SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

[preacher4truth]

I understand the Calvinists position. It's why I am not a Calvinist.

No, you don't understand it.

But let's stick to the Scriptures. You've made false claims against what Christ has taught. You've misused Hebrews 3:15, it is not about conversion.

You've misused John 12:32 as well.

Now what could Jesus mean by 'draw all men' to Himself? By His doctrine, this drawing would result in conversion. So, that being said, and true, it cannot mean what you want it to mean. Why is it that you misuse and misunderstand so much of the Scriptures?

 

[valiant]

lol Ok...I feel I should probably add clarification to my original post to see where I'm coming from. Here are Christ letters to his 7 end-time Churches, after the cross; New Testament. Remember these are all considered his church so we have to assume they all confess Christ.

Do all in your church 'truly believe and confess Christ'? I don't think so. The seven churches had genuine believers and 'hangers on' who called themselves Christians. The overcomers are the genuine Christians.

 

[Yahshua]

Do all in your church 'truly believe and confess Christ'? I don't think so. The seven churches had genuine believers and 'hangers on' who called themselves Christians. The overcomers are the genuine Christians.

So now you proceed to qualify who are truly of Christ's church over what Christ himself is recorded saying out of his mouth? That's pretty brazen of you. Your arrogance is showing again. Why don't you address the scripture in detail. Address any one of the letters.

 

[valiant]

So now you proceed to qualify who are truly of Christ's church over what Christ himself is recorded saying out of his mouth? That's pretty brazen of you. Your arrogance is showing again. Why don't you address the scripture in detail. Address any one of the letters.

Yes I take Jesus Christ at His word not your misunderstanding of it

 

[Yahshua]

Yes I take Jesus Christ at His word not your misunderstanding of it

Yeahhh I know you do lol

Then please by all means you have the floor. Since I can't read lol please address the 7 letters in detail. Edify the church as instructed by Paul.

 

[PennEd]

And does God withhold that faith from "others"?

I truly don't know. Its the freewill of man vs. The sovereignty of God debate that is way above my pay grade. I only know once I was lost and now I am found.
Peace, Grace and love to you brother!

 

[Depleted]

Hey everyone.

I'm doing studies on different books of the bible. And as I do, I'm seeing conditions to our salvation; our new birth in Christ.

Now please hear me, I'm not saying it's based on works. We receive our new life in Christ by grace through faith. So would that "by faith" be a condition?

Here's why I'm asking. If a person on the street were to say he's saved and I ask him what he means by that and he tells me that he's saved by God's grace. And he says furthermore, everyone is saved by God's grace so therefore everyone is saved.

So I ask him further if he has faith in God and if he receive God's grace through faith and he tells me no. He woke up one morning and just decided he is saved and so is everyone else. They are saved by God's free gift of grace and it has nothing to do with faith.

Wouldn't we have to say that there is a condition and it's by grace through faith. The both of them must go together for there to be new birth? And yes, this is a teaching creeping into the church that we don't have to have faith. God's free gift of grace is for everyone without conditions. So if I speak with this person and tell him no, he must have God's grace through faith to be born-again, is that not a condition?

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you. I'm merely coming at this from a different perspective enough that you get to decide if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you.

I hate to go all Maxwell like on you, (Maxwell -- one of the guys who comes on here to debate by starting with asking about definitions. lol), but what do you mean by salvation? Many people think it is everything about being born-again, but it is and it isn't. There's an order to it. Things have to happen or it isn't "salvation."

What I believe is this: (link explains overall where I'm coming from, if you've never heard of this before. Use, if needed.)
1. Election (or predestination. Either way, God chooses.)
2. Atonement (what Jesus did on that cross for whosoever God chooses)
3. God's calling (that time when God gives you the tug -- that whatever-it-is when we first think "maybe I should consider this.")
4. Inward calling (that moment when we hit, "Oh yeah! Need you God" moment.)
5. Regeneration. (The big TaDa! When God brings us new life and changes us into his people. Usually hits like a big surprise. )
6. Conversion. (What you call "faith," but also when we need to repent. The moment when we realize who we were and cannot be that anymore.)
7. Justification. (When what Jesus did on that cross is accepted for each of us individually. When his punishment propitiates God's wrath on us. When God sees Jesus in us, instead of us in us.)
8. Sanctification. (What we've been doing ever since. A combination of God setting us apart and drawing us to do what he wants us to do and we getting the heart to want to relearn everything to be more like him. This is the life-long part of salvation. Where we put into practice what God is already changing us into. He's getting us ready to be who he always planned us to be -- a people set apart to glorify him eternally.)
9. Glorification. (What we will become for next life. Where we're going in sanctification.)

So, with that in mind, got to say, yes, there are conditions. If you think of it, the biggest condition -- Jesus dying on that cross -- was met by God doing it all.

