Sabbath

[john832]

As I've said repeatedly since I've been here, all commands in the Law have a physical and/or spiritual application. All all are applicable to us in some way. But all should be done in light of the mercy and grace God has shown us.

Do I physically stone others? Of course not. It is God who now doles out whatever consequences He deems necessary in light of Jesus' sacrifice. Is there a spiritual stoning of a sinful heart or mindset in me that needs to take place? Yes. That is the spiritual application of the Law.

Sure you do, so do I and all these guys who keep bringing the stoning thing up. They are just so unread in the Old Testament, they don't know how it was done.

Stoning was done in the Old Testament the same way capital punishment is carried out today, the duly authorized leaders have enabled it and the government carries it out, EXACTLY the way it was done by the Priests (the duly authorized leader) of Israel whose government was the Priesthood.

Yep, we carry out capital punishment today just as it was done in ancient Israel. Only the ignorant and unlearned speak of it as if it was a vigilante system.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I absolutely seek after the Spirit first and foremost. And the Holy Spirit leads me to obedience to God. And that often includes His Law.

Then you need to see, and start making a distinction between those who obey out of a false sense of security (akin to the Pharisees), and those who obey out of Love (the disciples, Paul, etc).

better yet. love, and you will fulfill the law

Using the law as an excuse to do something will not help you. I have never seen a church that teaches tradition be a living church, they have all been dead churches, arrogant churches, who do not know how to love,

their religion is in law. not in loving others.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you can't discern the context of each of the epistles and what specific questions and situations Paul was addressing, then we're not going to be on the same page in this discussion.

lol. your right.

Your doing what Paul warned against.

Thats all I need to see.

whats the context? going from one religion of tradition and ceremony to another one is dangerous.

by chapter 4 paul was speaking in general terms.

 

[KohenMatt]

And yet, you ARE, when you tell others that they should be doing this or that.

Simply say.... this is what I do........... PERIOD. If it is a matter God wants to deal with someone else on..... guess what? He is capable.

Do I think everyone should be obedient to God's word? Yes. I won't apologize for that. Am I going to get into specific people's lives to tell them that? Only when brought into it. If you choose to engage in that particular question and discussion with me, I'll address it.

God knows I need people in my life to tell me when I'm falling short and when I need correction. I personally welcome that input. I trust that God will confirm that in me and that it will bear witness in me when appropriate. If what I say doesn't bear witness with you, that is perfectly ok with me. That's why I've said said a couple of times, that is between that person and God, and In this discussion, between you and God.

However, I will continue to say to whomever that it is wise for us to be obedient to God's commands found in the Word. I try not to pick and choose based on my own feelings and opinions (although I am guilty of doing just that at times.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does your faith do this? Are you establishing the law by the faith you say you have? What you're describing of yourself seems to be very different than how Paul described his beliefs. Let's see how you interpret the scripture I presented in agreement with the scripture you presented. If there is a seeming contradiction, then something is not right in how we understand the truth. Describe the proper context of this verse please.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

yep we establish it, by faith and love, and the greatest of these is love.

faith is in things not seen, You can see the law. if you follow it, you are not walking in faith, because you see what you are following thats why you get a false hop. because it is not in love, it is in duty

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And when was the last time you either stoned your stubborn son, or helped in the stoning of another's? You're flailing in the wind here, trying to prove your obedience (really "a sacrifice" offering) and what He said He wants is mercy, instead.

he thinks we are neglecting Gods instructions.

When in reality we are doing what God wants us to do. LOVE OTHERS AS GOD LOVED US.

He wants us to worship in duty and tradition, then puff ourselves up as righteous people. When that same law he follows condemns him, because he cannot even keep it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One who reads the NT KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS.

When we love, forgive, serve others as God loved, forgave, served us. We are pleasing God. and doing what he commands.

Following some set of traditions and rules do nothing to please God. that is not heart worship. that is self worship.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Does your faith do this? Are you establishing the law by the faith you say you have? What you're describing of yourself seems to be very different than how Paul described his beliefs. Let's see how you interpret the scripture I presented in agreement with the scripture you presented. If there is a seeming contradiction, then something is not right in how we understand the truth. Describe the proper context of this verse please.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

Read Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

and then Acts 24:14. "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets"

These are Paul's words. The word "end" in Romans 10:4 "end" means (Strong's 5056) to set out for a definite point or goal; properly, the point aimed at as a limit. DONE and ACCOMPLISHED not negated. Jesus said that it was "finished" just before He died on the cross. This is in relation to the word "end." Strong's 5055 to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish.

