SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

eternally-gratefull · Apr 15, 2017

Then do you think you will become sinless? Will you become perfect? Will you make it to the point that you no longer are in need of grace, because you have become so sonless perfect. That you can stand on your own?

Because to me, that is where you would be.

If you understand, you will still sin,, Then you understand why I am saying what I am saying.

I am not saying I will struggle in every area of my life and continue to live like the world..

I am saying, I will never be perfect. and will ever be too proud to think I am.. So I must be honest, and admit, there are still areas of my life I struggle with, Or else I would be perfect.

I hope you understand

I am not saying you are claiming to be sinless, I am saying,, if what you say is true, you would have to be sinless.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 15, 2017

I have to get home get ready for easter. so may not answer you right away if you respond,, Thanks for tryign to understand in a non judgmental way.

Yahshua · Apr 15, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

Numbers 14:11
The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?

God wants it so badly for his children, whom he loves so must, to remain in trust of him. So badly...

When Christ was walking on water he told Peter to step out of the boat on faith, and Peter did. And in that initial moment he showed faith, and so a mere man - who was not God - walked on water.

......But then Peter's faith wavered, and as soon as it did he began to sink. He had the initial faith to so something no one man has ever done. But he didn't remain in faith to maintain it.

It's not just about having faith initially, we must remain in faith.

Desertsrose · Apr 15, 2017

Depleted said:

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you. I'm merely coming at this from a different perspective enough that you get to decide if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you.

I hate to go all Maxwell like on you, (Maxwell -- one of the guys who comes on here to debate by starting with asking about definitions. lol), but what do you mean by salvation? Many people think it is everything about being born-again, but it is and it isn't. There's an order to it. Things have to happen or it isn't "salvation."

What I believe is this: (link explains overall where I'm coming from, if you've never heard of this before. Use, if needed.)
1. Election (or predestination. Either way, God chooses.)
2. Atonement (what Jesus did on that cross for whosoever God chooses)
3. God's calling (that time when God gives you the tug -- that whatever-it-is when we first think "maybe I should consider this.")
4. Inward calling (that moment when we hit, "Oh yeah! Need you God" moment.)
5. Regeneration. (The big TaDa! When God brings us new life and changes us into his people. Usually hits like a big surprise.

)
6. Conversion. (What you call "faith," but also when we need to repent. The moment when we realize who we were and cannot be that anymore.)
7. Justification. (When what Jesus did on that cross is accepted for each of us individually. When his punishment propitiates God's wrath on us. When God sees Jesus in us, instead of us in us.)
8. Sanctification. (What we've been doing ever since. A combination of God setting us apart and drawing us to do what he wants us to do and we getting the heart to want to relearn everything to be more like him. This is the life-long part of salvation. Where we put into practice what God is already changing us into. He's getting us ready to be who he always planned us to be -- a people set apart to glorify him eternally.)
9. Glorification. (What we will become for next life. Where we're going in sanctification.)

So, with that in mind, got to say, yes, there are conditions. If you think of it, the biggest condition -- Jesus dying on that cross -- was met by God doing it all.

The same thing for the first five on that list. No doubt all of us see only God in those things and none of us, (well, unless you refuse election, but now that I get that, I've forgotten how people can refuse that, so don't know how they can think all this out without that anymore. Not saying anything against those who don't believe in election. It's more like knowing 1 and 1 equals 2 for so long, I can no longer remember what ever made me think it was another answer, other than I do remember when that was new to me too), but I see God doing the saving throughout all 9 steps.

The only part I have in it is # 8 (sanctification.) And # 8 showed well on Jonah. He could choose to not-follow God all he wanted, but in the end he really never had any other choice. I've gone by fish stomach much of my Christian life. (Fighting God's direction tooth and nail.) It never worked out for me. And ends up when I don't fight it, I like the direction he's taking me, so I'm willing to follow more often. (More often. Not to be confused with always.) A little me and a lot of God in the 8th part.

Sooo, now that I showed you what I think coming at this from a completely different direction, I have to ask, (because I am infinitely nosy), do we agree or disagree? And did I answer what to tell the guy who is asking about conditions required?

Hi Depleted,

Well, since you asked so nicely, no - we're not in agreement. Thanks for taking the time to answer, but I try to stay away from being an ism.

I may fall into one of those isms - I don't know, but I try to stay away from being one because I like to read and study the word and form my belief system on how the Lord leads me personally without going to a belief system first.

So I hear from all sorts of points of view. I've been in the Baptist church, Charismatic, Word of Faith, Non-denominational, Reformed, etc.

So I take what I hear like I'm sure most do and see what scripture says. It's like Paul when he said the bereans had great character because they checked out the scriptures to see if what Paul said was true or not true. When I listen to the radio, I listen to reformed, charismatic (not word of faith type), probably arminian because they don't sound reformed.

