sabbath

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oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
11,245
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113
#41
GEN. 26:5.
(Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My Commandments, My statutes, and My laws.)

ROMANS 5:13.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1JOHN 3:4.
Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROMANS 2:13.
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

PS. 119:89.
LAMED. For ever, O LORD, Thy Word is settled in heaven.

God's Word is Eternal, therefore His Laws are ETERNAL...

(sin, transgression of the Law, is mentioned (7) times in Genesis) -
Joseph is a good example, he knew that he should not commit 'adultery' -
Cain knew that he shouldn't commit 'murder', but he did it anyway,
so, even though sin was not imputed, death reigned -
as it is written; The wages of sin is death,
the point is, even though God's Law was not written down at that time,
PS. 119:160.
Thy Word is true from the beginning: and every one of Thy righteous judgments endures for ever.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,129
4,522
113
#42
We can be quite sure that the Israelites were not keeping the Sabbath during the enslavement in Egypt. And no mention of law or Sabbaths in connection with Jacob, Joseph and a lot of other notable people, including Abraham.
The oralo tradition was from Adam until Noah, then from Noah until the Torah. How did you come by knowing that the Children of Israel did not observe the Sabbath even under bondage. Of course if told to work they had to, but they knew to cry out to God. Also how do you say Abraham did not observe the Sabbath_ Where are you getting gyour information......…._ It is not fromt he Word. When the Torah was written down the knowledge was and is from God and from th eoral traqdidtion...

I will not be so bold as to say I know certain aspects within the boundaries of these thoughts, but you have no way of knowing since the creation story and account has always been availed dto those who believe.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,296
10,048
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55
#43
Which is probably why God said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
Who was God writing to in Exodus 20? The Church/the body of Christ or Israel? 1 And God spoke all these words, saying: 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,709
2,652
113
#44
GEN. 26:5.
(Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My Commandments, My statutes, and My laws.)

ROMANS 5:13.
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1JOHN 3:4.
Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ROMANS 2:13.
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

PS. 119:89.
LAMED. For ever, O LORD, Thy Word is settled in heaven.

God's Word is Eternal, therefore His Laws are ETERNAL...

(sin, transgression of the Law, is mentioned (7) times in Genesis) -
Joseph is a good example, he knew that he should not commit 'adultery' -
Cain knew that he shouldn't commit 'murder', but he did it anyway,
so, even though sin was not imputed, death reigned -
as it is written; The wages of sin is death,
the point is, even though God's Law was not written down at that time,
PS. 119:160.
Thy Word is true from the beginning: and every one of Thy righteous judgments endures for ever.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Galatians 3:10-12
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


I suppose it is plain to see which one you have placed yourself under. If you look back to the law to obey it in your own understanding then you have placed yourself under law.

If you have come to Christ and taken His Yoke and Learned of Him and received His Rest then you are under Grace.


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
11,245
2,905
113
#45
OMG,
if I, we, were not 'obeying' our Heavenly Father's Laws today, we would be in 'lock-up-jail' -
grace would not save us from our (dis-obedience), - 'transgressions in our world have
consequences, just as David's child 'died'...
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,709
2,652
113
#46
OMG,
if I, we, were not 'obeying' our Heavenly Father's Laws today, we would be in 'lock-up-jail' -
grace would not save us from our (dis-obedience), - 'transgressions in our world have
consequences, just as David's child 'died'...
Absolutely Untrue.

How many people are locked up for having anger in their hearts toward people? First you would have to discern all the people who had anger in their hearts.

How many people are locked up for lusting after a woman who isn't their wife/husband?

Just with those two it would be 98% of the population locked up. (just guessing, maybe only 97%...)

Grace DOES Save us from our disobedience because the heart is desperately wicked, the flesh wants what it wants, and people are exceedingly dumb.

IF it weren't for Grace that 98% number would be 100%. Transgression DOES have consequences so you better start running for Grace while it is still available.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
7,451
4,463
113
#47
The oralo tradition was from Adam until Noah, then from Noah until the Torah. How did you come by knowing that the Children of Israel did not observe the Sabbath even under bondage. Of course if told to work they had to, but they knew to cry out to God. Also how do you say Abraham did not observe the Sabbath_ Where are you getting gyour information......…._ It is not fromt he Word. When the Torah was written down the knowledge was and is from God and from th eoral traqdidtion...

