Therapon - black
You are so right, brother, and I apologize. I’ve got so many people kicking at my bones and I sometimes lose perspective. if I remember correctly, you were asking for my take on Revelation five 11:5-6.
“And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
Beginning with Joseph’s visions in Genesis 37 and on down through Scripture, we find that all prophetic visions are figurative. Daniel’s great image of ch.2, the 4 beasts and 2 beasts of chs. 7 & 8, the visions of Zachariah, Peter’s sheet full of unclean beasts, all our figurative! Revelation is a also vision, so it is reasonable to conclude that 11:5-6 is also figurative so let’s look at those verses from that perspective and not all of it shows the church in a good light . . .
--Point made and agreed upon.
“And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth (“is not my word like a fire?”),
-- From 2 Sameul 22:7-9, Job 41:19, Psa 18:8, I understand that the 'fire...mouth' represents anger being spoken, as it demonstrates God's anger in those verses. Now, in my search of 'fire...mouth', I came to a very interesting verse in Jer 5:14. I saw where God said to Jeremiah, 'I will make my Words in your mouth fire'. And with the understanding that Jeremiah was a prophet, I can see that connection of 'mouth...fire' being that of speaking a prophecy against those who desire to hurt those two witnesses. Yes, His words are like fire.
and devoureth their enemies (spiritually): -- and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed (spiritually by not coming to the Lord).
-- Understanding that anointed means 'chosen' and that we are given two people who were chosen to lead others towards God (the purpose of the OT and NT was to lead us back to a fellowship with God the Father), I think these two witnesses are Moses (through the Law) and the man Jesus (through Himself). Hebrews 3 tells us that Christ Jesus and Moses were appointed and both were faithful in their own house. So to me, they are the two anointed ones who stand before the LORD (Zechariah 4) as a testimony of those things which were spoken by God through His Law and through His Son.
I guess actively opposing God's testaments, both speaking of God's foreordained salvational plan, would cause spiritual death to those who would deny the power of God's salvation: the Gospel (the fulfilled testament of the old testament). To attack one is to attack the other.
These have power to shut heaven (“whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven”), that it rain not (the water of the word) in the days aof their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood (to corrupt the Gospel with false doctrine, which we indeed have), and to smite the earth with all plagues (wars), as often as they will.”
--This reminds of the miracles Moses and Aaron performed so I can see where this can be taken literally, I even take it literally. Now, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the two witnesses will corrupt the Gospel with false doctrine. I understand that you see the two witnesses as those from the house of Moses and those from the house of Jesus. Oh, I see, are you saying that the two houses left behind will introduce false doctrine (many denominations within each)? If it is these two houses, how will they be able to plague the earth at will with wars?
Might as well exegete the rest of thje passage for you, too . . .
Revelation 11:7 “And when they (The Two Witnesses) shall have finished their testimony (among the Gentile nations, 1948-1967),
--I feel that since both houses are still here that they both still testify to God's testiments (covenants). But, I fully agree with you that the Jews returning to their land holds much to God remembering the covenant He made with their forefathers (Leviticus 26). Will you explain why you think the two witnesses have ended their witnessing?
the beast (Satan) that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make (spiritual) war against them, and shall overcome them (spiritually with materialism, false doctrine and the cares of this world), and kill them” (spiritually).
--I also accept the apostate church. I just think that the two witnesses (houses) still have a purpose and have not gone the path of complete apostate, but are in the process of it.
Revelation 11:8-11, NAS (Excerpts) “And their dead bodies (Greek: πτώμα, pto’-ma, by definition: a fall, a ruin, the carcass, the bones, i.e., the empty churches.) will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified (Jerusalem).
--I can agree to the statement without a problem. But the timing I am having trouble with. Are there not active Churches and Synagogues in Jerusalem now?
And those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations (the Moslems in the surrounding lands) will look at their dead bodies (the empty churches) for three and a half days (Years of day-years, i.e., from 688AD to 1967AD) and will not permit their dead bodies (the empty churches) to be laid in a tomb (to be torn down).
--I thought that most of the time between those two dates that Israel, and I assume Jerusalem would be included, were laid desolated and uninhabitable as a punishment to the Jews? Did Churches and Synagogues exist there during that time?
And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets (the Christians and Jews) tormented those who dwell on the earth” (it is torment for the lost when the gospel is preached and they refuse to repent).
--I can see where the house of Ishmael would celebrate because of having won their holy war against those from the house of Moses and Jesus (those of the testiments).
