Sabbath

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Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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sure let's consider Abel and Noah and Abraham. we don't know much about Abel but we do have records of both Noah and Abraham sinning and falling short of the glory of God. The Judgment of God is that sin brings death. If you sin, you die.

I don't know how people knew this. but the Bible says they all did.

the people that have the law, the Israelites, also learn about God's ways from the law. But everyone has the revelation of God that he has presented in creation. that's what had just been talked about earlier in chapter one.

again I believe the rest of your post is based upon a misunderstanding of who Paul is talking about in Romans chapter 1. So it makes sense to resolve chapter 1 before we move on, in my opinion.
sure let's consider Abel and Noah and Abraham. we don't know much about Abel but we do have records of both Noah and Abraham sinning and falling short of the glory of God. The Judgment of God is that sin brings death. If you sin, you die.

I don't know how people knew this. but the Bible says they all did.

the people that have the law, the Israelites, also learn about God's ways from the law. But everyone has the revelation of God that he has presented in creation. that's what had just been talked about earlier in chapter one.

again I believe the rest of your post is based upon a misunderstanding of who Paul is talking about in Romans chapter 1. So it makes sense to resolve chapter 1 before we move on, in my opinion.
Well you are all set then Dan.

Good for you.
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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First thing Grandpa I want to thank you for your consideration and time it took to respond.

You're making reference to "rest" in a couple of your responses. What is the "rest" of Messiah other than the Sabbath days?
Here is a scripture that proves that you can "do" the word or commandments of the Father.
"It is not in heaven, that you would need to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?”And it is not beyond the sea, that you would need to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it."" Due 30:12-14
Before it is said, "this is old testament" I don't know if you would however someone may.

"But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down)
or, ‘Who will descend into the Abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
When one consider the word play there it gets really interesting.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I disagree. the Deeds of the law are clearly actions performed because they are prescribed by Commandments in the law. sacrifices regarding sin offerings are certainly included, but the Deeds of the law refers to so much more.
amen. this is a central and glaring fallacy in study dudes doctrine, resting on an unjustifiable private redefinition of the words of the text. this argument is destroyed in many ways through the scripture, one of which being circumcision, a central theme in the first few chapters or Romans : it is not a Levitical rite for atonement but a sign of a covenant and it precedes the Law, takes precedent in the law over sabbath observance, yet is not required of believers as becometh saints. likewise dietary laws. therefore more than an artificially separated subset of atonement commands in the Law are removed as a basis of judgement for the believer.
furthermore scripture says of the whole Law, "do" all these things and you will live. not speaking of only the sacrifices for sin, but all the commands and statutes and judgements, Paul quotes this and contrasts it with what he calls a law of faith, which in turn does not say "do and live" but believe, and believing, you shall have life, just as the blessed Savior says of the gift He gives by faith. it is so shown false that the Law of Moses is broken into 'faith works of law' and 'atonement works of law' - justification is not by works of faith ((so called in his false religion)) but by faith in the Son of God who has performed the only work that justifies.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Now, if he hadn't obeyed the first commandment of God, would God have given him the specific promise to believe in? I don't know.
is it relevant here that even though Moses struck the rock twice instead of speaking to it, water still came out?
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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When one consider the word play there it gets really interesting.
Its really not that complicated. A person really has to twist scripture to continue to work at the law and call themselves Christian.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

What was the yoke that neither the disciples nor their fathers were able to bear? The law of Moses.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Lord Jesus gives us rest from the yoke that we are not able to bear, the law of Moses.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(those who labour and are heavy laden by their work at the law of Moses, the 10 commandments)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(those who have faith and are learning of Christ)

