SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

[preacher4truth]

Yeah whatever

Grow up.

The people I talk to. That is what they all say,, Restaurants I go to.. I hear from the waitresses that the worse people to serve are people who call themselves Christians, they are the rudest, The most judgmental, and the least generous of all people groups.. People at work are offended at the know it all, self righteous christians who talk the talk, but do not walk the walk. (I have to now try to show these people this is not what Christianity is about)

Of course it's never you, it's others. Perhaps if these waitresses saw your online posts they'd see you are the epitome of what they have described?

Maybe you need to get out some??

Yes, probably a little more. Many in churches are offended that God is God, try preaching the attributes of God. (Well, really, don't, try studying first). Many of the lost are offended about God being God. Try the problem of evil, maybe? Like I said you don't know what you're talking about - it's a given the lost hate God's people, I already get that.

By the way, you really need to get out more. You'll be on here like 14 hours a day. Arguing. Misusing Scripture. Grow up, study, and talk less. Much of your teaching is unbiblical. I say this out of concern and in brotherly love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grow up.

Get a mirror, Your childish attacks get old..

Of course it's never you, it's others. Perhaps if these waitresses saw your online posts they'd see you are the epitome of what they have described?

Actually they would probably be right there with me,, Wondering how people can be so proud and think they know it all. Attack people. Call them all kinds of names, Then try to blame shift. saying it is we who are doing it.

Yes, probably a little more. Many in churches are offended that God is God, try preaching the attributes of God. (Well, really, don't, try studying first). Many of the lost are offended about God being God. Try the problem of evil, maybe? Like I said you don't know what you're talking about - it's a given the lost hate God's people, I already get that.

Nah, Most people I talk to are not offended by God.. They Know God has the right to judge sin,

And yeah, they are offended by those churches who try to make god out into a god he is not..

as for true christianity, they may not agree, and may not be ready to come in, But most people are not offended

By the way, you really need to get out more. You'll be on here like 14 hours a day. Arguing. Misusing Scripture. Grow up, study, and talk less. Much of your teaching is unbiblical. I say this out of concern and in brotherly love.

See there you go again being mr know it all..You have not yet proven these things to even be true..

Oh, I am only on here at most a few hours during the day.. I am not here most nights or weekend,,

but considering you have only been here a few months, I would understand if you would not understand that.

By the way,, Have you thought about repenting for bearing false witness against us people who preach grace, saying we do not believe that true faith produces true works, and is NOT a faiht which does nothing?

Or continue to prove to the people I come in contact with how Christians are so hypocritical they will not even confess when they have been proven wrong?

 

[preacher4truth]

[/COLOR]

Get a mirror, Your childish attacks get old..

No attacks have come from me, unless you're so juvenile you think describing your behavior to be an attack.

Actually they would probably be right there with me,, Wondering how people can be so proud and think they know it all. Attack people. Call them all kinds of names, Then try to blame shift. saying it is we who are doing it.

With any due respect, you're describing your own bad behavior up above. For the record, I don't think I know it all, but the things I do understand are things which I will discuss on here. I used to hold some of your beliefs and thankfully by God's Grace have grown to see my errors. God has opened up the Word to me much more once He showed me these truths.

Nah, Most people I talk to are not offended by God.. They Know God has the right to judge sin,

And yeah, they are offended by those churches who try to make god out into a god he is not..

You're one who is offended with the Biblical God of Scripture. Now, you can keep going juvenile and claiming were of another "father" a false church, lost, satanic, have a false god all you want - all of that, go for it. But the fact remains you are holding to a truncated gospel and to a domesticated God who bows to your alleged free will and choosing. That is not the God of Scripture whatsoever.

Now, to be fair I'm certain you have a love for Scripture, and for God, but you're teachings and perceptions thereof are amiss.

Moreover, there are many professing believers, such as yourself, who hold great disdain for Sovereignty, Predestination, Reprobation, God showing mercy on only whom He wills, Election, Foreknowledge, Limited Atonement, and the fact there is no such thing as free will. In fact, you're the man in Romans 9:20 when confronted with these truths and with the attributes of YHWH. If He does not succumb to your desires, free will, and appear "fair" to you, then that simply cannot be God according to your position.

as for true christianity, they may not agree, and may not be ready to come in, But most people are not offended

See, you don't even have a biblical world view of the lost. The lost hate God, get your story straight. 'Marvel not that the world hates you, they hated ____...."

Again, the world hates God - the lost hate God - and even professing believers are offended by the true God of Scripture. You make it out as if the lost have some sort of love for God - they don't, and since you think they do, you're deceived bro.

