SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

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Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,784
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#81
Matthew 24 is talking about when the armies are surrounding Jerusalem in 70 AD and the wh9ole city was destroyed. Interesting fact from Josephus - not one Christian was killed in that siege - they remembered Jesus words and fled.

We can take scriptures from all over without the context and thus we can make scriptures say anything we want.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say I was a sinless perfectionists in the flesh believer. I tell people if they have sinned - they are blotted out of God's book, then they are not saved nor ever will be. Here is my proof text.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Then I would proceed to apply some spiritual witchcraft on you by saying " This is the word of God - how can you not believe the word of God. If you take away the word of God you are doomed."

This is a sign of the last day apostasy. You have itching ears and just want to do what you want......and other religious nonsense like that.
Ok I see what you're getting at, and I also agree with you...But if we take the substance of the passages don't they speak to what I'm talking about? Both of the references I gave speak to the substance of (a) following God's instructions and not deviating from them in order to (b) be saved.


Let's take Sodom and Gomorrah in context from the entire chapter of Genesis 19:

1) God saved the family by removing them from the city. We know Lot's family deserved judgment along with everyone else in those cities because (as an example) in the city Lot offered his daughters to the people to have sex with, and after the judgment his daughters decided to commit incest with him. This shows their characters were equally sinful and perverse as the people of the twin cities. So they were only saved out of God's mercy for Abraham's intercession.

2) The angels of God, after removing them, instructed the family not to turn back to the city. At this point they were effectively saved from judgment they deserved, all they had to do was to continue to obey God's instructions. Again, judgment avoided and protected by God as long as they remained obedient.

3) Lot's wife decided to turn back. Again, she was already saved by God though his angels. Judgment already avoided. But she turned back to her old life.

4) She is judged along with everyone in the city as if she was never saved. She did not endure until the end.


-----


If we take the entire chapter of Matthew 24, we know that Christ is explaining what will happen at the time of the end, because that's what his apostles asked him about

Matthew 24:3

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”


Christ then goes through a summary of everything that is to happen up to the moment of his coming and the end.


Matthew 24:13

13 but the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


The word translated as The end is the "telos", meaning the tail end, so Christ is talking about the very end not just the destruction of Jerusalem.

So what about the substance of these passages, taking the entire chapters in full context, where we have the same thing: (a) God giving instruction to not deviate from but to endure in, in order to (b) be saved?

See what I'm getting at?
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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#82
Ok I see what you're getting at, and I also agree with you...But if we take the substance of the passages don't they speak to what I'm talking about? Both of the references I gave speak to the substance of (a) following God's instructions and not deviating from them in order to (b) be saved.


Let's take Sodom and Gomorrah in context from the entire chapter of Genesis 19:

1) God saved the family by removing them from the city. We know Lot's family deserved judgment along with everyone else in those cities because (as an example) in the city Lot offered his daughters to the people to have sex with, and after the judgment his daughters decided to commit incest with him. This shows their characters were equally sinful and perverse as the people of the twin cities. So they were only saved out of God's mercy for Abraham's intercession.

2) The angels of God, after removing them, instructed the family not to turn back to the city. At this point they were effectively saved from judgment they deserved, all they had to do was to continue to obey God's instructions. Again, judgment avoided and protected by God as long as they remained obedient.

3) Lot's wife decided to turn back. Again, she was already saved by God though his angels. Judgment already avoided. But she turned back to her old life.

4) She is judged along with everyone in the city as if she was never saved. She did not endure until the end.


-----


If we take the entire chapter of Matthew 24, we know that Christ is explaining what will happen at the time of the end, because that's what his apostles asked him about

Matthew 24:3

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”


Christ then goes through a summary of everything that is to happen up to the moment of his coming and the end.


Matthew 24:13

13 but the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


The word translated as The end is the "telos", meaning the tail end, so Christ is talking about the very end not just the destruction of Jerusalem.

So what about the substance of these passages, taking the entire chapters in full context, where we have the same thing: (a) God giving instruction to not deviate from but to endure in, in order to (b) be saved?

See what I'm getting at?

I do see what you mean.

It was also the end of the age of the Old Mosaic system of the Law as well which was completely shut down with the temple being destroyed and no animal sacrifices have been done since then.

I do see what you mean and we are at the end of the age in another sense too. The last days started at Pentecost when the Holy spirit came. We are viewing the end of the age or world or days through our modern day eyes.

The truth is we are safe in Christ because of His work on the cross and resurrection and there are warning scriptures for us walking after the flesh and how that it brings death to us while on this earth. Take up shooting heroin in your arms and that destruction will come quickly.

