Rom 9:22...an Oxymoron?

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#61
God uses the wicked to provide for the few whom he saves. The world is too big for us to handle alone.
Oh, you mean like when the wicked persecute and martyr those Christians whom he saves?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#62
In response to your question we are to understand from this that:
1. Wicked human beings (such as was Pharaoh) need to be aware that God's wrath and power will be exercised against them.
2. Even though God knows who will repent and who will not, He gives all sinners sufficient time to repent. Therefore He endures with much patience their wicked deeds, just as He did before the Flood.
3. Since He knows the ones who will continue to remain evil and wicked, they are designated as "vessels of wrath" -- those who will experience the wrath of God.
4. Since their ultimate end is eternal *destruction* (ruin, misery and torment) in Hell, they have been prepared for Hell from the beginning.
5. This does not mean that God elects some for Hell, but they elect themselves by refusing to repent of their evil deeds and be converted.
By God's foreknowledge, he saw that no man would seek him, no, not one. Psalms 53:2-3. That is why he choose an elect people out of those that would not seek him, before the foundation of the world, Eph 1. and had Jesus to adopt them as his children. "all that the Father gave him". John 6:39.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#63
Defining the meaning is not changing the word .Words have meaning. The bible has a warning not to add new meaning to one word ,it can change the context and the intent of the author . We should be careful how we hear.

What does the word Israel mean? And which one seeing all Isreal is not what it was intended to mean . Is Jacob part of Israel seeing his named was changed for some reason ? what does the old name Jacob mean?
Jacob/Israel and the nation of Israel, are two different Israels. Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect. Rom 9:11.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#64
By God's foreknowledge, he saw that no man would seek him, no, not one. Psalms 53:2-3. That is why he choose an elect people out of those that would not seek him, before the foundation of the world, Eph 1. and had Jesus to adopt them as his children. "all that the Father gave him". John 6:39.
Ok, then this gets back to one of my original questions, 'Why would He have to endure with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction' if He passed them over in His election?
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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#65
Ok, then this gets back to one of my original questions, 'Why would He have to endure with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction' if He passed them over in His election?
Can you imagine how hard it would be to put with those God hating stiff necked rebellious people? They preyed on Gods chosen people, made merchandise of the word of God, lied, cheated and done every imaginable wickedness before God. I’m sure God was relieved when it was time for their destruction.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#66
Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
Rom.9:22 isn't a question. It's a statement. The word "what" was incorrectly added by the translators. The sentence should read, "If God willing to show his wrath...."

From vss.22- 29, Paul shows how God wasn't willing to show his wrath. Then in vs.30, he poses the question.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#67
Rom.9:22 isn't a question. It's a statement. The word "what" was incorrectly added by the translators. The sentence should read, "If God willing to show his wrath...."
That's a matter of interpretation since the Greek didn't have much of the punctuation as we do...like 'question marks'.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#68
Oh, you mean like when the wicked persecute and martyr those Christians whom he saves?
In the OT God did not drive the Canaanites from the land all at once. Because Israel being too few in number would not be able to maintain the land and wild animals. It's that sort of thing.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#69
In the OT God did not drive the Canaanites from the land all at once. Because Israel being too few in number would not be able to maintain the land and wild animals. It's that sort of thing.
what was Gods command to Israel when they went in? Did he not say to do this, and Israel disobeyed?
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#70
That's a matter of interpretation since the Greek didn't have much of the punctuation as we do...like 'question marks'.
No, it's a matter of this,

you...were....enemies Col.1:21

when we were enemies Rom.5:10
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#71
No, it's a matter of this,

you...were....enemies Col.1:21

when we were enemies Rom.5:10
Punctuation is determined by the context.
If you think you have a better grap on the languages than the translators to turn Rom 9:22 from a question into an indicative, be my guest.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#72
Where in Scripture is this warning? Chapter and verse please, with no additional commentary.
The commandment and not just a good philosophical suggestion is "ye shall not"

Deuteronomy 4 King James Version (KJV) Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.Ye shall not add unto the word (ONE) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it (One) , that ye may keep the commandments (MANY) of the Lord your God which I command you.

The warning in Revelation is in respect to the perfect. Toghter they work perfectly together to author the Holy Spirit from Plagiarism . We are to have no gods before our God .Change the meaning of one word. . . change the intent of the context.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#74
The commandment and not just a good philosophical suggestion is "ye shall not"

Deuteronomy 4 King James Version (KJV) Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.Ye shall not add unto the word (ONE) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it (One) , that ye may keep the commandments (MANY) of the Lord your God which I command you.

The warning in Revelation is in respect to the perfect. Toghter they work perfectly together to author the Holy Spirit from Plagiarism . We are to have no gods before our God .Change the meaning of one word. . . change the intent of the context.
Here is your earlier statement, which I questioned:

"The bible has a warning not to add new meaning to one word ,it can change the context and the intent of the author ."
The verse you quoted from Deuteronomy does not "warn" the reader not to "add new meaning" to "one word".

Rather, it commands the reader not to add to the word. You have just done exactly what God commands you not to do.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#75
Punctuation is determined by the context.
If you think you have a better grap on the languages than the translators to turn Rom 9:22 from a question into an indicative, be my guest.
The context is,

if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.......What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Vs 22,30
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#76
Yes. It would seem if we were still enemies. We would be in trouble.
Yes garee, we would be, but we aren't, because God wanted us who were vessels of wrath to be saved.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#77
Ok, then this gets back to one of my original questions, 'Why would He have to endure with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction' if He passed them over in His election?
This would tie in with the parable of 'the kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field", and when he slept, his enemy came and sowed tares (vessels of wrath) among the wheat. The man that sowed the good seed, said shall we go and gather the tares up? And he answered, "Nay, lest while ye gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them". "Let both grow until the harvest (much longsuffering).
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#78
The context is,

if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.......What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Vs 22,30
So? A question makes perfect sense in it's context.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#79
This would tie in with the parable of 'the kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field", and when he slept, his enemy came and sowed tares (vessels of wrath) among the wheat. The man that sowed the good seed, said shall we go and gather the tares up? And he answered, "Nay, lest while ye gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them". "Let both grow until the harvest (much longsuffering).
So do you believe some are predestined to be tares?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#80
Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
The wicked go astray from the womb and God has prepared the wicked for the day of evil.