One cannot even be saved until the person realizes at one point they were hostile toward and held disdain for God. IOW you have to get lost before you can get saved.
Now, just think about that - the lost hate God, and some professing believers are offended that God is God.

See there you go again being mr know it all..You have not yet proven these things to even be true..

Oh, I am only on here at most a few hours during the day.. I am not here most nights or weekend,,

but considering you have only been here a few months, I would understand if you would not understand that.

Let's see, 6 hours ago or so I left here, did a job, and you're still here running your mouth. Yep, that makes me Mr. Know It All, LOL!!!!!

By the way,, Have you thought about repenting for bearing false witness against us people who preach grace, saying we do not believe that true faith produces true works, and is NOT a faiht which does nothing?

I've never made such a claim. It's looking like it's you who needs to repent bro.

Since you "know" I said this, go fetch the quote that isn't there.

See? Your'e so blinded by anger and being online all day you are seeing things. Get your facts straight. I've never made such a statement, nor has it been implied.

Or continue to prove to the people I come in contact with how Christians are so hypocritical they will not even confess when they have been proven wrong?

That describes you perfectly, sir.

You've been proven wrong by Scripture so often, and you're hardening your heart brother. Most of your arguments are only pitting Scripture against Scripture. They are used to oppose the God of Scripture as well, as they are wrested to mean things they don't mean.

I say this all in concern and in brotherly love sir. Please seriously calm down, stop trying to teach so much and get some good, sound biblical teaching and grow.

 

[Depleted]

To fully understand what I'm understanding the Word Of God to say on God's grace for our salvation, we need to look at man's sinful nature. To establish we need two or three witnesses, OT, Gospels and epistles. Jesus John 8:34 "everyone that commits sin is a slave to sin" Psalm 14:1-3 “The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They (sinners) are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.” The word for fool here, is the uninformed. Ephesians 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Because of sin, you can not understand or see the truth of the Gospel. I Corinthians 2:14 I Corinthians 2:14 “The natural person (sinner) does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” II Corinthians 4:4 "In their (sinners) case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." As a sinner we can not understand, seek, do good, why because we are slaves to sin, a slave can not free themselves. We are lead by satan and he has blinded us, I love reading the miracles of Jesus, they paint pictures of us, we were bling, but God causes us to see, we were lame, but God causes us to walk in good work. Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." God's grace in the miracles of Jesus.

When we are in that state there is nothing good in us or do we seek God. Plus we do not understand faith, believing, repenting or anything that has to do with salvation. This is why Jesus said in, John 3:3 "“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” We need to be born again to understand the kingdom of God. Here's the beautiful part. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved" He makes us alive because of His mercy, great love, He loved us, made us alive, born again, what is the result. I Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God."

Here's how 2:5-7 reads without the insertion of "-by grace you have been saved-" "made us alive together with Christ6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Paul gives a quick commentary on how God's mercy work in our salvation, between initial salvation and he expands on it after he has explained the full benefit of our salvation from start to finish. 2-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

He's doing this so we can understand, that Psalm 3:8, Job 2:9 and soon to be revealed Revelation 7:10 "Salvation belongs to the Lord; your blessing be on your people! Seals" Not to us, we receive it but, the Lord is the one who saves from start, being born again to glorified bodies to being with His forever. It's not our doing, we were slaves to sin, blinded by the prince of this world, we had no understanding, there was no good in us, we did not seek God or His righteousness, we hated God. That's why it God's grace that saves us, but we have a responsibility as well, our faith that we can now see a need for it. Because God has caused us to see, by making us alive with Christ.

If we received grace because of faith, it would be by God's grace, Paul would of said, "-by faith you have been saved-", he was adding our part of salvation to the equation and 2:8 would read, "For by faith you have been saved through grace", as we know, he did not do that.

Here's how our salvation is, it starts in eternity and ends in eternity. Election, Calling and Regeneration - Faith and Repentance - Justification and Adoption - Sanctification and Assurance - Preseverance and Glorification.

He elects us before time began, He calls us through the Gospel, He causes us to be born again. He show us the need for faith and repenting by the Gospel of truth and the Spirit, we respond. By faith He justifies us and He adopts us to an inheritance. He sanctifies us, we walk in the good works He has prepared for us by the Spirit that sealed us. His guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, our glorified bodies.

