Rom 9:22...an Oxymoron?

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Dec 12, 2013
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#82
So do you think some are born more wicked (sinful) than others?
No....all are born in sin with a sinful nature from Adam, but the wicked per se go astray from the womb...IE.......MANY are called, but few chosen...wicked = lost

MANY does not equal ALL
FEW of the MANY is an even less number

GOD does not CALL all even though salvation was open to ALL (the sins of the whole world covered by Christ and all things testify so they are without excuse)

For example....God said he raised Pharaoh UP for the express purpose of making his power known among men. God worked signs and wonders right in front of Pharaoh yet he hardened his heart against those signs and wonders and eventually GOD helped that process....

Pharaoh went astray from the womb and no matter what GOD did he would always be hardened to the truth and reject.......

Such are the wicked (lost) they go astray from the womb and will not come to the light regardless what God does.....He does NOT call ALL.....and even within the ranks of the MANY that he calls.....only a FEW will respond to the CALL.....and one thing that blows my mind with GOD.....

EVEN the CALL of GOD is irrevocable..........

Not sure if this explains me fully, and for the record I do not buy the Calvinistic view of scripture, but I do believe that God calls the saved from the womb while the lost will go astray from the womb......
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#84
The wicked go astray from the womb and God has prepared the wicked for the day of evil.
But wouldn’t that be us all, wicked evil sinners, And Christ comes to us and calls us, some of us recieve and some of us do not and remain wicked (many are called few are chosen)? And of course a few of would never come no matter what God did,
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#85
But wouldn’t that be us all, wicked evil sinners, And Christ comes to us and calls us, some of us recieve and some of us do not and remain wicked (many are called few are chosen)? And of course a few of would never come no matter what God did,
Read the context........my view is that it is a direct reference to the lost.......David covers both in the Psalms...

The definite article POINTS to what is KNOWN---> THE WICKED...........

Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

What about JOHN....he had the spirit from birth

The bible speaks to these truths......
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#86
Read the context........my view is that it is a direct reference to the lost.......David covers both in the Psalms...

The definite article POINTS to what is KNOWN---> THE WICKED...........
Just saying before I got saved, that wicked was me..which is why I am confused by what you say
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#87
Just saying before I got saved, that wicked was me..which is why I am confused by what you say
You missed the edit HAHAHH ......my point, David's point......the wicked (those that will be lost) immediately go astray from the womb and yet those that will be saved, God immediately begins to call them, groom them, and in my view, even though they have not yet trusted Christ are viewed under the banner of righteous......OUR problem is, and this is absolutely true, WE view everything from the linear aspect of time......and that is why we have a hard time understanding truths like this.....GOD sees the end from the beginning and in his eyes IT IS ALL already done.......the language and verb tenses support these truths......notice the following and this is why the distinction is made between THE WICKED and the RIGHTEOUS....HE ALREADY knows those who are his and even though TIME has not played out and we have NOT yet acknowledged JESUS by FAITH we have been saved from the foundation of the earth. <--and NOT in the Calvinistic way!

The definite article POINTS to what is KNOWN---> THE WICKED...........

Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

What about JOHN....he had the spirit from birth

The bible speaks to these truths......
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#88
You missed the edit HAHAHH ......my point, David's point......the wicked (those that will be lost) immediately go astray from the womb and yet those that will be saved, God immediately begins to call them, groom them, and in my view, even though they have not yet trusted Christ are viewed under the banner of righteous......OUR problem is, and this is absolutely true, WE view everything from the linear aspect of time......and that is why we have a hard time understanding truths like this.....GOD sees the end from the beginning and in his eyes IT IS ALL already done.......the language and verb tenses support these truths......notice the following and this is why the distinction is made between THE WICKED and the RIGHTEOUS....HE ALREADY knows those who are his and even though TIME has not played out and we have NOT yet acknowledged JESUS by FAITH we have been saved from the foundation of the earth. <--and NOT in the Calvinistic way!

The definite article POINTS to what is KNOWN---> THE WICKED...........

Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

What about JOHN....he had the spirit from birth

The bible speaks to these truths......
Yeah John had that

but I know a lot of people who prety evil up to the end.

i also know some who grew up in church who were not evil,outward, but later turned evil and dI’d some horrific things. One of which was deny Christ

maybe we see the same who knows..lol I may still not yet understand I can be that way..lol
 

NOV25

Active member
Nov 23, 2019
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#91
Romans 9:22 NASB
[22] What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

This almost comes across as an oxymoron. On the one hand it sounds like God has certain vessels that He has prepared for destruction. On the other hand the phrase 'endured with much patience' sounds as if things aren't set in concrete after all.

Anyone care to crack this one?
Paul is explaining the doctrine of election in these verses.
God has prepared some for wrath and some for mercy and He patiently allows the dishonorable to exist in order to make known the riches of His glory.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#92
Paul is explaining the doctrine of election in these verses.
God has prepared some for wrath and some for mercy and He patiently allows the dishonorable to exist in order to make known the riches of His glory.
How is it, on the one hand, He prepares some for wrath/destruction while at the same time endures with much patience those same vessels?

You say 'He patiently allows the dishonorable to exist', yet the text says 'He prepares those'.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#93
How is it, on the one hand, He prepares some for wrath/destruction while at the same time endures with much patience those same vessels?

You say 'He patiently allows the dishonorable to exist', yet the text says 'He prepares those'.
I think people forget in the OT, where the potter was making something, then the clay became marred in his hands, so he destroyed it, and started over with the same clay.
 

NOV25

Active member
Nov 23, 2019
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#94
How is it, on the one hand, He prepares some for wrath/destruction while at the same time endures with much patience those same vessels?
Not the same vessels.
According to the text He creates two kinds of people, one kind for salvation and one kind for destruction.

One kind destined for heaven and one kind destined for hell.

But you might ask, if some are destined for hell then how can God hold them accountable for their sin, since he created them that way? (Verse 19)

Who are you to question God? (Verse 20)

Start at Romans 9:6 and read through, Paul is very clear.

Forgive my paraphrase of scripture.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#95
Not the same vessels.
According to the text He creates two kinds of people, one kind for salvation and one kind for destruction.

One kind destined for heaven and one kind destined for hell.

But you might ask, if some are destined for hell then how can God hold them accountable for their sin, since he created them that way? (Verse 19)

Who are you to question God? (Verse 20)

Start at Romans 9:6 and read through, Paul is very clear.

Forgive my paraphrase of scripture.
This fatalistic view is dangerous.

why Do they always start at verse 6? Paul starts the 3 chapter content in verse 1
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#97
Ok start in verse one, doesn’t change what Paul is saying. 🤷‍♂️
well paul is not saying what you think he said.

He is not preaching fatalism..

He is answering a very sincere question the roman church were asking

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.

DID GOD make a MISTAKE? did his work come to no effect? Did God mess up choosing Israel

He spends most of chapter 9 answering those questions.

two apposing views

God choses who goes to heaven and hell

God chose Israel not based on their righteousness (as Israel claimed) he chose them before they were even born.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#98
well paul is not saying what you think he said.

He is not preaching fatalism..

He is answering a very sincere question the roman church were asking

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.

DID GOD make a MISTAKE? did his work come to no effect? Did God mess up choosing Israel

He spends most of chapter 9 answering those questions.

two apposing views

God choses who goes to heaven and hell

God chose Israel not based on their righteousness (as Israel claimed) he chose them before they were even born.
There is a difference between "the nation of Israel" and, "Jacob as Israel". Not all Israel is of Israel.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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But wouldn’t that be us all, wicked evil sinners, And Christ comes to us and calls us, some of us recieve and some of us do not and remain wicked (many are called few are chosen)? And of course a few of would never come no matter what God did,
Many are called to be his elect, but few of the elect are chosen to receive and understand the truth of Christ's doctrine. This harmonizes with Matt 7, the wide gate being all of the elect that do not have the full knowledge of the doctrine of Christ, and the strait gate being those of the elect that the Holy Spirit has revealed the truths of Christ's doctrine. Jesus said "I thank thee, Father, that thou hast hidden these truths from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes".