Revelation

[dcontroversal]

For sure and I agree.....He resurrects/changes the saints.....rewards them in the air as Christ, while exercising Lordship over the kingdoms to the earth and as God pours out his wrath on the unbelieving world that has been gathered under the beast and his kingdom......

The 7th trump you have three things take place.....

1. The Day of the Lord commences with Jesus seizing control of all earthly Kingdoms
2. The Day of Christ commences with him resurrecting/changing and rewarding the saints, the prophets and those who fear God in the AIR
3. The Day of God commences with him pouring out his wrath on the unbelieving world gathered under the banner of the beast and his kingdom...

Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all place the gathering of the elect/saints AFTER the great tribulation of those days....the saints/elect are gathered from the 4 winds of heaven, from the uttermost part of the earth and HEAVEN.....

At the sounding of the 7th trump time shall be no more.....

1. For the saints time no more as we get transformed into our eternal state
2. Time no more for the gentile kingdoms of the world as Jesus takes the reigns
3. Time no more for the lost as Jesus as God pours out his wrath
4. Time no more for Satan as he is bound and cast into the Lake of fire for 1000 years

I will also add.....

The parable of the tares and wheat jives with the above as God begins to deal with the tares first before the angels, as the reapers gather the wheat into the barn.

Paul said a the last TRUMP the resurrection/change takes place....

The siege and fall of Jericho which represents Israel's first victory over sin when coming out of the wilderness of sin when charted sets forth the following....

1. Follows exactly the order of the seals and trumpets
2. Even leaves off the hidden thunders as found within the trumpets
3. Uses the same verbiage of the Thessalonian and Corinthian testimony of the resurrection/change
4. The trumpets sound as a TRUMP, a GREAT SHOUT, ASCENSION and VICTORY

I know it does not matter, but I was taught and believed and defended imminent return until I had to teach through Thessalonians and started seeing scripture that has to be yanked out of context and or ignored in order to teach that.....

Then the ONE resurrection of the saved as described in Revelation 20 came into question because the people killed for not taking the mark LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a 1000 years which is indicative of being resurrected....there is no split resurrection of the saved as the dead in Christ and we which are alive and remain is indicative of ALL of the saved...so if it occurs before the events of REVELATION then when do the one killed during Revelation get resurrected.....

Paul 2nd Thessalonians The body presence of Christ and our gathering together unto him will NOT CME until...

1. THE MAN of SIN be revealed<---Saints lose their heads for refusal of the mark
2. The apo-hystamie of humanity (complete apostatization of man)

 

[dcontroversal]

I am talking abouot the scene in heaven, when the lamb opens the scroll

you have the elect, robbed in their crowns of righteousness, laying their crowns at his feet. praising the lamb who was slew for their own sins.

these are ressurected saints in heaven, already judged before the tribulation period actually begins.

the is the stickler for me.. they can;t be their unless the rapture and bema seat had already taken place. for them, the day of redemption paul spoke of has been a reality and fulfilled.

A couple of points.....

1. Revelation is not in chronological order
2. Did not PAUL state that the dead in Christ are resurrected and those which are alive and remain MEET the LORD in the AIR...not heaven....
3. Before the opening of the Scroll I also see the 24 ELDERS on thrones with harps and golden viols full of the prayers of the saints...
4. And does not Paul teach that the rewards of Crowns to be one are given at the COMING of Christ
5. And I am sure there are things about heaven, in heaven not written about and or given.....

 

[popeye]

There will forever be debates.
I know that it is hard for a believer to read what another believer writes when it is false.
Although it is frustrating at times I do encourage one another to back off, and walk away if you do not agree then it is time to move on.
If you feel bullied, it would be in your best interest not to reply to anyone who is bullying you. If you feel you are being bullied send the person a private message and ask them what is the problem in private.
No one likes to see people (arguing) on this forum. If you show interest in a debate there should be guide lines followed.
If you do not stick to the guide lines then you should not be on the forum.
State your theology and if the other decides to become too argumentative then simply do not involve yourself in further conversation.