Born again, regeneration, faith and repentance, happens at the same time. We are hearing or have heard the Gospel of truth, the Spirit make us alive from our trespasses and sins by regeneration (born of water and the Spirit), we see the kingdom and the need for faith and repentance, we respond to God's calling, because He has opened our eyes to see the kingdom of God.When you realize the weight of your sin before a Holy God, the fear of judgement falls on you, when He forgives you, you now see what great love He loved you with, you will worship Him and live Him for His great grace that saved you from the eternal judgement of Hell.

I know that's a lot, but I needed to set the stage to bring as much of the need of God's intervention in our sinful lives as possible.

It's not what you say, but how you say it.

Oh wait, not that either.

It's really how small you say it. I have computer glasses, because my bifocals don't help me see the computer screen well enough. I've got no idea which font you use, but I have trouble reading the Size-2, and simply can't read the smaller font you use. (I suspect it's the font that happens when you copy/paste, so you're not doing it on purpose.)

Honestly, I'd like the read what you say somewhere along the way, but haven't been able to read about 80% of anything you say. Could you pick a bigger font or size it larger for us myopic folks? Please?

 

[Depleted]

Why would anyone believe Salvation could be based on anything other than faith? I do not see the reason for debate.

Because God's name isn't Faith? (I think salvation is based on God.)

 

[truthhurts]

By the way, People are not offended that God is god. they are offended by his people. who do not represent God.. but call themselves children of God..

This is a perfect example of you saying something that is completely refuted by the Bible....Romans 1 clearly says you are wrong....someone points out to you and you get mad, call them works based , self righteous, fruit inspecting pharisees....then you go to another thread and make statements like this all the time.....you told us on another thread bearing fruit is not needed to abide and bearing fruit is not evident of anything....

a Few people and then I showed you in John 15 your error...do you receive it? No...you rant and rail and call them works based , self righteous, fruit inspecting pharisees....you divert by always redirecting to how one obtains salvation...

 

[Johnny_B]

I am not trying to fight either, Thank you so much for showing me what you think in a non judgmental way.. It gives us hope we can listen to each other. and learn what the other believes. even if in the long run we fail to agree. Again, Thank you.




Notice also. Abraham was considered righteous in Gen 3: 15. Because he believed or trusted in Gods promise. Because he was saved, and because he had faith, We see all the work Abraham did post salvation, Even believing God would raise his son from the dead to keep his promise. (but even that faith took time to grow. As we know. Ishmael was a child of sin. and lack of faith abraham had.. at the time)

Abram is the perfect example. He did not wake uo one day and say I have faith or from worshiping other gods say I don't like these I serve the living God. Because He had no clue about God, he was like all men the way God describes us. But first Abram was called by God, which means he was chosen and called by God.

Genesis 12:1-4 “Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.”

Joshua 24:2-3 “And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River[a] in old times; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the River, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.”

Genesis 18:17-19 “The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”

Why? Because Abram's heart was like all mens hearts. Which I posted next.

Psalms 10:3-4 "For the wicked boasts of his heart’s desire; he blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord. The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts."

Psalms 14:1-3 "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one."

Psalm 36:1 “Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes.”

Psalms 119:155 “Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek Your statutes.”

Jeremiah 17:9-10 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? 10 I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.”

God says we are wicked and do not seek Him, think about Him nor can we submit to Him Law or please Him, because we are hostile toward Him.

Isaiah 9:13 “For the people do not turn to Him who strikes them, nor do they seek the Lord of hosts.”

We do not think about God, we can not please Him, submit to His Law nor can we, because we are hostile toward Him.

Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

We do not understand the things of the kingdom of God. I Corinthians 2:13-14 “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin." Salves can not set themselves free.

John 3:3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith.. Faith is what allows Gods grace to save us But it is not the ACT that saved us, The act that saved us was the cross.

Does this make sense, if not. Please say so and ask.. I will try to help you understand what I mean..

you allowthat's what the verse is talking about in "boasting", you are a speck of dust on a larger speck of dust floating in space for a limited time, by your faith are going to allow the creator of all that is seen and unseen, by your faith you are going to allow Him to save you from hell. You have more faith in your faith then God's grace. This is why we can't have faith of our own strength, God has to give it to us.

Psalms 10:3-4 "For the wicked boasts of his heart’s desire; he blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord. The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts."

Psalms 14:1-3 "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one."

Psalm 36:1 “Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes.”

Psalms 119:155 “Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek Your statutes.”

Jeremiah 17:9-10 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? 10 I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.”

God says we are wicked and do not seek Him, think about Him nor can we submit to Him Law or please Him, because we are hostile toward Him.

Isaiah 9:13 “For the people do not turn to Him who strikes them, nor do they seek the Lord of hosts.”

