Rom 9:22...an Oxymoron?

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Mar 28, 2016
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#21
We are not in galations we are in romans. Do you see the word galations in the OP?

We are not talking about salvation, we are talking about two groups of people
Yes two groups. One has salvation (the bride of Christ) the other not.

His people named last in Acts is Christian. Its is the new name he once called His same bride, Israel . Not all who say they are Israel are born again Christians .Some remain as Jacob .One who deceives. Because they have not the Spirit of Christ in them. If any man has not the born again s Spirit of Christ .They simply do not belong to Him.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#22
By trying to harmonize it all together and mush it all into one, you have to water down many verses and end up making a mess of the Bible.

Things that are different are not the same. Church is Church, Israel is Israel.

When things contradict just look at who is being spoken to and when and by who.
So nobody can understand the bible if they read more than one book?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#23
Yes two groups. One has salvation (the bride of Christ) the other not.

His people named last in Acts is Christian. Its is the new name he once called His same bride, Israel . Not all who say they are Israel are born again Christians .Some remain as Jacob .One who deceives. Because they have not the Spirit of Christ in them. If any man has not the born again s Spirit of Christ .They simply do not belong to Him.
It does not say the bride of christ in the passage in question.

why is it so hard for people just to stick to a verse.

Isreal (saved and unsaved) and Gentile (saved and unsaved). are the two groups in romans, not who is saved and Whois not saved.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
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#24
Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
The explanation is simple: God doesn't immediately bring such people into judgement and destruction, but rather delays such judgement in order to bring about his plan of salvation and election.

Just like Satan is free to roam about causing chaos. God could have ended it ALL long ago. But Satan is allowed certain free rein in order to accomplish the plan of the ages.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#25
By trying to harmonize it all together and mush it all into one, you have to water down many verses and end up making a mess of the Bible.

Things that are different are not the same. Church is Church, Israel is Israel.

When things contradict just look at who is being spoken to and when and by who.

The bride of Christ spoken of in Genesis 3:15 , is the "one" bride of Christ. One gospel. Her bloody husband's heel was bruised. But he crushed the head of the serpent.

As born again. She is a new creature .Not Jew or Gentile neither male nor female. As sons of God is does not appear what we will be. .

Corrupted flesh and blood could never enter the new order. Why glory in the flesh of men ? Jesus said of His flesh it profits for, nothing zero zip .

What's the hope of Jewish flesh that return to the spiritless lifeless dust the same as gentile flesh ?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus did not say Jewish flesh is life The Spirit of Christ profits for nothing.

That comes from the father of lies who turns thing upside down in order to take away the understanding of our father in heaven .

The time of reformation has come, a great tribulation like never before or ever again.

The one time promised fleshly demonstration of the unseen work of Father and Son working together is over.
No part two or episode two . One demonstration is all that was promised.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, "yet now" henceforth know we him no more.

If we are not to know each other (as commanded above ) after the flesh. Why would we think we could know eternal God who is not a man as us. . . after the rudiments of this corrupted creation after the philosophies of mans oral traditions.?

Will a person ignore the warning as a loving commandment to beware ?

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#26
It does not say the bride of christ in the passage in question.

why is it so hard for people just to stick to a verse.

Isreal (saved and unsaved) and Gentile (saved and unsaved). are the two groups in romans, not who is saved and Whois not saved.
All Israel is not born again Israel . The outward Jew according to the flesh remains dead in their trespasses and sins until and if they have become a inward of born again of the unseen Spirit of Christ . Christian is the new name he named his bride formally calling her Israel.

Why praise the flesh of a outward Jew rather than the inward Spirit of Christ. The bible says whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him .

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

Who do they belong to if not Christ? ?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man "have not" the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