The same thing for the first five on that list. No doubt all of us see only God in those things and none of us, (well, unless you refuse election, but now that I get that, I've forgotten how people can refuse that, so don't know how they can think all this out without that anymore. Not saying anything against those who don't believe in election. It's more like knowing 1 and 1 equals 2 for so long, I can no longer remember what ever made me think it was another answer, other than I do remember when that was new to me too), but I see God doing the saving throughout all 9 steps.

The only part I have in it is # 8 (sanctification.) And # 8 showed well on Jonah. He could choose to not-follow God all he wanted, but in the end he really never had any other choice. I've gone by fish stomach much of my Christian life. (Fighting God's direction tooth and nail.) It never worked out for me. And ends up when I don't fight it, I like the direction he's taking me, so I'm willing to follow more often. (More often. Not to be confused with always.) A little me and a lot of God in the 8th part.

Sooo, now that I showed you what I think coming at this from a completely different direction, I have to ask, (because I am infinitely nosy), do we agree or disagree? And did I answer what to tell the guy who is asking about conditions required?

 

[Depleted]

I'm seeing many going back and forth on grace, faith, or both. Got a question for you -- whose faith, grace, or both saves? Yours or God's?

 

[Depleted]

The sky is blue....

Not arguing, more like nosiness. This "The sky is blue" seems relatively new with you. Did you use that line recently, and then keep saying it again, because you feel like you keep saying the same thing often?

AND, if you lived in Philly would that be "The sky is green?" (Blue sky plus heavy cloud cover and no breeze = green on bad days around here. lol)

 

[Depleted]

Really? Rose is talking about salvation and faith, and what did everyone immediately do -- argue? Seriously? If that's what you get out salvation and faith, exactly why do you want it? You don't need God to keep proving your pet theories/argue.

Do you really think arguing the same arguments day in and day out pleases God? Do you really think you are oh-so-important that this is your life calling -- to argue endless with the same people over the same thing?

Feels like she brings up milk chocolate and everyone immediately douse it with vinegar! It's about God, for Pete's sake! Leave the vinegar in the cupboard!

 

[Grace777x70]

Not arguing, more like nosiness. This "The sky is blue" seems relatively new with you. Did you use that line recently, and then keep saying it again, because you feel like you keep saying the same thing often?

AND, if you lived in Philly would that be "The sky is green?" (Blue sky plus heavy cloud cover and no breeze = green on bad days around here. lol)

LOL..I hear ya'....here is the full version of the sky is blue...

This is also a consideration when interacting with some on line and encountering the below type of behavior.

What happens in some people's minds is this:

Someone makes the statement:

"What a beautiful blue sky the Lord gave us today."

Someone else responds back to the above statement:

"What? The sky is not green- everyone knows that the sky is blue - you are lawless and an enemy of Christ, in a cult, a heretic and false teacher, satanic, delusional".

When people have this kind of a mindset - it is impossible to have any kind of a rational discussion with them as they continually "see" something else than what is actually said. They then proceed to talk as if this "made-up thought" is real.

And sometimes we can just agree to disagree too but to deliberately mis-represent what is really being said is deceitful and with these types I have no interaction with until I see that they are at the very least being honest in their discussions and not being abusive and insulting others.

 

[Billyd]

Why is it so difficult to understand this simple verse.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Grace is God's unmerited favor.

Salvation is Eternal Security (life).

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Salvation is the gift. God, by his grace, offers salvation to everyone.

We have three choices.

1. We can toss the gift in the trash unopened. Result no salvation.

2. We can open the gift, ooh and aah over it, maybe even try it on for size, then toss it in the corner of the closet and forget about it. Experimental faith. Result no salvation.

3. We can open the gift, and by faith, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Result salvation. Eternal Security.

The real question should be, if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and have Eternal Security, what does he expect of you? I'll assure you that it isn't sit on your backside. He expects you to be a functional part of His Kingdom. If you are not a functional part of His Kingdom, you have opened your gift, and tossed it in the corner of your closet. Retrieve the gift and put it to work for Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Sorry, but the above sentiment is untrue. Salvation is 100% God. And later we will see by Scripture that faith comes from God, not "us".

God gets 100% credit for our salvation, yet that does not dismiss man's responsibility to choose to place faith in Christ for salvation. I was not implying that we conjure up faith in the flesh. God draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) yet man has to choose, once drawn and enabled.

Salvation is not a cooperative effort, that if you do your part, God will do His.

I was not implying that either, as if salvation is in part based on our works. Eternal life/salvation is a gift that is received through faith, not works (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9).

Note 1 Corinthians 1:25ff. The above teaching is Pelagian error and is frankly boasting, which is excluded.

What is with all the misunderstandings and straw man arguments?