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(those who have come to Christ and have received Rest)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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What is the "rest" of Messiah other than the Sabbath days
remember that the scripture says specifically that the sabbaths - all of them - are a shadow, not the substance. and the Substance has been revealed.
therefore it is false to say that His rest is the physical ritual act of sabbath observance, likewise false to call the 7th day itself His rest, just as much as it is false to understand circumcision as the physical act even though the physical act was commanded to a people at a time. the intent of the Law is spiritual not physical: the Law is not of faith.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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My main problem is that mainstream Christianity has gotten fixated on secular days in place of the scriptures which point to the feast days of Messiah. A major point of contention between a person who guards Sabbath and a person who says Messiah is our rest.
lol at the idea that it is the man who says Christ is the Great Sabbath Rest being the one obsessed with days.

o the irony
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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lol at the idea that it is the man who says Christ is the Great Sabbath Rest being the one obsessed with days.

o the irony
A person who "guards" sabbath and a person who says Messiah is our rest...

All this is just separating those who continue to work at the law and those who have received Rest.

Galatians 3:10-12
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If you were "guarding" sabbath because the law says so wouldn't these scriptures give you pause???

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If a person says they Rest in the Lord Jesus Christ then who, exactly, is the one that condemns them for this???

The person who continues to work at the law and think that makes them righteous can try to condemn a person who Rests in Christ but it just shows their lack of wisdom and knowledge in both the Lord Jesus Christ and the law.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Jeremiah 6:16-17, “Thus said יהוה, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.” But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to a voice of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…

Luke 16:16-17, “The Torah and the prophets are until Yoḥanan. Since then the reign of YHWH is being announced, and everyone is doing violence upon it. (Zep 3:4) And it is easier for the heaven and the earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Torah to fail.”
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Jeremiah 6:16-17, “Thus said יהוה, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.” But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to a voice of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…

Luke 16:16-17, “The Torah and the prophets are until Yoḥanan. Since then the reign of YHWH is being announced, and everyone is doing violence upon it. (Zep 3:4) And it is easier for the heaven and the earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Torah to fail.”
Listen = Shema (Heb.) = "hear AND obey" = "believe AND do"

Luke 16:31
"But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, not even if someone rises from the dead will they be persuaded."
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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Listen = Shema (Heb.) = "hear AND obey" = "believe AND do"

Luke 16:31
"But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, not even if someone rises from the dead will they be persuaded."
Seems "NT" writers had the same view here:

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Hebrews 10:1
the Law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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All the moadim look forward to YHWH plan, the 7th day Sabbath looks forward to the 1,000 reign of Messiah spoken of in Revelation...

Luke 24:44-46, “And He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all have to be fulfilled that were written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day.”

There are 2 "it is done" statements...

Fulfilled already
John 19:30, “So when יהושע took the sour wine He said, “It is done!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

Fulfilled already
- To be fulfilled in the future

1. Passover/First-fruits – Yahshua's Sacrifice(Passover), burial and resurrection (First Fruits – presenting Himself to YHWH)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread – Removal of sin by Yahshua's perfect work as the Passover Sacrifice
3. Feast of Weeks – The blessing Holy Spirit of YHWH, coming into our lives stronger than ever

4. Feast of Trumpets – Yahshua's return and gathering of the Saints
5. Day of Atonement – Yahshua leads the army of YHWH to destroy evil rulers of this world and satan is chained for 1,000 years
6. Feast of Tabernacles – Yahshua dwells on earth for 1,000 years teaching truth and righteousness
7. The Last Great Day – satan is loosed and swiftly destroyed, the Kingdom of YHWH reigns forever


To be fulfilled in the future

Revelation 21:4-8, “And Yah shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying. And there shall be no more pain, for the former matters have passed away. And He who was sitting on the throne said, “See, I make all matters new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and trustworthy. And He said to me, “It is done! I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I shall give of the fountain of the water of life without payment. The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Strength and he shall be My son. But as for the cowardly, and untrustworthy, and abominable, and murderers, and those who whore, and drug sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the false, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Dan 7:25...
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Hebrews 10:1 (complete verse)
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices lamb_230587474_250.jpg which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


Luke 16:16-17 (From the Master - NLT)
16 “Until John the Baptist, the (1) law of Moses and the (2) messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the (3) Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is eager to get in. But that doesn’t mean that (1) the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God’s law to be overturned.