bud62

Active member
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#27
All unbelievers are fitted for destruction and God endures the world for the sake of the last believer that ever will be. Then he destroys all by fire according to Peter.
When HE comes again, And He slays the wicked, They lay from one end of earth to the other, Not burnt but dead, This will be the great feast for the birds that the BIBLE talks about, All the lost that is alive is slain, Than those that are saved , that are in their Greaves will be resurrected And go up to meat JESUS in the CLOUDs, then we that are alive and remain on earth, will be changed, And go up to meat JESUS, in the Clouds, GO to HEAVEN for the 1000 years, This leaves no one on earth alive, This will be the spiritual chain for Satan NO one to TEMP for a 1000 years All are dead or in HEAVEN,
Like JER 4:20-29 tells us will happen, This leaves all the lost that was alive, dead on the ground for the birds to devour,
After the 1000 years in HEAVEN, New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven with GODs saints,[The saved] in it, onto the earth,
The lost will be resurrected, all of them, from the time of Adam to the to the second coming of CHRIST, all the lost, Satan will deceive , them again, and will get them to attack the New Jerusalem, They will compasses the camp of the saints about, and the beloved CITY: REV 20:9 . Then the fire Come down from GOD out of HEAVEN and devours Them, And this will be the second DEATH for Them, After they have suffered for their sins , Some suffer longer then others in the FIRE {which is the LAKE OF FIRE} God will reward them according to their Works, BUT after they have paid their sin debt, Like JESUS says some will be beaten with few strips And some will be beaten with many strips, Some are punished more then others, Then they will be brought to ashes upon the Ground , Then GOD is going to purify and recreate this earth, Then the righteous will tread down the wicked for they will be ashes under the soles of the saints feet. LIKE the BIBLE says in MALACHI 4:1-3 ,The first time they will lay dead on the ground And the second time they will be burnt to ASHES. ISAIAH 47:14 Behold they shall be as stubble ; the fire shall burn them ; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
It's not the fire that is eternal, it is the cirrcumstances of the fire ,that is Eturnal, they will be ashes for ETERNITY .
GOD bless as HE sees fit,
They HAVE die the first death AND THEY have suffered and died the second DEATH, and brought to ashes the second death. GOD bless as HE sees fit.


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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#28
Yet there are still Jews and Greeks and males and females.

This verse is talking about salvation.
The verse is teaching that we are all the same in the Presence of our Maker, Savior and King. If you need another reference inferring this same truth read about the Sadducees and how they could not understand the a woman having been married to seven brothers successwively after each died was not the wife of any come the resurrection. Think on ¨the reply of our Lord...
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#29
All Israel is not born again Israel . The outward Jew according to the flesh remains dead in their trespasses and sins until and if they have become a inward of born again of the unseen Spirit of Christ . Christian is the new name he named his bride formally calling her Israel.

Why praise the flesh of a outward Jew rather than the inward Spirit of Christ. The bible says whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him .

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

Who do they belong to if not Christ? ?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man "have not" the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
That does not explain romans 10 and 11 were Paul seperates believing/unbelieving jew from gentile/

Your taking two topics. And uniting them as one.

Thats not he way we should interpret scripture
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#30
Nope

you need to read the passage again. Paul seperated jew and gentile

As He says also in Hosea:

I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”


here we see gentiles are going to also be called Gods people, and it was prophesied in the OT


27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:


Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”


remnant/seed. Those terms are meaningless if it is not concerning one nation.

God is promising he will never let isreal as a nation and a people ease to exist. If he did not leave a remnant, they would completely lost forever.. like so many o ther nations did.
The two words that you are not interpreting according to their context are; Israel and saved. Saved, according to Greek = "delivered", and there is the nation of Israel, which was God's chosen nation, but all Israel is not of Jacob/Israel, Rom 9 (God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 33:28). God choose Jacob over Esau for the purpose of showing that his "election" might stand, Rom 9. Jacob/Israel is representative of all of God's elect.

Matthew 20:14-16, Many (elect) are called, but few (of the elect) are chosen (to have the doctrine of Jesus revealed to them). Ezk 1:15-16, explains their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. The outer wheel being all of God's elect people, as the invisible church, and the inner wheel being those elect that God choose to reveal the doctrine of Jesus to..

The invisible church is made up of the larger portion of the elect who are still babes in Christ, and the visible church is made up of the few elect that have been revealed the doctrine of Jesus. Matt 7:13-14, the two gates explains this also. The wide gate being babes (the many called) in Christ, who are believing in, and preaching a false doctrine, and the strait gate being the few that find it by having been revealed the doctrine that leads to an abundant life as they sojourn here on earth.

The duty of the called preachers is to feed the flock (God's children) informing them of the good news of the gospel, that they might continue to grow in the knowledge of the truths of the word. Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, a little here, and a little there.

The inspired word of God was not written to the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, that cannot discern the things of the Spirit, telling them how to get delivered eternally, but it was written to God's elect, as instructions, as how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth.
 