So true
You should see the ones I delete LOL

My personal take on this "argueing" point is that a person can respond with the word.Let scripture do the talking.

But lively debate is good ,I think. It is when folks go personal that it gets counterproductive

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A couple of points.....

1. Revelation is not in chronological order

True but look at context. that occured BEFORE he opened the first seal. This before the first judgment came on the earth.

There is no getting around this, This will always be the sticking point against post trib and ammilenialsim which can never be satisfied.

2. Did not PAUL state that the dead in Christ are resurrected and those which are alive and remain MEET the LORD in the AIR...not heaven....

Does not support any case, of course he would meet them in them air before he takes them to heaven to judge them.

3. Before the opening of the Scroll I also see the 24 ELDERS on thrones with harps and golden viols full of the prayers of the saints...

the saints and all the people. Judged, Sealed. Praising the lamb who saved them with his death, these people were already ressurected and given glorified bodies.

4. And does not Paul teach that the rewards of Crowns to be one are given at the COMING of Christ
5. And I am sure there are things about heaven, in heaven not written about and or given.....

true,, But which coming? the one in the air, or the one as you and I know it called. "Boots on the ground".

remember,

there are no signs for the coming of Christ, no man knows it, Yet we can know from the signs of the end, exactly when Christ will return boots on the ground, just by following the prophesy, just like Jesus told Isreal. they should have known the time of his coming. the same will be in the end, no one should be suprised of that coming, it will not be a theif in the night,

I am not arguing for pre-trib, I am not fully convinced myself

I am just showing there are to many unanswered questions, which would not suport post trib, which can not be answered today.

we will all know one day, and praise God no matter who is right, which is why I get angry when we have people come and demand they are right, and condemn others for not believing as they do in this area.

 

[popeye]

Then the ONE resurrection of the saved as described in Revelation 20 came into question because the people killed for not taking the mark LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a 1000 years which is indicative of being resurrected....there is no split resurrection of the saved as the dead in Christ and we which are alive and remain is indicative of ALL of the saved...so if it occurs before the events of REVELATION then when do the one killed during Revelation get resurrected.....

This methodology speaks volumes on how postribs ARRIVE at their doctrine. One dimensionality. I see this when debating orthadox Jews,and ttheir 'reasoning' that produces their DESIRED results. (The Lord God is one....therefore Jesus is out)

UH,no,I can say BOTH.It is mutifaceted.
Most every postrib adherant uses tthe one dimensional template and patterns their conclusions off this template.

I know it does not matter, but I was taught and believed and defended imminent return until I had to teach through Thessalonians and started seeing scripture that has to be yanked out of context and or ignored in order to teach that.....

UM,no,It is postribs that champion and defend a doctrine of omission. So how can you jettison context and then accuse anyone of the same,when context is indeed the building block of prretrib,the bride/groom dimension being the cornerstone

...ahem,which NO POSTRIB ever,ever initiates.
Omit the cornerstone,and the pretrib verses and pooof! postrib is born

 

[popeye]

I am just showing there are to many unanswered questions, which would not suport post trib, which can not be answered today.

Ok,you seem to have an open mind.

Could you honestly post ONE postrib rapture verse or reference alluding to a postrib rapture?

I do not personally know of any.Nothing.

 

[dcontroversal]

True but look at context. that occured BEFORE he opened the first seal. This before the first judgment came on the earth.

There is no getting around this, This will always be the sticking point against post trib and ammilenialsim which can never be satisfied.