We do not think about God, we can not please Him, submit to His Law nor can we, because we are hostile toward Him.

Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

We do not understand the things of the kingdom of God. I Corinthians 2:13-14 “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin." Salves can not set themselves free.

John 3:3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[Johnny_B]

It's not what you say, but how you say it.

Oh wait, not that either.

It's really how small you say it. I have computer glasses, because my bifocals don't help me see the computer screen well enough. I've got no idea which font you use, but I have trouble reading the Size-2, and simply can't read the smaller font you use. (I suspect it's the font that happens when you copy/paste, so you're not doing it on purpose.)

Honestly, I'd like the read what you say somewhere along the way, but haven't been able to read about 80% of anything you say. Could you pick a bigger font or size it larger for us myopic folks? Please?

Okay I'll resize it for you. The font is the ​arial from this sight,

 

[Johnny_B]

.

It's really how small you say it.

As you requested Sister.
To fully understand what I'm understanding the Word Of God to say on God's grace for our salvation, we need to look at man's sinful nature. To establish we need two or three witnesses, OT, Gospels and epistles. Jesus John 8:34 "everyone that commits sin is a slave to sin" Psalm 14:1-3 “The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They (sinners) are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.” The word for fool here, is the uninformed. Ephesians 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Because of sin, you can not understand or see the truth of the Gospel. I Corinthians 2:14 I Corinthians 2:14 “The natural person (sinner) does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” II Corinthians 4:4 "In their (sinners) case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." As a sinner we can not understand, seek, do good, why because we are slaves to sin, a slave can not free themselves. We are lead by satan and he has blinded us, I love reading the miracles of Jesus, they paint pictures of us, we were bling, but God causes us to see, we were lame, but God causes us to walk in good work. Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." God's grace in the miracles of Jesus.

When we are in that state there is nothing good in us or do we seek God. Plus we do not understand faith, believing, repenting or anything that has to do with salvation. This is why Jesus said in, John 3:3 "“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” We need to be born again to understand the kingdom of God. Here's the beautiful part. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved" He makes us alive because of His mercy, great love, He loved us, made us alive, born again, what is the result. I Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God."

Here's how 2:5-7 reads without the insertion of "-by grace you have been saved-" "made us alive together with Christ6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Paul gives a quick commentary on how God's mercy work in our salvation, between initial salvation and he expands on it after he has explained the full benefit of our salvation from start to finish. 2-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

He's doing this so we can understand, that Psalm 3:8, Job 2:9 and soon to be revealed Revelation 7:10 "Salvation belongs to the Lord; your blessing be on your people! Seals" Not to us, we receive it but, the Lord is the one who saves from start, being born again to glorified bodies to being with His forever. It's not our doing, we were slaves to sin, blinded by the prince of this world, we had no understanding, there was no good in us, we did not seek God or His righteousness, we hated God. That's why it God's grace that saves us, but we have a responsibility as well, our faith that we can now see a need for it. Because God has caused us to see, by making us alive with Christ.

If we received grace because of faith, it would be by God's grace, Paul would of said, "-by faith you have been saved-", he was adding our part of salvation to the equation and 2:8 would read, "For by faith you have been saved through grace", as we know, he did not do that.

Here's how our salvation is, it starts in eternity and ends in eternity. Election, Calling and Regeneration - Faith and Repentance - Justification and Adoption - Sanctification and Assurance - Preseverance and Glorification.

He elects us before time began, He calls us through the Gospel, He causes us to be born again. He show us the need for faith and repenting by the Gospel of truth and the Spirit, we respond. By faith He justifies us and He adopts us to an inheritance. He sanctifies us, we walk in the good works He has prepared for us by the Spirit that sealed us. His guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, our glorified bodies.

Born again, regeneration, faith and repentance, happens at the same time. We are hearing or have heard the Gospel of truth, the Spirit make us alive from our trespasses and sins by regeneration (born of water and the Spirit), we see the kingdom and the need for faith and repentance, we respond to God's calling, because He has opened our eyes to see the kingdom of God.When you realize the weight of your sin before a Holy God, the fear of judgement falls on you, when He forgives you, you now see what great love He loved you with, you will worship Him and live Him for His great grace that saved you from the eternal judgement of Hell.

I know that's a lot, but I needed to set the stage to bring as much of the need of God's intervention in our sinful lives as possible.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Re: SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace

It's not quite that simple. I could truly believe and KNOW I have been saved and believe that I have to continue and abide.



No you can not. Because then your faith would be in how well or how capable you are of abiding, the subject of your faiht is taken off god and placed on yourself and your ability to abide.