Depleted · Apr 15, 2017

Desertsrose said:

Hi Depleted,

Well, since you asked so nicely, no - we're not in agreement. Thanks for taking the time to answer, but I try to stay away from being an ism.

I may fall into one of those isms - I don't know, but I try to stay away from being one because I like to read and study the word and form my belief system on how the Lord leads me personally without going to a belief system first.

So I hear from all sorts of points of view. I've been in the Baptist church, Charismatic, Word of Faith, Non-denominational, Reformed, etc.

So I take what I hear like I'm sure most do and see what scripture says. It's like Paul when he said the bereans had great character because they checked out the scriptures to see if what Paul said was true or not true. When I listen to the radio, I listen to reformed, charismatic (not word of faith type), probably arminian because they don't sound reformed.

That's okay. Not like having the exact right belief saves us either. I really didn't know if we were agreeing or not.

Depleted · Apr 15, 2017

Yahshua said:

Numbers 14:11
The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?

God wants it so badly for his children, whom he loves so must, to remain in trust of him. So badly...

When Christ was walking on water he told Peter to step out of the boat on faith, and Peter did. And in that initial moment he showed faith, and so a mere man - who was not God - walked on water.

......But then Peter's faith wavered, and as soon as it did he began to sink. He had the initial faith to so something no one man has ever done. But he didn't remain in faith to maintain it.

It's not just about having faith initially, we must remain in faith.

And God wanted Peter to remain in faith, so God made sure Peter remained in faith.

PeterJens · Apr 15, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

This is such a legalists definition of sin and the problem with our relationship with
Christ. We are in Christ and He is in us.

There is never a point where we do not need Him, because love is about sharing and
being in mutual need and service.

What is being described by EG is weakness defines need rather than service and sharing
defines love. So one never arrives or there is never a lack of need or that we would desire
there not to be a point of arrival.

To know this reality is to know how to love and be loved. Why should it be anything less?

Sully · Apr 15, 2017

You speak a lot about communication and the lack thereof. I'm not sure if you have comprehension issues or you are intentionally trying to be confused in your posts. What you conveyed above is totally unrelated to the quote by eg in your post.

Stunnedbygrace · Apr 15, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Well, I literally do not understand the first question/paragraph. It is only through Gods' Spirit that I live at all. So to ask will I ever not need His kindness (grace) any more, I quite literally do not understand this or how to answer it. I've wracked my brain and I still can't find a way to answer you. I can't even comprehend the thought that any creature doesn't need Gods' kindness ever again. The mere thought is preposterous to me. My brain can't compute an answer because I don't understand the question, or even why one would consider such a question. I'm not trying to not answer, I just look and look at the question and it doesn't make any more sense to me no matter how long I look at it. I've tried very hard but it's like...even in heaven, does a single man or angel ever not need Gods' kindness? They only even exist because of Him. So the thought that a perfected being might no longer need Gods' kindness just shuts my brain down and I can't even work with the premise. If He took His Spirit from a single being, they would die...besides which, when you say "sonless perfect," IS there such a thing? My mind can't grasp what you are trying to ask. Are you asking if it is possible to become perfect without the Son? And then further if it is possible to be perfect and thereafter not need Gods' Spirit by Gods kindness? Satan was perfect. Adam was perfect. Does to be perfect mean you no longer need Gods' kindness? It's preposterous to even consider it because they were perfect WITH God, not apart from Him... I'm not trying to rant, I just don't grasp these questions.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 15, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

Well, I literally do not understand the first question/paragraph. It is only through Gods' Spirit that I live at all. So to ask will I ever not need His kindness (grace) any more, I quite literally do not understand this or how to answer it. I've wracked my brain and I still can't find a way to answer you. I can't even comprehend the thought that any creature doesn't need Gods' kindness ever again. The mere thought is preposterous to me. My brain can't compute an answer because I don't understand the question, or even why one would consider such a question. I'm not trying to not answer, I just look and look at the question and it doesn't make any more sense to me no matter how long I look at it. I've tried very hard but it's like...even in heaven, does a single man or angel ever not need Gods' kindness? They only even exist because of Him. So the thought that a perfected being might no longer need Gods' kindness just shuts my brain down and I can't even work with the premise. If He took His Spirit from a single being, they would die...besides which, when you say "sonless perfect," IS there such a thing? My mind can't grasp what you are trying to ask. Are you asking if it is possible to become perfect without the Son? And then further if it is possible to be perfect and thereafter not need Gods' Spirit by Gods kindness? Satan was perfect. Adam was perfect. Does to be perfect mean you no longer need Gods' kindness? It's preposterous to even consider it because they were perfect WITH God, not apart from Him... I'm not trying to rant, I just don't grasp these questions.

Then you ADMIT you will still struggle. You will never abide perfectly in Christ.