Does not support any case, of course he would meet them in them air before he takes them to heaven to judge them.



the saints and all the people. Judged, Sealed. Praising the lamb who saved them with his death, these people were already ressurected and given glorified bodies.




true,, But which coming? the one in the air, or the one as you and I know it called. "Boots on the ground".

remember,

there are no signs for the coming of Christ, no man knows it, Yet we can know from the signs of the end, exactly when Christ will return boots on the ground, just by following the prophesy, just like Jesus told Isreal. they should have known the time of his coming. the same will be in the end, no one should be suprised of that coming, it will not be a theif in the night,

I am not arguing for pre-trib, I am not fully convinced myself

I am just showing there are to many unanswered questions, which would not suport post trib, which can not be answered today.

we will all know one day, and praise God no matter who is right, which is why I get angry when we have people come and demand they are right, and condemn others for not believing as they do in this area.

Like I said, I used to believe, promote and defend pretrib and over the last 25 years have seen too many scriptures that contradict it.....in the very minimum Paul's testimony in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 places the gathering unto Christ AFTER the man of sin has been revealed especially when viewed from the GREEK....and one of the main reasons the Thessalonian church had thought they had missed the resurrection/change was because of tribulation and persecution...PAUL said that is evidence that you have not missed it....so by that one verse (THE COMING of JESUS and OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM) cannot be alleviated as the ingathering of the SAINTS and it does not happen until AFTER the man of SIN has been revealed....

When does the man of sin get revealed...the son of perdition?

 

[john832]

Like I said, I used to believe, promote and defend pretrib and over the last 25 years have seen too many scriptures that contradict it.....in the very minimum Paul's testimony in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 places the gathering unto Christ AFTER the man of sin has been revealed especially when viewed from the GREEK....and one of the main reasons the Thessalonian church had thought they had missed the resurrection/change was because of tribulation and persecution...PAUL said that is evidence that you have not missed it....so by that one verse (THE COMING of JESUS and OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM) cannot be alleviated as the ingathering of the SAINTS and it does not happen until AFTER the man of SIN has been revealed....

When does the man of sin get revealed...the son of perdition?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

 

[dcontroversal]

Ok,you seem to have an open mind.

Could you honestly post ONE postrib rapture verse or reference alluding to a postrib rapture?

I do not personally know of any.Nothing.

When does the man of Sin get revealed?

Paul said that the COMING of JESUS and our GATHERING together unto HIM (spoken to the CHURCH at THESSALONICA) would NOT take place until AFTER the man of SIN has been revealed........!

 

[dcontroversal]

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Yeah written unto his SAVED, IMMERSED disciples that are spoken of as the CHURCH in the present tense no less than two times

When does that take place in REVELATION?

When does he stand in the HOLY PLACE.......When the IMAGE is set and every human has to choose to worship the image? or choose GOD

 

[john832]

When does the man of Sin get revealed?

Paul said that the COMING of JESUS and our GATHERING together unto HIM (spoken to the CHURCH at THESSALONICA) would NOT take place until AFTER the man of SIN has been revealed........!

Exactly, as He said in Mat 24 and Mark 13, the revealing of the AoD (man of sin) is the sign the GT is beginning (3-1/2) years.

 

[popeye]

When does the man of Sin get revealed?

Paul said that the COMING of JESUS and our GATHERING together unto HIM (spoken to the CHURCH at THESSALONICA) would NOT take place until AFTER the man of SIN has been revealed........!

Pretrib is not pre AC.

Doesnt matter if the ac is revealed and the rapture happens the next day. How would that matter?

 

[dcontroversal]

Pretrib is not pre AC.

Doesnt matter if the ac is revealed and the rapture happens the next day. How would that matter?

And the AC MAKES war against the saints, over comes them and wears them out for 1260 days, or 3.5 years or 42 months according to DANIEL and REVELATION....kind of hard to do that if the SAINTS are GONE....there is NO split rapture of the saints

 

[popeye]

side note. I recently met with a friend and we were both noting that a certain auto auction in town closed down for lack of business.

He told me "they opened that auction to go head to head with the other auction.They did it out of spite. "

He paused and said "you can not run a successful buisness out of spite"

I immediately thought of the postrib doctrine. It is indeed ,not a doctrine of compiled truths.It exists to put down and oppose pretrib.
This is why about 99% of them declare "I used to be pretrib"...."untill I...."