Those who have faith in God. trust in his promise, and his work, Not in themselves, They can now focus on being a child of God and growing in him with no fear of rejection if they do not live up.

Satan wants us to doubt our salvation or question it, Because it is then our focus comes of God and we start to focus on performance, (we are only righteous and produce fruit when we abide) and he has taken many a person out of the war because of this lack of faith..

So to start a person as a new believer and tell him already his salvation is only assured if they abide. That is not a good thing.. Because you have just told that person he must trust himself and his ability Not GOD


Some do not look at eternal life as a thing to be grabbed for and got as their own possession, apart from abiding.


Then to me, they do not understand the gospel.. Jesus said trust him and you have it, Jesus said in John, Eat the food and drink the cup (the word) to the point you understand it and then TRUST it,, And you will never die, live forever, Never hunger or thirst, and be risen on the last day, You HAVE ETERNAL life when you do this.

to deny this is to deny christ, and again, shows lack of faith in Gods word. and his promise.. And switch faith to self..


This doesn't necessarily mean my trust is not in God. It can mean that one believes they are a hypocrite if they say they believe but then find themselves worrying, for example, over provision. They clearly see that they are saying one thing (I believe and trust) but doing the opposite (worrying even though He said these things would be added to us.) So they see that their worry is unbelief in something He has said and they set to praying for what they need. This is not having trust in something other than God. It is them seeing they have been lying and hypocritical and taking the matter seriously. So it's not as simple as systematic theology strives to make it. Many godly men believe they must continue in that same trust that they were saved through by the kindness of God. And they see that He has pointed out to them an area where they are lying and are not continuing in that same trust and they set to the weed growing in the garden through prayer.



I will be honest, I do not know how you can say you have faith, and not worry, knowing that if you fall you can lose salvation. To me that would either cause fear. or you would have to hide your fear and end up lying to yourself..

Our eternal security in christ is the bases for growing in christ and having the peace that surpasses all understanding,, It is how we can endure tribulation, Pain Suffering, and continue to carry on, even when we mess up..​

• How is this for faith i was at church by a friend at work's design, and quite literally bored to tears wiping them away when the pastor asked if anyone wants to recieve Jesus Christ's salvation raise your right hand. At that moment i had no intention of raising my hand for i was angry at God and i quite literally thought "OHHH, Thank God! They ususally do this at the end i can go home now" How faithfull? and How close was i to Him in my heart right then? Alas though my daughter who was 13 nudged me and without looking to her to see what she needed i just assumed that she wanted to know if she should raise her hand so.......to set a good example to my daughter i raised mine and immediately i felt a physical sensation of the Holy Spirit entering into my body...and i knew instantly that i for whatever reason had just recieved His salvation and i wept.....telling my friend i hope i don't disappoint Him, fully accepting His gift........So people u don't have to jump thru any kind of hoops just accept that is it, at least it was for me Thank you Lord Jesus

Yes, I agree Sondra - it is just that simple. Then there comes the following of Him. My point was AM I following Him and AM I continuing in trust (abiding in Him) if I worry about money and about saving millions for retirement when He clearly states that "all these things will be added to you" and "don't worry about these things as the gentiles do?"

So if I'm worrying and following how the world says I will be secure, AM I following Him? Or have I turned back to the world and its ways?

So this is the thing I struggle with - I can easily accept the words from His mouth that I find gracious (like living forever in a new body) but want to push Him off a cliff when He says something I don't care for because it would require me to stand firm regarding the storing up of money.

I am saying I struggle with those hypocrisies in me that would say I trust Him fully for eternal life but then, by my worrying and storing of money, prove to me that I don't trust or do ALL His words.

Can I trust Him for the part that sounds gracious to my ears and then not listen to Him about the parts that I have to struggle with in prayer when I see I am not obeying?

 

[preacher4truth]

This is a perfect example of you saying something that is completely refuted by the Bible....Romans 1 clearly says you are wrong....someone points out to you and you get mad, call them works based , self righteous, fruit inspecting pharisees....then you go to another thread and make statements like this all the time.....you told us on another thread bearing fruit is not needed to abide and bearing fruit is not evident of anything....

a Few people and then I showed you in John 15 your error...do you receive it? No...you rant and rail and call them works based , self righteous, fruit inspecting pharisees....you divert by always redirecting to how one obtains salvation...

Sadly this is absolutely correct. Less keyboard and more study is needed. There is no sense in offering those of his ilk Scripture, they'll just simply, without looking at the Word, pound out an angry accusatory response on their keyboards and continue on in error.

