Rom 9:22...an Oxymoron?

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Mar 28, 2016
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#41
why?

because paul did in romans 10 and 11.

should I twist pauls words and call him a liar? Say he said really something else. Or change the meaning of what he said just so it fits my own belief system?

salvation is not the issue here, you all want to make a salvation issue where there is no,

unbelieving Isreal will NOT be restored to her land and live in peace, they will Not recieve Jesus as her king, and they will NOT be a testimony to the world

this is why there is never any real discussion, because you all base your whole attack against dispensational thinking on the bases false Interpretation of what it means

as long as you do this, there will never be any real fruitful discussion
Defining the meaning is not changing the word .Words have meaning. The bible has a warning not to add new meaning to one word ,it can change the context and the intent of the author . We should be careful how we hear.

What does the word Israel mean? And which one seeing all Isreal is not what it was intended to mean . Is Jacob part of Israel seeing his named was changed for some reason ? what does the old name Jacob mean?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#42
The bible has a warning not to add new meaning to one word ,it can change the context and the intent of the author .
Where in Scripture is this warning? Chapter and verse please, with no additional commentary.
 
#43
Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
I believe the "vessels of wrath" are both the Jew and the Gentile, as Paul explains in Romans9:11 forward. Moreover, as explained in chapter 11 of Romans, the Jews were not supposed to believe in Christ, at least, most of them. Their unbelief was a catalyst for the Gentiles to believe. The Jewish people, my people by the way, have played their part well throughout history, including, but not limited to the Spanish Inquisition, the Russian pogroms and Hitler's Germany. Now, since the "time of the Gentile" is close to being closed, "all Israel shall indeed be saved." Is our Heavenly Father's wisdom and knowledge unsearchable, or what? Love the discussion. James.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#44
Defining the meaning is not changing the word .Words have meaning. The bible has a warning not to add new meaning to one word ,it can change the context and the intent of the author . We should be careful how we hear.

What does the word Israel mean? And which one seeing all Isreal is not what it was intended to mean . Is Jacob part of Israel seeing his named was changed for some reason ? what does the old name Jacob mean?
Genesis 32:28
And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

there is the meaning of the word

the term has many uses though, in order to understand which one is used one must use context

the most common use is a name given to a nation who are children named after this man who was first given the name, Ie jacob/israel
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#45
If you are CHRIST, Then are you Abraham SEED, We are spiritual Jews if we are saved, Even though we are Gentiles
You have a poor way of skirting around my questions. Do you not have the knowledge to answer reasonably?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#46
All unbelievers are fitted for destruction and God endures the world for the sake of the last believer that ever will be. Then he destroys all by fire according to Peter.
So how does the phrase 'He endures (them) with much patience' fit into your scheme of things? The passage speaks of the vessels of wrath that His patience is directed at.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#47
The explanation is simple: God doesn't immediately bring such people into judgement and destruction, but rather delays such judgement in order to bring about his plan of salvation and election.

Just like Satan is free to roam about causing chaos. God could have ended it ALL long ago. But Satan is allowed certain free rein in order to accomplish the plan of the ages.
Thanks for being 'on topic'.
But the passage seems to counter weight His patience with 'vessels of wrath prepared for destruction'
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#48
In response to your question we are to understand from this that:
1. Wicked human beings (such as was Pharaoh) need to be aware that God's wrath and power will be exercised against them.
2. Even though God knows who will repent and who will not, He gives all sinners sufficient time to repent. Therefore He endures with much patience their wicked deeds, just as He did before the Flood.
3. Since He knows the ones who will continue to remain evil and wicked, they are designated as "vessels of wrath" -- those who will experience the wrath of God.
4. Since their ultimate end is eternal *destruction* (ruin, misery and torment) in Hell, they have been prepared for Hell from the beginning.
5. This does not mean that God elects some for Hell, but they elect themselves by refusing to repent of their evil deeds and be converted.
Thanks for sticking to the topic and your explanation is plausible although in context of the two previous verses it remains difficult...