What you told me earlier, I can not comprehend other than the fact I would have to be perfect to live up to what you were saying.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 15, 2017

Sully said:

its ok bro, I can not see anything he says,, It has been quite peaceful.

PeterJens · Apr 15, 2017

The point being made is always about failure and it being ok.
How can sin ever be ok or forgiven before it is committed.

This is the abusers dream ticket, do what you like no come back.

In negates the expectation of walking in love and the Spirit.

MattforJesus · Apr 15, 2017

There is nothing we can do to inherit salvation,for our righteousness is as filthy rags,and our works are according to the flesh,for we do not have the Spirit when we first confess Christ.

When we confess Christ,and receive the Spirit,then we are to do works of the Spirit,which love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,and we are prepared unto all good works,representing Christ.

Paul,faith alone,not saved by works,when we initially come to Christ,for we can do nothing else but that.James,a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,after receiving the Spirit,for we have to help people with their needs if possible,and do not grieve the Spirit,and do not quench the Spirit.

Stunnedbygrace · Apr 15, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

No, I don't admit I WILL still struggle. But if you are asking about my spiritual state at present, I don't mind answering that. I am struggling some currently, wavering some, down to my last 17.00. I've sold some things on ebay but they hold funds for the first 21 days after a sale. I'm applying for food stamps next week. They keep sending me a notice that they think I will qualify for help. I have no idea how they found me and determined that because I've never asked for help. But some help would be nice.

My mother and aunt have been trying to get me to apply for disability (hands have no cartilage left at all - autoimmune thing where my body thought there was a threat from my cartilage and so began eating it! Freaky, huh?) Anyway, it apparently takes about 2 years to get approved for disability, but the lawyer doesn't charge anything unless you get a settlement. The settlement comes because if/when you do get approved, they start it from your very first appeal to them, not from when they approve you. So I have had some wavering, but oddly, the worse my situation has slowly become, the better my spiritual state has become. He has answered a lot of my prayers regarding my wavering and mistrust.

But I cannot state that I WILL still struggle always with that wavering. He has answered my prayers with His strength so far, why doubt Him or say, well, yes, He has improved my spiritual state some but He probably won't make me even stronger in it? To me, that is the opposite of trust and would actually be working against myself.

Stunnedbygrace · Apr 15, 2017

PeterJens said:

I think I rather agree with this. It is so good to know how merciful, forgiving and patient His Majesty is, but it a different thing to make compromise with unbelief and mistrust.

limey410 · Apr 15, 2017

PeterJens said:

This is such a legalists definition of sin and the problem with our relationship with
Christ. We are in Christ and He is in us.

There is never a point where we do not need Him, because love is about sharing and
being in mutual need and service.

What is being described by EG is weakness defines need rather than service and sharing
defines love. So one never arrives or there is never a lack of need or that we would desire
there not to be a point of arrival.

To know this reality is to know how to love and be loved. Why should it be anything less?

So you believe God needs you and your service? (you said mutual)

Stephen63 · Apr 15, 2017

truthhurts said:

Now you see why I put him on ignore..... it's just easier & less distracting.

I've developed a new philosophy in the BDF: Deal with the "big dogs" & put the little ankle-biting chihuahuas on ignore. It sure speeds things up & helps me focus on the real issues.

Depleted · Apr 15, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

What I know about applying for SSD (Disability.) It can average 2 years. It depends on what state you live in. Some states only take a year. Some states, (CT comes to mind) will be closer to 4-5 years, if that. (The cases are heard in MA, and MA gets peeved they have to do CT, so they tend to try to deny CT people.) We're in PA. Took me over 2.5 years, but because they didn't tell me that if I was going to keep trying to get help, they'd sit on the case. Took hubby 1.5 years, and would have taken less time if the doctor they sent him to didn't out-and-out lie.

BUT, if you've got nothing to lose, why not try? You already know they're going to deny you first time, (unless you're dying quickly, have cancer, or AIDS), so nothing to lose.

Depleted · Apr 15, 2017

Stephen63 said:

Yes, because calling everyone dogs and insulting everyone sure shows God' glory through you. (Do you even have any of God's glory for you?)

Johnny_B · Apr 15, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Here's something to add to abiding in Christ, John 15:4-5, 16 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.........You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

memō is the Greek word, to be in close and settles union. From Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament

We abide in settled union with Him because He chose us, we did not chose Him, for with out Him we can do nothing, we can't believe, have faith, receive, repent or anything to do wth abiding in Him. Our abiding in the vine is a picture of our union with Christ or "made us alive together with Christ" Ephesians 2:5 notice God MADE US, by grace are you saved>

eternally-grateful I wanted to add something to our discussion on "For by grace you have been saved through faith" Here's a figure of speech that can help understand ho "through" is being used here. "For cancer you go through chemo." Does chemo give you cancer? No! The result of having cancer, is why we need chemo. The same with faith, we need faith, because we have grace.

SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

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