 

[mailmandan]

Morning Mailmandan,

Let me bounce a question off you: Do you believe that continuing in faith is required for salvation? That is, if a true believer goes back into willfully living according to the sinful nature, remains in that state and dies in that state, are they still saved?

Yes and saving faith is firmly rooted and established in Christ and continues and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

What do you think about the following scriptures? What do they mean to you?:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The Jews were called the "servants of the Lord". Isaiah 43:10 - "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He." This does not mean they were all saved. Unbelievers are cast into hell, not children of God.

Galatians 4:6 - And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Therefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

John 8:35 - The servant does not abide in the house for ever; the son does remain forever.

"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

*Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Why would anyone believe Salvation could be based on anything other than faith? I do not see the reason for debate.

Well...you would have to have had some pretty involved discussion with him to understand what the problem is. By his statements (for example, when he says it is satan who tries to convince us we must abide) it appears to us that he has a snag.

If anyone attempts to have a conversation where we move along past the first elements, he insists on halting it and demanding that we state that abiding is not necessary to salvation. And since we can't state it, we have a conversation with him to say why we can't state that and how it seems an odd thing to us to even have a conversation in the first place that debates whether abiding is necessary or not. To us (and maybe I shouldn't say "us" because I can't speak for others), to ME, I don't understand why he pushes everything to a conversation of whether or not we must remain to not be cut off. And in each conversation I've had with him (who I love like a brother ) he wants me to state something I can't - that abiding is beneficial but not necessary to salvation. He wants me to state that I must just believe I will live forever whether I abide or not until the end. Believing all else He has said and struggling in prayer when I see I am a hypocrite and a liar is just to get some unspecified rewards of some sort that no one can say what they are.

I can't grasp the reason why he wants to argue that to learn the obedience of faith is optional. It appears to be fear to me but I don't know for sure. He seems to define faith as: believing I will live forever. Believing all else He has said is only optional. To me, this is marveling at His pleasing and gracious words but then trying to push Him off a cliff when He says the harder things that require giving up the world and its dictates for what I must do to be secure.

It seems that he might think all my long struggle in prayer over the lies and hypocrisies He has shown me in myself is me trying to "earn my salvation." I think it is hungering for righteousness in my inner man and struggling to receive the blessing. And to me, it appears that he thinks if I struggle in this way, that I am doing a terrible thing. But to me, I am following my Lords example and, after all, I have not struggled yet in my fight against the enemies in me to the shedding of my blood or to crying tears tinged with blood.



So to me, this does away with actually following Him and dealing with my hypocrisies and lies. And God hasn't let me do that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I agree Sondra - it is just that simple. Then there comes the following of Him. My point was AM I following Him and AM I continuing in trust (abiding in Him) if I worry about money and about saving millions for retirement when He clearly states that "all these things will be added to you" and "don't worry about these things as the gentiles do?"

So if I'm worrying and following how the world says I will be secure, AM I following Him? Or have I turned back to the world and its ways?

So this is the thing I struggle with - I can easily accept the words from His mouth that I find gracious (like living forever in a new body) but want to push Him off a cliff when He says something I don't care for because it would require me to stand firm regarding the storing up of money.

I am saying I struggle with those hypocrisies in me that would say I trust Him fully for eternal life but then, by my worrying and storing of money, prove to me that I don't trust or do ALL His words.

Can I trust Him for the part that sounds gracious to my ears and then not listen to Him about the parts that I have to struggle with in prayer when I see I am not obeying?

You are human, You have the flesh,, To say you will never struggle with finances or worry about things would be a sin itself.

You have promised to take care of your kids, and you have the means to take care of them and give them all their needs (example) if they do not trust your care and guidance, and because of it fall into some sin, Do they stop being your children? I would hope you love them more, forgive them, and continue to try to help them know your true love.

Is there anything your child could ever do to make you so angry you stop being their parent? They are your flesh and blood. You could kick the out to the world. they are still your flesh and blood.. That can not be broken, Neither will your love..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well...you would have to have had some pretty involved discussion with him to understand what the problem is. By his statements (for example, when he says it is satan who tries to convince us we must abide) it appears to us that he has a snag.

No, I do not have a snag, If we have to abide to stay saved, we are under law, not under grace, Saying we have to abide is just a fancy way of saying we must continue to do good, and be obedient, Because we are disobedient when we do not abide, and obedient when we abide.