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Rom 9:20-21)
 

bud62

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#49
You have a poor way of skirting around my questions. Do you not have the knowledge to answer reasonably?
Well if I knew what you are talking about, I guess I'd try to answer you, GOD bless as HE sees fit
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#50
I believe the "vessels of wrath" are both the Jew and the Gentile, as Paul explains in Romans9:11 forward. Moreover, as explained in chapter 11 of Romans, the Jews were not supposed to believe in Christ, at least, most of them. Their unbelief was a catalyst for the Gentiles to believe. The Jewish people, my people by the way, have played their part well throughout history, including, but not limited to the Spanish Inquisition, the Russian pogroms and Hitler's Germany. Now, since the "time of the Gentile" is close to being closed, "all Israel shall indeed be saved." Is our Heavenly Father's wisdom and knowledge unsearchable, or what? Love the discussion. James.
Yes, I pretty much agree with the above, especially Rom 9-11 taken as a whole, BUT, I have a bit difficulty in that section around 9:22 and is a partial reason I can play devil's advocate in the Calvinist/Arminian debate. Thanks and Shalom.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#51
Thanks for sticking to the topic and your explanation is plausible although in context of the two previous verses it remains difficult...Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Rom 9:20-21)
This should not be taken to mean that God predetermines the salvation of people. That would contradict the Gospel. However, since He knows the end from the beginning, He assigns the unrepentant to dishonor, and the repentant to honor.
 

bud62

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#52
So how does the phrase 'He endures (them) with much patience' fit into your scheme of things? The passage speaks of the vessels of wrath that His patience is directed at.
HE was waiting on the ones that was going to come to HIM. So HE endures all of the sin that is going on till the last person that is going to come to HIM COMES, This is what I get out of it, GOD bless as HE sees fit
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#53
This should not be taken to mean that God predetermines the salvation of people. That would contradict the Gospel. However, since He knows the end from the beginning, He assigns the unrepentant to dishonor, and the repentant to honor.
Then how does 'patience' come into the picture since He already knows the end from the beginning?
 

bud62

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#54
Then how does 'patience' come into the picture since He already knows the end from the beginning?
HE has't to have Patience to wait on the last one to come in. HE doesn't like all the sin that is going on in this world. They would be lost if HE did not wait on them to come to HIM, And be saved.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#55
Then how does 'patience' come into the picture since He already knows the end from the beginning?
While God knows the end from the beginning, He does not predetermine it for anyone. Sinners can and do repent, so God's patience and longsuffering are meant to give all the wicked ample opportunity to repent rather than perish.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering [PATIENT] to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#56
HE was waiting on the ones that was going to come to HIM. So HE endures all of the sin that is going on till the last person that is going to come to HIM COMES, This is what I get out of it, GOD bless as HE sees fit
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Rom 9:21)
If He is making them into 'vessels unto honor', as a Potter forming the pot...why wait?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#57
So glad this is back on track, I'll stand back for awhile :)
 

bud62

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#58
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Rom 9:21)
If He is making them into 'vessels unto honor', as a Potter forming the pot...why wait?
IF HE did NOT wait on them to come out of their sins they would BE lost , WITHOUT GOD, IF you leave this world with on you , you wiil be lost ,And HE couldn't let you into HEAVEN. Unless we repent , WE will perish,
 

bud62

Well-known member
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#59
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Rom 9:21)
If He is making them into 'vessels unto honor', as a Potter forming the pot...why wait?
He is not saying that HE makes some to be LOST and some to be saved, JESUS says that it's not his will that any would perish, But that all would repent and BE SAVED.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#60
So how does the phrase 'He endures (them) with much patience' fit into your scheme of things? The passage speaks of the vessels of wrath that His patience is directed at.
God uses the wicked to provide for the few whom he saves. The world is too big for us to handle alone.