Mar 14, 2011
70,779
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#31
The two words that you are not interpreting according to their context are; Israel and saved. Saved, according to Greek = "delivered", and there is the nation of Israel, which was God's chosen nation, but all Israel is not of Jacob/Israel, Rom 9 (God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 33:28). God choose Jacob over Esau for the purpose of showing that his "election" might stand, Rom 9. Jacob/Israel is representative of all of God's elect.

Matthew 20:14-16, Many (elect) are called, but few (of the elect) are chosen (to have the doctrine of Jesus revealed to them). Ezk 1:15-16, explains their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. The outer wheel being all of God's elect people, as the invisible church, and the inner wheel being those elect that God choose to reveal the doctrine of Jesus to..

The invisible church is made up of the larger portion of the elect who are still babes in Christ, and the visible church is made up of the few elect that have been revealed the doctrine of Jesus. Matt 7:13-14, the two gates explains this also. The wide gate being babes (the many called) in Christ, who are believing in, and preaching a false doctrine, and the strait gate being the few that find it by having been revealed the doctrine that leads to an abundant life as they sojourn here on earth.

The duty of the called preachers is to feed the flock (God's children) informing them of the good news of the gospel, that they might continue to grow in the knowledge of the truths of the word. Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, a little here, and a little there.

The inspired word of God was not written to the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, that cannot discern the things of the Spirit, telling them how to get delivered eternally, but it was written to God's elect, as instructions, as how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth.
this is true on the context of Eternal salvation...

But your ignoring the words remnant, and blinded in part. And how we as gentile believers shoudl not be puffed up in pride. Because if they (isreal) fell. We too can fall.

And then the prophecy that when the time of the gentile is complete. All isreal will be saved (not all people. Just the nation of israe.

You have to use context my friend

romans 9 speaks to the question, did God make a mistake Chosing Israel

roman 9 the last part, and 10 - 11 speak to the fact that Gentiles would be called Gods people even n the OT and that Israel still has a place. Even though they are currently in sin and will be shortly punished (ad 70) but even after this, Israel as a nation will be saved.
 

bud62

Active member
Jan 4, 2020
890
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washburn Tn
#32
When HE comes again, And He slays the wicked, They lay from one end of earth to the other, Not burnt but dead, This will be the great feast for the birds that the BIBLE talks about, All the lost that is alive is slain, Than those that are saved , that are in their Greaves will be resurrected And go up to meat JESUS in the CLOUDs, then we that are alive and remain on earth, will be changed, And go up to meat JESUS, in the Clouds, GO to HEAVEN for the 1000 years, This leaves no one on earth alive, This will be the spiritual chain for Satan NO one to TEMP for a 1000 years All are dead or in HEAVEN,
Like JER 4:20-29 tells us will happen, This leaves all the lost that was alive, dead on the ground for the birds to devour,
After the 1000 years in HEAVEN, New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven with GODs saints,[The saved] in it, onto the earth,
The lost will be resurrected, all of them, from the time of Adam to the to the second coming of CHRIST, all the lost, Satan will deceive , them again, and will get them to attack the New Jerusalem, They will compasses the camp of the saints about, and the beloved CITY: REV 20:9 . Then the fire Come down from GOD out of HEAVEN and devours Them, And this will be the second DEATH for Them, After they have suffered for their sins , Some suffer longer then others in the FIRE {which is the LAKE OF FIRE} God will reward them according to their Works, BUT after they have paid their sin debt, Like JESUS says some will be beaten with few strips And some will be beaten with many strips, Some are punished more then others, Then they will be brought to ashes upon the Ground , Then GOD is going to purify and recreate this earth, Then the righteous will tread down the wicked for they will be ashes under the soles of the saints feet. LIKE the BIBLE says in MALACHI 4:1-3 ,The first time they will lay dead on the ground And the second time they will be burnt to ASHES. ISAIAH 47:14 Behold they shall be as stubble ; the fire shall burn them ; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
It's not the fire that is eternal, it is the cirrcumstances of the fire ,that is Eturnal, they will be ashes for ETERNITY .
GOD bless as HE sees fit,
They HAVE die the first death AND THEY have suffered and died the second DEATH, and brought to ashes the second death. GOD bless as HE sees fit.


View attachment 211160
I was saying that that when JESUS comes , that the wicked are killed and not burnt , They are burnt , when the New Jerusalam Comes down at HIS 3rd coming,
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
4,814
712
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#33
this is true on the context of Eternal salvation...