Luke 16:27-31 (parenthesis added; in context of verse 16-17 - NLT)
“Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him (Lazarus) to my father’s home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’

“But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’

“The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins (i.e.breaking Yah's law) and turn to God.’

"But Abraham (the father of faith) said, 'If they won't listen to Moses (the giver of the law) and the prophets (the preachers of repentance back to the law), not even if someone rises from the dead (like Lazarus or Christ himself giving this lesson) will they be persuaded (to obey the law)."
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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is it relevant here that even though Moses struck the rock twice instead of speaking to it, water still came out?
possibly, of course one can speculate endlessly about what ifs. we know that Romans chapter 4 ends this way

The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+4&version=NIV
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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Yes, thank you! It all becomes so clear if you put it in Modern everyday English.
Just to be clear, I don't agree with your modern understanding of Paul or the Bible in general at all. And I believe your preaching, though popular in modern day religions, does not represent the message of the Scriptures.

I just realize after pages of going in circles, that you have been convinced and nothing the scriptures say will change this. And God's Word is all I trust and all that I have to go by. So it is a vanity to continue. As it is written:

Luke 16:
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Mat 11:27-30, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father. And no one fully knows the Son except the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father, except the Son and those whom YHWH wills the Son to reveal. Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light"

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

Jeremiah 6:16-17, “Thus said יהוה, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves.” But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’ “And I raised up watchmen over you, and said, ‘Listen to a voice of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We do not listen.’

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…

Luke 16:16-17, “The Torah and the prophets are until Yoḥanan. Since then the reign of YHWH is being announced, and everyone is doing violence upon it. (Zep 3:4) And it is easier for the heaven and the earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Torah to fail.”
I believe God's name as YHWH does not occur in the New Testament.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Just to be clear, I don't agree with your modern understanding of Paul or the Bible in general at all. And I believe your preaching, though popular in modern day religions, does not represent the message of the Scriptures.

I just realize after pages of going in circles, that you have been convinced and nothing the scriptures say will change this. And God's Word is all I trust and all that I have to go by. So it is a vanity to continue. As it is written:

Luke 16:
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
my understanding of Paul is based on what he wrote. it's amazing what he actually says when you translated into modern, readable English.

what I say very clearly matches up with the scriptures.

I have been convinced by God's word. I hear Moses and the prophets and the apostles.

and here's what the Bible says in modern, readable English
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+4&version=NIV
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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remember that the scripture says specifically that the sabbaths - all of them - are a shadow, not the substance. and the Substance has been revealed.
therefore it is false to say that His rest is the physical ritual act of sabbath observance, likewise false to call the 7th day itself His rest, just as much as it is false to understand circumcision as the physical act even though the physical act was commanded to a people at a time. the intent of the Law is spiritual not physical: the Law is not of faith.
What Law is not of Faith?

"I am the Lord your God, thou shall have no other god's before me"?

or


"if you sin, take your best goat to a Levite Priest and he will kill the goat and perform ceremoniel "Works of the Law" to atone for your sin"
There are some who understand when the SEED came, the Priesthood and the "works therein" changed as prophesied in the Law and Prophet's. But the sovereignty and judgment of the Most Holy didn't change. Only in the hearts of men.

Is. 56:
1 Thus saith the LORD, (Word which became Flesh) Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

This is how the Word which became Flesh spoke of His Holy Sabbath that He said was made for man.

Is. 58:
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

But of the "Works of the Law" for justification of sins Paul spoke of in Romans and Galatians, this same Word said this:

1 Sam. 15:
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Ex. 20:
2 I am the LORD thy God, (Word which became Flesh) which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, (Sin) out of the house of bondage. (deception)
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

But they said, We will not walk therein.

As it is to this day.