If anyone attempts to have a conversation where we move along past the first elements, he insists on halting it and demanding that we state that abiding is not necessary to salvation. And since we can't state it, we have a conversation with him to say why we can't state that and how it seems an odd thing to us to even have a conversation in the first place that debates whether abiding is necessary or not. To us (and maybe I shouldn't say "us" because I can't speak for others), to ME, I don't understand why he pushes everything to a conversation of whether or not we must remain to not be cut off. And in each conversation I've had with him (who I love like a brother ) he wants me to state something I can't - that abiding is beneficial but not necessary to salvation. He wants me to state that I must just believe I will live forever whether I abide or not until the end. Believing all else He has said and struggling in prayer when I see I am a hypocrite and a liar is just to get some unspecified rewards of some sort that no one can say what they are.

I can't grasp the reason why he wants to argue that to learn the obedience of faith is optional. It appears to be fear to me but I don't know for sure. He seems to define faith as: believing I will live forever. Believing all else He has said is only optional. To me, this is marveling at His pleasing and gracious words but then trying to push Him off a cliff when He says the harder things that require giving up the world and its dictates for what I must do to be secure.

It seems that he might think all my long struggle in prayer over the lies and hypocrisies He has shown me in myself is me trying to "earn my salvation." I think it is hungering for righteousness in my inner man and struggling to receive the blessing. And to me, it appears that he thinks if I struggle in this way, that I am doing a terrible thing. But to me, I am following my Lords example and, after all, I have not struggled yet in my fight against the enemies in me to the shedding of my blood or to crying tears tinged with blood.



So to me, this does away with actually following Him and dealing with my hypocrisies and lies. And God hasn't let me do that.

If salvation can be lost, It must be earned.

No one will deny the FACT that a person who leaves was once a part of the Church, appeared to do great works in the church, and then suddenly leaves the church, Gives God the finger, tells the Church and God to go to hell, and says he does not even believe in God anymore.. That that person is saved,,

what may be different is you may say he lost salvation, I will say he never had it. but the fact remains, neither of us think that person is saved.

But when you say salvation is based on obedience, on abiding, on how well we love God and obey his commands, Then we have issues. Because the gospel has just changed to a works based gospel. and salvation becomes a prize, a reward or a gift (as quite a few people in this discussion have come right out and said that is what they believe) and not a grace gift of God. then we have issues, and I will stand for the truth,, If people do not like to be confronted, thats on them, IT WILL NOT STOP ME. and it does not mean I HAVE or ATTACK people who preach obedience.

I am attacking their GOSPEL (how they think one is saved) . not their view of sanctification (obedience)

However, I profess to "hopefully I am not perfect) start only responding to doctrinal issues from now on, not silly attacks.. If people can not discuss without attacking, Blame shifting, and all the other nonsense that goes on.. I will no longer respond.. And am hoping some of my friends will follow me on this..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You are human, You have the flesh,, To say you will never struggle with finances or worry about things would be a sin itself.

You have promised to take care of your kids, and you have the means to take care of them and give them all their needs (example) if they do not trust your care and guidance, and because of it fall into some sin, Do they stop being your children? I would hope you love them more, forgive them, and continue to try to help them know your true love.

Is there anything your child could ever do to make you so angry you stop being their parent? They are your flesh and blood. You could kick the out to the world. they are still your flesh and blood.. That can not be broken, Neither will your love..

I don't believe this that you say in your first paragraph. I think the worry itself IS sin, because it's unbelief. It is not believing what He has said and promised, just like eve. To me, it seems like you are saying there can be no victory over my unbelief (my sin) in this life. To me, that is the exact opposite of saying if I abide in Him I won't sin.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No, I do not have a snag, If we have to abide to stay saved, we are under law, not under grace, Saying we have to abide is just a fancy way of saying we must continue to do good, and be obedient, Because we are disobedient when we do not abide, and obedient when we abide.




If salvation can be lost, It must be earned.

No one will deny the FACT that a person who leaves was once a part of the Church, appeared to do great works in the church, and then suddenly leaves the church, Gives God the finger, tells the Church and God to go to hell, and says he does not even believe in God anymore.. That that person is saved,,

what may be different is you may say he lost salvation, I will say he never had it. but the fact remains, neither of us think that person is saved.

But when you say salvation is based on obedience, on abiding, on how well we love God and obey his commands, Then we have issues. Because the gospel has just changed to a works based gospel. and salvation becomes a prize, a reward or a gift (as quite a few people in this discussion have come right out and said that is what they believe) and not a grace gift of God. then we have issues, and I will stand for the truth,, If people do not like to be confronted, thats on them, IT WILL NOT STOP ME. and it does not mean I HAVE or ATTACK people who preach obedience.