But your ignoring the words remnant, and blinded in part. And how we as gentile believers shoudl not be puffed up in pride. Because if they (isreal) fell. We too can fall.

And then the prophecy that when the time of the gentile is complete. All isreal will be saved (not all people. Just the nation of israe.

You have to use context my friend

romans 9 speaks to the question, did God make a mistake Chosing Israel

roman 9 the last part, and 10 - 11 speak to the fact that Gentiles would be called Gods people even n the OT and that Israel still has a place. Even though they are currently in sin and will be shortly punished (ad 70) but even after this, Israel as a nation will be saved.
Can you explain to me, why you think that God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel? After Gen 33:28, should we not consider that from that time forward that scriptures that use Israel in them, could be referring to Jacob and not the nation of Israel? Does not God's elect include people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation? Rev 5:9.
this is true on the context of Eternal salvation...

But your ignoring the words remnant, and blinded in part. And how we as gentile believers shoudl not be puffed up in pride. Because if they (isreal) fell. We too can fall.

And then the prophecy that when the time of the gentile is complete. All isreal will be saved (not all people. Just the nation of israe.

You have to use context my friend

romans 9 speaks to the question, did God make a mistake Chosing Israel

roman 9 the last part, and 10 - 11 speak to the fact that Gentiles would be called Gods people even n the OT and that Israel still has a place. Even though they are currently in sin and will be shortly punished (ad 70) but even after this, Israel as a nation will be saved.
What is your interpretation of "many called, but few chosen"? Just curious.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,220
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#34
Does not God's elect include people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation? Rev 5:9.
Nope. The word elect is not used in Revelation 5. You’re adding your interpretation to Scripture.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
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#35
That does not explain romans 10 and 11 were Paul seperates believing/unbelieving jew from gentile/

Your taking two topics. And uniting them as one.

Thats not he way we should interpret scripture
Why would you separate what God call one (sinners)

Has certain corrupted DNA fallen short of the unseen glory of God and the others not?

Romans 10 informs us no difference . Why separate the two. Rather than walking by faith the unseen eternal?

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Are we to call on Jews?
 

bud62

Active member
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#36
Can you explain to me, why you think that God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel? After Gen 33:28, should we not consider that from that time forward that scriptures that use Israel in them, could be referring to Jacob and not the nation of Israel? Does not God's elect include people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation? Rev 5:9.


What is your interpretation of "many called, but few chosen"? Just curious.
If you are CHRIST, Then are you Abraham SEED, We are spiritual Jews if we are saved, Even though we are Gentiles
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
4,814
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#37
Nope. The word elect is not used in Revelation 5. You’re adding your interpretation to Scripture.
Rev 5 is discussing who is in the book of life. Are not all of God's elect in the book of life?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,220
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#38
Rev 5 is discussing who is in the book of life. Are not all of God's elect in the book of life?
Nope? God’s elect physical people Israel were not all saved. God elected them for the purpose to carry forth the seed, not for salvation.
 
Mar 14, 2011
70,779
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#39
Why would you separate what God call one (sinners)

Has certain corrupted DNA fallen short of the unseen glory of God and the others not?

Romans 10 informs us no difference . Why separate the two. Rather than walking by faith the unseen eternal?

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Are we to call on Jews?
why?

because paul did in romans 10 and 11.

should I twist pauls words and call him a liar? Say he said really something else. Or change the meaning of what he said just so it fits my own belief system?

salvation is not the issue here, you all want to make a salvation issue where there is no,

unbelieving Isreal will NOT be restored to her land and live in peace, they will Not recieve Jesus as her king, and they will NOT be a testimony to the world

this is why there is never any real discussion, because you all base your whole attack against dispensational thinking on the bases false Interpretation of what it means

as long as you do this, there will never be any real fruitful discussion

 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,664
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#40
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
In response to your question we are to understand from this that:
1. Wicked human beings (such as was Pharaoh) need to be aware that God's wrath and power will be exercised against them.
2. Even though God knows who will repent and who will not, He gives all sinners sufficient time to repent. Therefore He endures with much patience their wicked deeds, just as He did before the Flood.
3. Since He knows the ones who will continue to remain evil and wicked, they are designated as "vessels of wrath" -- those who will experience the wrath of God.
4. Since their ultimate end is eternal *destruction* (ruin, misery and torment) in Hell, they have been prepared for Hell from the beginning.
5. This does not mean that God elects some for Hell, but they elect themselves by refusing to repent of their evil deeds and be converted.