Sorry again, salvation is not by choice, nor does it come through choice. Decisional regeneration is a recent invention of C. G. Finney, Robert Sandeman and other false teachers. Many are deceived by it, and popishly guaranteed heaven because of some one time decision. THAT is not the test! The test is for evidence of conversion, not "one day long ago I decided..." No! It is based on what Christ has done, not self, and ALL converted are transformed and bear fruit, 1 Corinthians 3:17ff; Hebrews 12:14.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already.. (John 3:18). That's a choice. God does not fatalistically decide who will and won't be saved.

There was an excellent treatment of this error by Dr. Erwin Lutzer on his recent sermons via www.bottradionetwork.com. He was spot on and exposed this deceptive error.

Better than that, the Scriptures are clear that salvation isn't by man's choice; John 1:13, Romans 9:16; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:1; 1 Peter 1:3. Faith, again, is not an inherent ability or source, it is external, coming from Christ, Acts 3:16; Romans 10:17; and Ephesians 1:19 which shows that we only believe by the same power that raised Christ from the dead, and that is certainly not some inherent ability or source.

Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision (John 6:44,65). Unless the Father draws us in and enables us, we would NEVER believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

I know the decisional salvation error is popular, but it is a denial of the truth of Scripture.

We are not robots and God gives us free will to choose. Your argument negates free will, which is a denial of the truth of Scripture.

Now, let the attacks begin.

After reading through some of your other posts, it sounds like you enjoy being attacked.

 

[mailmandan]

My question would be: Who's Peter's audience?

Let me guess? The Jews. Do you have some kind of dispensational view to add to James chapter 2 that alters the meaning?

 

[mailmandan]

Can you list some works a believer does in order to show one's salvation?

James gives us an example of a work in James 2:15-16.

 

[John146]

James gives us an example of a work in James 2:15-16.

If I clothe and feed the needy this must be proof that I'm saved?

 

[John146]

Let me guess? The Jews. Do you have some kind of dispensational view to add to James chapter 2 that alters the meaning?

I believe the Bible is laid in somewhat chronological order. Christ's life, death, and resurrection is given in the four gospels. The Jews rejected their King. The nation of Israel is cut off, so God raises up the Apostle Paul to reach the Gentile world with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul's thirteen epistles instruct the NT believer how to live. Once the church is taken up, God turns His attention back to the nation of Israel to fulfill His promises to them. He gives them direction how to endure the Tribulation into the Millennium in the Jewish epistles Hebrews - John. In the body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. It would be counterproductive for the Holy Spirit to instruct the Jews and not the Gentiles in the Church Age.

 

[mailmandan]

If I clothe and feed the needy this must be proof that I'm saved?

Not necessarily, yet James is focusing on what someone who claims to have faith has failed to do in such situations in vs. 15-16.

 

[John146]

Not necessarily, yet James is focusing on what someone who claims to have faith has failed to do in such situations in vs. 15-16.

Do you not think many people who claim to be Christians and do good works are not Christians at all?

 

[Johnny_B]

Sorry, but the above sentiment is untrue. Salvation is 100% God. And later we will see by Scripture that faith comes from God, not "us".

Salvation is not a cooperative effort, that if you do your part, God will do His. Note 1 Corinthians 1:25ff. The above teaching is Pelagian error and is frankly boasting, which is excluded.


Sorry again, salvation is not by choice, nor does it come through choice. Decisional regeneration is a recent invention of C. G. Finney, Robert Sandeman and other false teachers. Many are deceived by it, and popishly guaranteed heaven because of some one time decision. THAT is not the test! The test is for evidence of conversion, not "one day long ago I decided..." No! It is based on what Christ has done, not self, and ALL converted are transformed and bear fruit, 1 Corinthians 3:17ff; Hebrews 12:14.

There was an excellent treatment of this error by Dr. Erwin Lutzer on his recent sermons via www.bottradionetwork.com. He was spot on and exposed this deceptive error.

Better than that, the Scriptures are clear that salvation isn't by man's choice; John 1:13, Romans 9:16; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:1; 1 Peter 1:3. Faith, again, is not an inherent ability or source, it is external, coming from Christ, Acts 3:16; Romans 10:17; and Ephesians 1:19 which shows that we only believe by the same power that raised Christ from the dead, and that is certainly not some inherent ability or source.

I know the decisional salvation error is popular, but it is a denial of the truth of Scripture.

Now, let the attacks begin.

Amen!!!
The preacher never called out to the people, asking if they wanted to be saved. The people called out to the preacher, what must we do to be saved. With that response to the word you know the Spirit is working in their hearts to repent/beieve/faith.

Here's a video where there is no alter call, but the people respond to the Gospel with a powerful move of the Spirit. It's called EE-TAOW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYuRa1iPM8U