Here is an interesting teaching about Sodom and Gomorrah which looks at things differently then our traditional view. I liked it and it bore witness with my spirit. Here it is if you are interested in such things.

[video=youtube;5kHJBtJumcI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kHJBtJumcI[/video]
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#83

I do see what you mean.

It was also the end of the age of the Old Mosaic system of the Law as well which was completely shut down with the temple being destroyed and no animal sacrifices have been done since then.

I do see what you mean and we are at the end of the age in another sense too. The last days started at Pentecost when the Holy spirit came. We are viewing the end of the age or world or days through our modern day eyes.

The truth is we are safe in Christ because of His work on the cross and resurrection and there are warning scriptures for us walking after the flesh and how that it brings death to us while on this earth. Take up shooting heroin in your arms and that destruction will come quickly.

Here is an interesting teaching about Sodom and Gomorrah which looks at things differently then our traditional view. I liked it and it bore witness with my spirit. Here it is if you are interested in such things.

[video=youtube;5kHJBtJumcI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kHJBtJumcI[/video]
Ok, Ty Grace777
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#84
Agreed. But it doesn't really answer the question. WHY did you respond to the Gospel, to Jesus Christ.

You heard the Gospel, you responded. Why? Where did you get the faith to believe what you heard?

I'm not trying to have a "gotcha" moment. I'm truly asking where that faith came from that made you say "yes! I believe Jesus is God in the flesh, and He died for my sin, and rose to life again!"

Where did the faith come from that YOU believed and responded?
We are all created with response-ability. Everyone is able to respond to God. Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart against Him.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#85
Let's look at this from a different angle. If there was no grace of God in Christ - could people be saved by faith?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#86
Let's take Sodom and Gomorrah in context from the entire chapter of Genesis 19:

1) God saved the family by removing them from the city. We know Lot's family deserved judgment along with everyone else in those cities because (as an example) in the city Lot offered his daughters to the people to have sex with, and after the judgment his daughters decided to commit incest with him. This shows their characters were equally sinful and perverse as the people of the twin cities. So they were only saved out of God's mercy for Abraham's intercession.

2) The angels of God, after removing them, instructed the family not to turn back to the city. At this point they were effectively saved from judgment they deserved, all they had to do was to continue to obey God's instructions. Again, judgment avoided and protected by God as long as they remained obedient.

3) Lot's wife decided to turn back. Again, she was already saved by God though his angels. Judgment already avoided. But she turned back to her old life.

4) She is judged along with everyone in the city as if she was never saved. She did not endure until the end.
This is talking about PHYSICAL DELIVERANCE.


If we take the entire chapter of Matthew 24, we know that Christ is explaining what will happen at the time of the end, because that's what his apostles asked him about
LOL you can't read.

Matthew 24:3
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
when will what happen? The destruction of the Temple Jesus was looking at. He then deals with this in detail See also Mark 14; Luke 21 which concentrate on this.

Christ then goes through a summary of everything that is to happen up to the moment of his coming and the end.
you have overlooked 'when shall these things be' which is very important. So Mark and Luke,

Matthew 24:13

13 but the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
LOL they were two different ends,

The word translated as The end is the "telos", meaning the tail end, so Christ is talking about the very end not just the destruction of Jerusalem.
rubbish. Learn Greek.


See what I'm getting at?
Yes, a totally distorted interpretation.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#87
Oops missed this..sorry about that.



What about the following passage spoken by Christ of the end times? It's another condition...


Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Why is "endurance" a condition of being saved in the end? What are believers meant to endure (i.e. maintain/persevere in), in context? If there wasn't a condition established to remain saved would Christ needed to have said this?

Take for instance the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot's wife was saved from the destruction, IF she did not turn back...but she did turn back and so was no longer saved but was judged with all the rest of them.

That is not talking about eternal salvation, That is talking about being saved (not killed) during the tribulation. and entering the kingdom when Christ returns.. Vs being killed by the tribulation which surrounds you. It will take some enduring through what seems like hell to be saved.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#88
No sir, you saved by grace and faith...of course you will now play mindless word games to excuse yourself from the reality of the truth of the scriptures....faith is not works....

faith is heart belief whereas grace alone is simple mental assent...
No, I am saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. (eph 2: 8)

Those are not my words they are Pauls words.. I suggest you listen to paull..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#89
I have never said anything different than you have here.... you want it to be by grace alone...thats not Bible...

Grace THROUGH faith is grace alone..


But if you want to be technical.. I was saved by great works,, Of Course, God accomplished all those works..