Then they get owned,decisivly owned by the verses they know nothing about,and they are so heavily invested in a fable they CAN NOT go there with the word.

 

[dcontroversal]

This methodology speaks volumes on how postribs ARRIVE at their doctrine. One dimensionality. I see this when debating orthadox Jews,and ttheir 'reasoning' that produces their DESIRED results. (The Lord God is one....therefore Jesus is out)

UH,no,I can say BOTH.It is mutifaceted.
Most every postrib adherant uses tthe one dimensional template and patterns their conclusions off this template.




UM,no,It is postribs that champion and defend a doctrine of omission. So how can you jettison context and then accuse anyone of the same,when context is indeed the building block of prretrib,the bride/groom dimension being the cornerstone

...ahem,which NO POSTRIB ever,ever initiates.
Omit the cornerstone,and the pretrib verses and pooof! postrib is born

Nothing more than your view....hey I have no problem with you thinking you will be gone.....time will tell....!

 

[popeye]

And the AC MAKES war against the saints, over comes them and wears them out for 1260 days, or 3.5 years or 42 months according to DANIEL and REVELATION....kind of hard to do that if the SAINTS are GONE....there is NO split rapture of the saints

Well,right away the 2 witnesses defeat this assumtion.

But the answer is that ,yes,indeed the ac does kill ALL THE SAINTS left behind after the rapture. (mat 25 about vs 9 or so)

The pertinant question would be "since all saints die(as the word declares),who is left for a SUPPOSED postrib rapture"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok,you seem to have an open mind.

Could you honestly post ONE postrib rapture verse or reference alluding to a postrib rapture?

I do not personally know of any.Nothing.

I think a few have been posted. which could be taken either way.

We certainly should not be so proud that we would judge postribbers. Its not a salvic issue.

 

[dcontroversal]

side note. I recently met with a friend and we were both noting that a certain auto auction in town closed down for lack of business.

He told me "they opened that auction to go head to head with the other auction.They did it out of spite. "

He paused and said "you can not run a successful buisness out of spite"

I immediately thought of the postrib doctrine. It is indeed ,not a doctrine of compiled truths.It exists to put down and oppose pretrib.
This is why about 99% of them declare "I used to be pretrib"...."untill I...."

Then they get owned,decisivly owned by the verses they know nothing about,and they are so heavily invested in a fable they CAN NOT go there with the word.

More conjecture, opinion and accusation.......so answer how does the AC make war against the saints, prevail against them and wear them out for 3.5 years if the SAINTS have been (raptured).......

To know who the SAINTS are......read the first couple of verses written in the CHURCH letters by PAUL unto the NT CHURCHES....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I said, I used to believe, promote and defend pretrib and over the last 25 years have seen too many scriptures that contradict it.....in the very minimum Paul's testimony in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 places the gathering unto Christ AFTER the man of sin has been revealed especially when viewed from the GREEK....and one of the main reasons the Thessalonian church had thought they had missed the resurrection/change was because of tribulation and persecution...PAUL said that is evidence that you have not missed it....so by that one verse (THE COMING of JESUS and OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM) cannot be alleviated as the ingathering of the SAINTS and it does not happen until AFTER the man of SIN has been revealed....

When does the man of sin get revealed...the son of perdition?

Yeah, but this would support either a pretrib or post trib.

is the man of sin revealed pre trib (7 year covenant)

or mid trib (abomination of desolation)

and if (as I believe) the thing which restrains is the HS indwelt believers (the church) then it must be removed BEFORE the man of sin is revealed.

so I am not sure if it is after, that makes no sense.

 

[popeye]

Nothing more than your view....hey I have no problem with you thinking you will be gone.....time will tell....!

I am not being ugly,but I can assure you postrib is doa. It really gets eliminated by the pretrib verses.

Postrib rpture has no merit,no verses. It is 100% conjecture.