I am attacking their GOSPEL (how they think one is saved) . not their view of sanctification (obedience)

However, I profess to "hopefully I am not perfect) start only responding to doctrinal issues from now on, not silly attacks.. If people can not discuss without attacking, Blame shifting, and all the other nonsense that goes on.. I will no longer respond.. And am hoping some of my friends will follow me on this..

First of all, I wasn't attacking you. I'm sorry if you felt I was. Sharing what I believe is not attacking you. I just really need to stress that I am not attacking you by sharing what I believe and think.

As to your 1st paragraph here, you remove faith from the equation. I can't understand taking salvation by grace through faith and then changing it to salvation by grace. Yes, it is only because of God's kindness and even the faith is not of ourselves, but if God says it's through trust, I don't understand why it would be desirable (or advisable) to remove the trust part. You are, to me, in essence, saying: if I have to trust, then it is earned and not a free gift.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't believe this that you say in your first paragraph. I think the worry itself IS sin, because it's unbelief.
It is not believing what He has said and promised, just like eve. To me, it seems like you are saying there can be no victory over my unbelief (my sin) in this life. To me, that is the exact opposite of saying if I abide in Him I won't sin.

Which if you read what I said, is exactly what I said, so how is it you did not agree? Struggle is due to worry,, It is lack of faith, that is why it is sin ALL sin comes from lack of faith or trust, in a moment of time you chose to trust God, or trust and serve self.. If you do the second, You have sinned.

which is why I said earlier, (a day or so ago) I do not think you are understanding what I am saying..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First of all, I wasn't attacking you. I'm sorry if you felt I was.

I did not think you were.. forgive me if I made you think I did.

Sharing what I believe is not attacking you.

lol. Your starting to sound like Peter.. As long as you do not tell me what I believe (like he does) and do not attack me if I tell you you were wrong in what you thought i believed, we will be ok.. And you have never done this..

I just really need to stress that I am not attacking you by sharing what I believe and think.

You have never attacked me,, I have never felt that,, You do not push that you know what I believe, and when you are corrected, try to back peddle, attack further or blame shift.. So please. if I ever come across that I think you are doin git, forgive me, because I have never felt attacked from you.

A little frustrated at times, but never attacked.

As to your 1st paragraph here, you remove faith from the equation, I can't understand taking salvation by grace through faith and then changing it to salvation by grace. Yes, it is only because of God's kindness and even the faith is not of ourselves, but if God says it's through trust, I don't understand why it would be desirable (or advisable) to remove the trust part. You are, to me, in essence, saying: if I have to trust, then it is earned and not a free gift.

You have to seperate salvation from every day living.

I am saved because I trust what God said concerning me, My sin, My depravity, My condemnation, My inability to save myself. My alienation from him, And his love for me via the cross. and if I trust him (the cross) he will save me, Give me eternal life, Make me his son, Wash me of all my sins, and seal me wiht the spirit.

That is my position in christ, I am his, and he said he will never let me go.


Now that I am a child (justification)

I begin a life long journey of starting to learn to trust him in all areas of my life. Many will come immediately, Many will take time and alot of pain and suffering as he teaches me to trust him, And some I do not even know about yet (the moment i a first saved)

This is called sanctification.

to become sanctified, we have to abide in him, and allow him to empower us. Also called seeking after the things of the spirit.

However, there will be times we fail to do this, Time we lack faith, Times we do not seek the spirit. It is then when we sin..

so if failure to abide causes loss of salvation, You see my issue,, that means we are under law. and lose salvation EVERY time we sin..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Which if you read what I said, is exactly what I said, so how is it you did not agree? Struggle is due to worry,, It is lack of faith, that is why it is sin ALL sin comes from lack of faith or trust, in a moment of time you chose to trust God, or trust and serve self.. If you do the second, You have sinned.

which is why I said earlier, (a day or so ago) I do not think you are understanding what I am saying..

I don't agree with the idea that I must struggle the rest of my life in and with unbelief and mistrust, just going on sinning. The very thought seems to be conceding defeat from the start of the race of trust. And He did not say, if you would trust in Me you wouldn't sin, but since it is impossible for any man to ever trust Me fully, you will go on in sin, and because you will never be able to stop sinning, it's okay because the Blood covers it.
He said if you continue to trust in Me, remain in trust in Me, (abide in Me) you will not sin.
I'm not ready to concede defeat because I think He can do it. If I didn't think He could, I would go with the next best thing I could find to grasp at, which would most likely be what it appears to me that you believe.