I will not be so bold as to say I know certain aspects within the boundaries of these thoughts, but you have no way of knowing since the creation story and account has always been availed dto those who believe.
Your entire position runs contrary to Pauls unequivocal and continual teachings on the matter of law keeping.
Sounds like you invented a different gospel all on your own.

Peter (Cephas) Opposed by Paul

11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

15“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
11,245
2,905
113
#48
'Great PEACE have they that Love Thy Law,
and Nothing shall offend them'...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,296
10,048
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#49
Since the old covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. The old covenant has been made obsolete to "put legally into place" the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13).

The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He has loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3
 
Sep 25, 2018
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#50
why is the sabbath not been kept by all Christians? I need guidance please
As far as I can see in the Bible, the 7th-day Sabbath is an everlasting part of God's law.

It was created, blessed and sanctified by God at Creation, before there were Jews (Genesis 2:2, 3)

God reestablished Sabbath as His holy day before Mt. Sinai, when He sent manna and told the Israelites not to gather it on Sabbath (Ex. 16:23-26).

God commanded us to "remember" the 7th-day Sabbath, which is right in the middle of the other commandments that we still keep (having no other gods, not taking the Lord's name in vain, etc.). Why should the Sabbath be for the Jews when the other commandments still apply today?

Jesus kept the Sabbath, which He said was for mankind (Mark 2:27), not Jews only.

The disciples kept the Sabbath when Jesus died "according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56), and Jesus said that He never came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. He came not to "destroy but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17-18). Whenever He spoke about the Sabbath, He only brought out its true meaning; He never diminished or abolished it.

And after His death and ascension, the disciples still kept Sabbath (Acts 13:42-44). There is never a case where they described changing Sabbath worship to Sunday worship.

The Jewish laws that were fulfilled in Jesus (such as the sacrificial system) have lost their significance apart from their pointing forward to Jesus. But the Sabbath has always been a part of God's plan for humanity. Even in the new earth, God predicts His people keeping Sabbath (Isaiah 66:22, 23). And in Revelation, John writes that the last generation of saints will be keeping the Ten Commandments (Rev. 14:12). Not some of them, or a different version of them, but all of them.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
7,451
4,463
113
#51
As far as I can see in the Bible, the 7th-day Sabbath is an everlasting part of God's law.

It was created, blessed and sanctified by God at Creation, before there were Jews (Genesis 2:2, 3)

God reestablished Sabbath as His holy day before Mt. Sinai, when He sent manna and told the Israelites not to gather it on Sabbath (Ex. 16:23-26).

God commanded us to "remember" the 7th-day Sabbath, which is right in the middle of the other commandments that we still keep (having no other gods, not taking the Lord's name in vain, etc.). Why should the Sabbath be for the Jews when the other commandments still apply today?

Jesus kept the Sabbath, which He said was for mankind (Mark 2:27), not Jews only.

The disciples kept the Sabbath when Jesus died "according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56), and Jesus said that He never came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. He came not to "destroy but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17-18). Whenever He spoke about the Sabbath, He only brought out its true meaning; He never diminished or abolished it.

And after His death and ascension, the disciples still kept Sabbath (Acts 13:42-44). There is never a case where they described changing Sabbath worship to Sunday worship.

The Jewish laws that were fulfilled in Jesus (such as the sacrificial system) have lost their significance apart from their pointing forward to Jesus. But the Sabbath has always been a part of God's plan for humanity. Even in the new earth, God predicts His people keeping Sabbath (Isaiah 66:22, 23). And in Revelation, John writes that the last generation of saints will be keeping the Ten Commandments (Rev. 14:12). Not some of them, or a different version of them, but all of them.
You are faced with an insurmountable problem: there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the nascent NT Church did not maintain the seventh day Sabbath. On the contrary, worship occurred on Sunday from what evidence is available. Not to mention the comprehensive warnings against the Judaizers.
 