Christ is the accomplishment of the law unto righteousness. He accomplished the goal set before Him

You are trying to twist the truth in the written Word while deflecting away from the whole context of the NT to promote legalism. Your cherry picking of verses is obvious. Why is it that we can pull dozens of verses out of the NT to support faith and not law keeping and you can only cherry pick a few verses total (out of context) to support legalism mixed with faith? That should be a big eye opener to you.......

Acts 24:5-9
5For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: 6Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law. 7But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands, 8Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him. 9And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so.

Acts 24:14 is where brother Paul is defending himself against Tertullus who had accused Paul Before Felix this is not Paul giving instructions through the majority of the NT letters, this is Paul defending himself saying he had not violated the law he was accused of violating. Why? we establish the law through the faith of Christ in Christ....... context is soooo important........ We uphold the law through faith in Christ without observing ordinances and that is what Paul is saying he is not promoting legalism as you think and you should know where you cherry picked the aforementioned verse from. Who you trying to deceive anyway?

 

[KohenMatt]

better yet. love, and you will fulfill the law

Using the law as an excuse to do something will not help you. I have never seen a church that teaches tradition be a living church, they have all been dead churches, arrogant churches, who do not know how to love,

their religion is in law. not in loving others.

Then I would encourage you to go to more churches that follow the Law to see if there is a Spirit of grace and love there. My guess, although I could be wrong, is you have not been to many Law-keeping churches

lol. your right.

Your doing what Paul warned against.

Thats all I need to see.

whats the context? going from one religion of tradition and ceremony to another one is dangerous.

by chapter 4 paul was speaking in general terms.

Again, I disagree. And I for one am OK with that, and can peacefully move on. I pray the same for you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then I would encourage you to go to more churches that follow the Law to see if there is a Spirit of grace and love there. My guess, although I could be wrong, is you have not been to many Law-keeping churches

Every church I went to from the time I was 5 until about 10 years ago was a law keeping church. (I was in the military and travelled alot. And tried many churches)

The first "LIVE " church I was ever involved in was the one I am in now. who focuses on loving and serving others. and not some law.

 

[KohenMatt]

He wants us to worship in duty and tradition, then puff ourselves up as righteous people. When that same law he follows condemns him, because he cannot even keep it.

Which sadly, is a complete lie. Any person who wishes to read through all of my posts will see that my obedience to the law is not intended to "puff myself up". I don't want people to worship in vain and repetitious duty and tradition. I want to worship God in Spirit and in truth, which means doing what He said.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I challenge you to find and quote a post where I have even come close to saying those things.[/FONT]

And I admit freely and openly that I cannot keep the whole Law perfectly. I fail at it all the time, and am thankful for the gracious forgiveness God grants me.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Christ is the accomplishment of the law unto righteousness. He accomplished the goal set before Him

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Must have forgot that last part huh?

 

[kennethcadwell]

The 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic laws do not apply under the new covenant !!!

The moral laws of God is what still applies, as the written ordinances were done away with.
You will not find one scripture in the NT that supports all 613 written ordinances are to be obeyed, and the epistle of James does not either.
Those who do not see the changes are overlooking many scriptures to support their view, as in the OT you had eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and even death for a death. Lord Jesus did away with that standard as He said you have heard, but I tell you not to.........

The last note I wanted to make was I saw a discussion on the Galatians and how two of you were debating about motive when it came to the law. One of you said there was a motive, and the other said there wasn't.
Well there was a motive involved, as their motive was to be justified by the law instead of being justified by Christ.

 

[Apostol2013]

Law and grace the unlearned all ways makes a mess I'll be helping you all in this bear with me help me God

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Just-me i will have to continue this discussion with you at another time, very busy on this side of the screen and will have to discuss this with you at another time thank you

 

[Biblelogic01]

Along with the stoning thing, now I apologize but I do not remember this word for word, but I heard this in a sermon from a Messianic Rabbi who spoke on stoning.

There are a few things that have to take place. 1 and most of all the only one who can authorize a stoning is the high priest, since there is no temple there is no high priest, and if I'm correct only the priests are the ones who can cast the stone (I'd have to go back over the sermon, and do a little more research on that), and again with there being no temple, and no Levitical priesthood around stoning is automatically ruled out. 2 they would have to hold what would be similar to what we have today, a court session. 3 there would have to be 2 witnesses to the event of what happenned, if there is no 2 witnesses the case is closed immediately. 4 during the "court" session the person that is on trial would have been asked, "did you know doing this would get you killed/stoned?" , and if the person on trial states, "no", then again he is given a warning and case immediately is closed.

