Rom 9:22...an Oxymoron?

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Mar 14, 2011
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Many are called to be his elect, but few of the elect are chosen to receive and understand the truth of Christ's doctrine. This harmonizes with Matt 7, the wide gate being all of the elect that do not have the full knowledge of the doctrine of Christ, and the strait gate being those of the elect that the Holy Spirit has revealed the truths of Christ's doctrine. Jesus said "I thank thee, Father, that thou hast hidden these truths from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes".
that passage says we must enter in.

so there is something the person has to do..

ie follow christ through the cross

follow the world and reject the cross
 
Jul 8, 2018
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that passage says we must enter in.

so there is something the person has to do..

ie follow christ through the cross

follow the world and reject the cross
Christ died for your sins on the cross before you were born. Did you follow him "through" the cross 2000 plus years before you were born? Your terminology does not compute.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Christ died for your sins on the cross before you were born. Did you follow him "through" the cross 2000 plus years before you were born? Your terminology does not compute.
Jesus died looking forward (forknowledge)

he still said, entet by the narrow gate, and not by the wide

your language skills are lacking
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Here is your earlier statement, which I questioned:



The verse you quoted from Deuteronomy does not "warn" the reader not to "add new meaning" to "one word".

Rather, it commands the reader not to add to the word. You have just done exactly what God commands you not to do.

Which new meaning did I add to as one already established ? The word apostle which no other meaning means sent one? Is that what you meant?

It was a warning for changing the meaning of one word and therefore making it possible change the intent of the author.It is needed to keep the commandments plural . . . all of them

I would think it would be like saying. . . . the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments, (everyone).

It would be like Jesus in the wilderness when tempted by the father of lies and Jesus' Father put his words on the lips of His Son .rebuking the spirit of lies as it is written three time and the spirt of error fled

The warning for all the words in the entire cannon is in the end of the book of prophecy. last chapter. They both work together to protect the authorship.

Deuteronomy 4 King James Version (KJV) Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Which one do you think can be dismissed the one above or the one in the last chapter.?? .
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Which new meaning did I add to as one already established ?
I didn't say you added new meaning. Read my post more carefully.

It was a warning for changing the meaning of one word and therefore making it possible change the intent of the author.

No it isn't; I explained that already. Read the Scripture more carefully.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Yes garee, we would be, but we aren't, because God wanted us who were vessels of wrath to be saved.
Hi Thanks

The letter of the law is still in effect as the "sting of sin" and our loving Father disciplines those he does love as they do suffer the pains of living in a body of death . But the wrath of God which began in the garden of Eden is the same wrath being revealed to the world and us today . Our hope above all hope abides in Christ we suffer with him not as Him . We have that treasure in us but not of us.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Not the same vessels.
According to the text He creates two kinds of people, one kind for salvation and one kind for destruction.

One kind destined for heaven and one kind destined for hell.

But you might ask, if some are destined for hell then how can God hold them accountable for their sin, since he created them that way? (Verse 19)

Who are you to question God? (Verse 20)
When does God do the forming?
When the clay is on the wheel being fashioned into what the potter wants it to be, not when he's creating the clay from nothing.

Pharaoh was 'made' a vessel destined for destruction by God when he hardened his heart against the Lord. That was God's prerogative to do so. And He did that based on Pharaoh hardening his heart, and in His foreknowledge that he was going to do that. And that decision to reshape the clay and harden it into place can not be challenged or questioned, even by the clay itself--"Why did you harden me? You know I can't resist your will in this matter?" No, you can't Pharaoh. The Potter decides what he's going to do with the clay that can not be molded in his hands.

I apologize for the lengthy quote, but Jeremiah 18 helps us to see that explanation is more in line with what Paul is getting at:

"1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ 12“But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’" - Jeremiah 18:1-12


It isn't that the Potter purposely created the clay to be uncooperative and, therefore, destined to be molded and hardened into a vessel set apart for destruction. But rather the clay was uncooperative when molded and so the Potter, entirely at his own discretion, fashioned and hardened it in place into a vessel set apart for destruction, not for good. And He did that to show the glory of Him not doing that to other pieces of clay.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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When does God do the forming?
When the clay is on the wheel being fashioned into what the potter wants it to be, not when he's creating the clay from nothing.

Pharaoh was 'made' a vessel destined for destruction by God when he hardened his heart against the Lord. That was God's prerogative to do so. And He did that based on Pharaoh hardening his heart, and in His foreknowledge that he was going to do that. And that decision to reshape the clay and harden it into place can not be challenged or questioned, even by the clay itself--"Why did you harden me? You know I can't resist your will in this matter?" No, you can't Pharaoh. The Potter decides what he's going to do with the clay that can not be molded in his hands.

I apologize for the lengthy quote, but Jeremiah 18 helps us to see that explanation is more in line with what Paul is getting at:

"1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ 12“But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’" - Jeremiah 18:1-12


It isn't that the Potter purposely created the clay to be uncooperative and, therefore, destined to be molded and hardened into a vessel set apart for destruction. But rather the clay was uncooperative when molded and so the Potter, entirely at his own discretion, fashioned and hardened it in place into a vessel set apart for destruction, not for good. And He did that to show the glory of Him not doing that to other pieces of clay.
Mankind is a beast of the field of clay whose number is 666 .The Potter starts out with the same moldable clay .

That which is being shaped has nothing to with co operating.. But rather what is required is the will as a work of one faith or labor of love .Let there be; and there was.

Those that look to the thing seen the temporal as having some power in the matter. They would seem to be recognized by those who murmur and could be turning things upside down removing God's understanding. And giving it to what the eyes see the temporal clay

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:philippians 2:13-14

I think we should be careful how we hear or say we hear God. The seed snatcher is just waiting to take away our rest.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Yes; you inserted words in the Scripture you quoted.
Inserted words or inserted my opinion in the same way as yours .Private interpretations. Not the interpretation that law (Deuteronomy 4:2) is protecting. The witness of God .His interpretation.

Which words have I inserted in the Scripture?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Inserted words or inserted my opinion in the same way as yours .Private interpretations. Not the interpretation that law (Deuteronomy 4:2) is protecting. The witness of God .His interpretation.

Which words have I inserted in the Scripture?
I don't put additional words in the middle of Scripture passages that I quote, so it's not the same way.
 
Jul 8, 2018
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Jesus died looking forward (forknowledge)

he still said, entet by the narrow gate, and not by the wide

your language skills are lacking
Your understanding of the scriptures are lacking. The life that the narrow way leads to is not eternal life. You fail to understand the differences in words, according to their context, such as; life, Israel, world, death, salvation, etc.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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I don't put additional words in the middle of Scripture passages that I quote, so it's not the same way.
Which words did I add in the middle? My understanding of the whole context ? Can we change the meaning of a word by adding new meaning?
 
Jun 30, 2015
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Which words did I add in the middle? My understanding of the whole context ? Can we change the meaning of a word by adding new meaning?
Here is the passage you posted, verbatim, with your additions in red:

Deuteronomy 4 King James Version (KJV) Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.Ye shall not add unto the word (ONE) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it (One) , that ye may keep the commandments (MANY) of the Lord your God which I command you.

You added the words in brackets.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Here is the passage you posted, verbatim, with your additions in red:

Deuteronomy 4 King James Version (KJV) Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.Ye shall not add unto the word (ONE) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it (One) , that ye may keep the commandments (MANY) of the Lord your God which I command you.

You added the words in brackets.
Yes, it is why I put them in brackets to add my opinion using the singular and plural . like below as it would seem your understanding of the verse. Its what the spirit of lies does turn things upside down

.Ye shall not add unto the words (many ) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from (many) , that ye may keep the commandment (One) .

The warning at the end of cannon (Revelation) is in respect to the whole. They both work as one to protect the integrity of the word from the oral traditions of men .

Can we add meaning to a word that God has defined one way?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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When does God do the forming?
When the clay is on the wheel being fashioned into what the potter wants it to be, not when he's creating the clay from nothing.

Pharaoh was 'made' a vessel destined for destruction by God when he hardened his heart against the Lord. That was God's prerogative to do so. And He did that based on Pharaoh hardening his heart, and in His foreknowledge that he was going to do that. And that decision to reshape the clay and harden it into place can not be challenged or questioned, even by the clay itself--"Why did you harden me? You know I can't resist your will in this matter?" No, you can't Pharaoh. The Potter decides what he's going to do with the clay that can not be molded in his hands.

I apologize for the lengthy quote, but Jeremiah 18 helps us to see that explanation is more in line with what Paul is getting at:

"1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ 12“But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’" - Jeremiah 18:1-12


It isn't that the Potter purposely created the clay to be uncooperative and, therefore, destined to be molded and hardened into a vessel set apart for destruction. But rather the clay was uncooperative when molded and so the Potter, entirely at his own discretion, fashioned and hardened it in place into a vessel set apart for destruction, not for good. And He did that to show the glory of Him not doing that to other pieces of clay.
All the clay of the field in regard to the beast of the field is of the same hardness. It the Potter that can make it soft as in fleshly.

Spiritless, lifeless clay cannot be uncooperative anymore than cooperative without the breath of God . We neither wrestle against flesh and blood, ( bodies of clay) and in the same way are not defended by the things seen . Rather as apologist that defend the faith that works in us with us to defend us . . put on the whole armor of God. It protects the faith that protects us, as it is written. The gospel of grace
 
Jan 24, 2011
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We are not in galations we are in romans. Do you see the word galations in the OP?

We are not talking about salvation, we are talking about two groups of people
Are you kidding me? What is the book of Romans but a treatise by Paul on the theology of salvation! The whole book is about the background to salvation, Adam and the Fall, and Christ redeeming us as the second Adam, the progression of salvation, how to be saved, how to be sanctified, and live as a Christian.

Time to go back and read Romans again. You missed the whole purpose and revelation of Romans. To say nothing of the fact that Paul also wrote Galatians, as inspired by God, so it is totally relevant to compare Scripture with Scripture!
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Are you kidding me? What is the book of Romans but a treatise by Paul on the theology of salvation! The whole book is about the background to salvation, Adam and the Fall, and Christ redeeming us as the second Adam, the progression of salvation, how to be saved, how to be sanctified, and live as a Christian.

Time to go back and read Romans again. You missed the whole purpose and revelation of Romans. To say nothing of the fact that Paul also wrote Galatians, as inspired by God, so it is totally relevant to compare Scripture with Scripture!
Are you kidding me? Paul spent three chapters in romans talking about his true brothers, his blood brothers. And how God did not make a mistake choosing them, and how God is not done with them. And telling gentile believers not to puff themselves up and make the same mistake Isreal did (which if you look at the history of the church we did exactly that, and are doing it even today as we are just as anti Israel today as they were anti-Gentile back then) because God is not done with them.
it’s not about salvation, it’s about 2 groups of people. One group which is blinded in part but one day will repent and all be saved.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Your understanding of the scriptures are lacking. The life that the narrow way leads to is not eternal life. You fail to understand the differences in words, according to their context, such as; life, Israel, world, death, salvation, etc.
Your understanding of the scriptures are lacking. The life that the narrow way leads to is not eternal life. You fail to understand the differences in words, according to their context, such as; life, Israel, world, death, salvation, etc