Sep 25, 2018
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#52
You are faced with an insurmountable problem: there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the nascent NT Church did not maintain the seventh day Sabbath. On the contrary, worship occurred on Sunday from what evidence is available. Not to mention the comprehensive warnings against the Judaizers.
I agree, the church didn't maintain the 7th-day Sabbath after a period of time, and Emperor Constantine's edict in 321 AD made it clear that the "venerable day of the Sun" was regarded as the new day of worship (quote from Codex Justinianus, lib.3 tit. 12, 3). But where does Jesus (or any disciple) say that Christians should dismiss the Sabbath that God sanctified at Creation, and choose to replace it with Sunday? Where does the Bible say that the law changed?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
7,451
4,463
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#53
I agree, the church didn't maintain the 7th-day Sabbath after a period of time, and Emperor Constantine's edict in 321 AD made it clear that the "venerable day of the Sun" was regarded as the new day of worship (quote from Codex Justinianus, lib.3 tit. 12, 3). But where does Jesus (or any disciple) say that Christians should dismiss the Sabbath that God sanctified at Creation, and choose to replace it with Sunday? Where does the Bible say that the law changed?
Nope. Worshipping on the Lord's day occurred more or less immediately...

"Scripture reports that the New Testament church gathered to worship on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2; Rev. 1:10). But Scripture doesn’t use the word Sunday, a name associated with sun worship (12–14). Instead, the early church spoke of Sunday as the first day of the week, or the first day from the Sabbath ."
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
16,523
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#54
I agree, the church didn't maintain the 7th-day Sabbath after a period of time, and Emperor Constantine's edict in 321 AD made it clear that the "venerable day of the Sun" was regarded as the new day of worship (quote from Codex Justinianus, lib.3 tit. 12, 3). But where does Jesus (or any disciple) say that Christians should dismiss the Sabbath that God sanctified at Creation, and choose to replace it with Sunday? Where does the Bible say that the law changed?
This is a red herring, not a sound argument. What Constantine did is irrelevant. He had no authority to change anything for the Church.

Assembling for worship (or not) on a particular day is not a Sabbath issue. It doesn't matter what day you choose for worship, and indeed, worship is an appropriate activity any day of the week. The Scriptures have no prescription for which day Christian assembly should take place. Romans 14:5 makes it clear:

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
7,451
4,463
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#55
I agree, the church didn't maintain the 7th-day Sabbath after a period of time, and Emperor Constantine's edict in 321 AD made it clear that the "venerable day of the Sun" was regarded as the new day of worship (quote from Codex Justinianus, lib.3 tit. 12, 3). But where does Jesus (or any disciple) say that Christians should dismiss the Sabbath that God sanctified at Creation, and choose to replace it with Sunday? Where does the Bible say that the law changed?
https://pastorhistorian.com/2005/09...church-fathers-on-the-sabbathlords-day-issue/
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,004
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#56
Who was God writing to in Exodus 20? The Church/the body of Christ or Israel? 1 And God spoke all these words, saying: 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
His people past, present and future. The 10 Commandments are for everyone unless you want to go to jail for some of them.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,004
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#57
I just want to make it clear.... When I speak of the law I am talking about the 10 Commandments written in stone with God's own finger and that he spoke from Mt. Sinai.

When I see you write and talk about the law most of you include all hundreds of instructions that God gave Moses on the Mountain.

So please don't talk for me assuming I am saying everyone has to keep the bunches of laws when I personally am only speaking of the 10.

Thank you this public service announcement is now concluded.

I don't care how far you walk or if you drive your car on Sabbath day or if you light a fire, turn on a light.... etc...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,129
4,522
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#58
All of the Ten are partial to complete representations of the love we are supposed to convey in our being because of the Love we have received in Jesus, Yeshua. So as Miss Pfeiffer would say, "Where's the beef?"
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,296
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#59
His people past, present and future. The 10 Commandments are for everyone unless you want to go to jail for some of them.
Exodus 20:2 - “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. So His people (Jew and Gentile) past, present and future were brought out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage? So the Lord made this covenant with His people past, present and future and not just Israel? (Deuteronomy 5:1-15) The Lord did not make this covenant (agreement, treaty] with our fathers (ancestors) but he made it with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,296
10,048
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#60
I just want to make it clear.... When I speak of the law I am talking about the 10 Commandments written in stone with God's own finger and that he spoke from Mt. Sinai.

When I see you write and talk about the law most of you include all hundreds of instructions that God gave Moses on the Mountain.

So please don't talk for me assuming I am saying everyone has to keep the bunches of laws when I personally am only speaking of the 10.

Thank you this public service announcement is now concluded.
2 Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter. *Also see post #49. We must not mix the old covenant with the new covenant.

I don't care how far you walk or if you drive your car on Sabbath day or if you light a fire, turn on a light.... etc...
Yet along with Sabbath day observance came the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) so no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19). Also, according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. *How can someone truly keep the Sabbath day according to these old testament scriptures when he only keeps part of it?