophecy of Him in the past, LITERALLY, not symbolically etc.(born of a virgin,died,rose again, etc). Is anyone denying this?
JESUS CHRIST IS THE PHYSICAL FULFILLMENT OF THE WORD. HE ALWAYS HAS BEEN, & ALWAYS WILL BE THE PHYSICAL FULFILLMENT OF HIS PROPHECY, ALL THE TIME.

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

Red.
you're wearying me with your personal, evil attacks.
please stop it.

i've studied the Bible 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 10 years. i can multitask. i research reasonably well.
i've been open to learning - that's how i know the varying views. hello? i offer outside sources for those who aren't afraid of them.
you are - i can't help that.

that's your problem, not mine.

if you refuse to consider the work of others, i can't help it.
if you insist on taking out your frustrations on me, and childishly pretending ZONE invented amillennialism, i can't help that either.

if you watched that video you'd see there is at least one other christian on earth who sees amillennialism.
okay?

 

[Bookends]

(forgive me for wishing everyone a happy apocalypse day?

yesterday, our 17 yo daughter noted that "people are making apocalypse jokes like there's no tomorrow."

kids. )

Yeah, well the Mayans aren't the only ones who predicted the end and was wrong, many Christians of the modern day Church have also done this, and made the Church look like a fool. I won't say of what eschatology all these false predictions came out of tho, for I love them too...But it's not hard to figure it out!