So for there to be an actual stoning, there are a plethura of things would have to take place. And again, those are not the exact words in what was stated at this sermon, but it's pretty close and along the lines of what he was stating.

 

[KohenMatt]

Along with the stoning thing, now I apologize but I do not remember this word for word, but I heard this in a sermon from a Messianic Rabbi who spoke on stoning.

There are a few things that have to take place. 1 and most of all the only one who can authorize a stoning is the high priest, since there is no temple there is no high priest, and if I'm correct only the priests are the ones who can cast the stone (I'd have to go back over the sermon, and do a little more research on that), and again with there being no temple, and no Levitical priesthood around stoning is automatically ruled out. 2 they would have to hold what would be similar to what we have today, a court session. 3 there would have to be 2 witnesses to the event of what happenned, if there is no 2 witnesses the case is closed immediately. 4 during the "court" session the person that is on trial would have been asked, "did you know doing this would get you killed/stoned?" , and if the person on trial states, "no", then again he is given a warning and case immediately is closed.

So for there to be an actual stoning, there are a plethura of things would have to take place. And again, those are not the exact words in what was stated at this sermon, but it's pretty close and along the lines of what he was stating.

Very good. And I would add, who is our High Priest? Jesus. Did He deal with the sin worthy of stoning? Yes.

Therefore, no need to stone today.

 

[just-me]

You are trying to twist the truth in the written Word while deflecting away from the whole context of the NT to promote legalism. Your cherry picking of verses is obvious. Why is it that we can pull dozens of verses out of the NT to support faith and not law keeping and you can only cherry pick a few verses total (out of context) to support legalism mixed with faith? That should be a big eye opener to you.......

Acts 24:5-9
5For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: 6Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law. 7But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands, 8Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him. 9And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so.

Acts 24:14 is where brother Paul is defending himself against Tertullus who had accused Paul Before Felix this is not Paul giving instructions through the majority of the NT letters, this is Paul defending himself saying he had not violated the law he was accused of violating. Why? we establish the law through the faith of Christ in Christ....... context is soooo important........ We uphold the law through faith in Christ without observing ordinances and that is what Paul is saying he is not promoting legalism as you think and you should know where you cherry picked the aforementioned verse from. Who you trying to deceive anyway?

Me promoting legalism is your assumption. I agree with your last explanation. "Paul is saying he is not promoting legalism". I totally agree!!!! Therefore, if Paul believed all things that are written in the law and the prophets also agree with the words of Jesus as He said....

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 4:4 and Matthew 5:18)

As we know heaven and earth are still here.

The law must be seen with spiritual eyes not with the fleshly understanding of man as Paul described and disagreed with. If we fight against the truth written in the law (not man's interpretation minus faith) then we are showing ourselves, to all who understand this truth, that we are NOT led by the Spirit and may even be found as not even having the indwelling Holy Spirit at all.

Romans 8:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 7:12-14
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We must never determine that the law is a bad thing and an adversary of grace and faith. All of those things (in truth) come from the One and only truth, for Jesus said He is the TRUTH. If Jesus created all things as Colossians chapter 1 says, He is also the same One that gave Moses the law.

 

[michael56]

. Describe the proper context of this verse please.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

If you want to do that, you have to back up to verse 19 and carry on from there.
Paul has been stressing the law makes us conscious of our sin(20)
He then goes on to say the Christian has a righteousness apart from observing the law. This means you cannot be condemned for your imperfections concerning the law(which is your sin of course) Paul stresses the Christian is not justified by observing the law. There can be no boasting for they have not earned acceptance by observing the law.
Now what would some of his readers of thought at his words? They would have thought they could ignore the law and live as they like(as some do today when grace is stressed) In order to correct those under such a false assumption, Paul gives them his core message of victory over sin:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law

Do you tell people sin shall not be their master for they cannot be condemned for their imperfections where the law is concerned? That is the central message.
Paul obviously does not mean the whole law will be upheld, for he did not believe Gentile Christians were asked to observe the whole law did he

 

[seed_time_harvest]

why would anyone place a day or walk before the work of God? The first commandment "you shall love the Lord your God and place no other Gods before me" why do we want to put pour works before Him?

Hmmm, so obedience to God is placing something before Him? Strange way of looking at it.

To be obedient to the word of God does not make you legalistic

It is legalistic if you are being obedient and you have not been reborn yet.
I'm talking about under the new covenant.