I was also saved by the faith he gave me.. For Jesus himself said it is the work of God that I have faith (john 6)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#90
Faith isn't a substance, it's a response. Faith receives, and what it receives is the activity of God.
Concerning salvation.

John 6: [SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#91
Where did you get this fabricated lie?!?

Isn't it true you're saying that to back up your belief that salvation requires a one-time act of faith?!?

If you're forgiven forever after conversion, faith is no longer required.:rolleyes:
this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. From anyone.

And the most untrue thing I have ever heard..


The BEGINNING of trusting God in all areas of your life, Is to first trust God in your eternal life..

If your eternity is always in question, What happens here on this earth does not matter.. Who cares if you have a great life (from the worlds standard) if your eternity is doomed..

Ony those who have assurance of eternal life can withstand the tribulations and trials of life..
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,096
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#92
We are all created with response-ability. Everyone is able to respond to God. Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart against Him.
I think this question is a little too important not to address. So we are created with "responsibility". Third try now. Where does the faith come from to respond to this "responsibility" we are all born with?
Does this faith come from yourself? Did YOU decide to believe in your own?
You were DEAD. How can a dead person decide on their own to believe?
Did God give you that faith or did your BELIEF come from somewhere else.

I can tell you I believe God gave me that faith. Just like He gave me every other good in my life.

I, on my own, would have continued to be lost. Content in the cesspool of my sin, if HE didn't give me my faith to believe.

I won't try again, and not completely sure why you just won't answer. You are a brother in Christ who daily exalt His Name. So I'm sorry if this came across wrong.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#93
I think this question is a little too important not to address. So we are created with "responsibility". Third try now. Where does the faith come from to respond to this "responsibility" we are all born with?
Does this faith come from yourself? Did YOU decide to believe in your own?
You were DEAD. How can a dead person decide on their own to believe?
Did God give you that faith or did your BELIEF come from somewhere else.

I can tell you I believe God gave me that faith. Just like He gave me every other good in my life.

I, on my own, would have continued to be lost. Content in the cesspool of my sin, if HE didn't give me my faith to believe.

I won't try again, and not completely sure why you just won't answer. You are a brother in Christ who daily exalt His Name. So I'm sorry if this came across wrong.

And does God withhold that faith from "others"?
 
Mar 7, 2016
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#94
I agree that even God can Kick his angels out of heaven so why cant he kick his believers ?... Surely we where only made as high as the angels for a little while ?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#95
We are all created with response-ability. Everyone is able to respond to God.
That's funny, Christ disagrees with you: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44

I'm assuming you know what the word "can" here entails. It is preceded by a negative clause "no one can". "Can" refers to ability. No one has that ability unless the Father draws him. Your statement is false, and I am certain you just can't handle being wrong, even in the face of Scripture and will simply carry on in error.

Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart against Him.
...written to believers and it isn't speaking about an invitation to conversion. You're misusing Scripture.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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#96
Now If youve recieved the gift of salvation then your in the new world and ive advanced to the year of the new world...

Please answer how come im not walking with loved ones and holding hands. ?
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#97
That's funny, Christ disagrees with you: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44

I'm assuming you know what the word "can" here entails. It is preceded by a negative clause "no one can". "Can" refers to ability. No one has that ability unless the Father draws him. Your statement is false, and I am certain you just can't handle being wrong, even in the face of Scripture and will simply carry on in error.

...written to believers and it isn't speaking about an invitation to conversion. You're misusing Scripture.
[h=1][/h]"[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]And I, when I [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]am lifted up from the earth, will [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]draw ALL men to Myself.” John 12:32[/FONT]
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#98
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to Myself.” John 12:32
You don't know what that verse means which is why you're pitting it against another. It doesn't mean all persons who have lived since the cross. Therefore it must mean something else. Do you always misuse Scripture? Have you considered, instead of arguing on here many hours a day, actually studying and getting someone to teach and help you? 2 Timothy 2:15 is in Scripture for a reason bro.

Nonetheless I've shown you your error - none are able to come to Christ, and you say man is able. No need to wonder who is correct here.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#99
You don't know what that verse means which is why you're pitting it against another. It doesn't mean all persons who have lived since the cross. Therefore it must mean something else. Do you always misuse Scripture? Have you considered, instead of arguing on here many hours a day, actually studying and getting someone to teach and help you? 2 Timothy 2:15 is in Scripture for a reason bro.

Nonetheless I've shown you your error - none are able to come to Christ, and you say man is able. No need to wonder who is correct here.
I understand the Calvinists position. It's why I am not a Calvinist.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Yep. Faith is the condition.

Colossians 1:22-23
22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel, which that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.


What were to happen if someone doesn't endure until the end, but loses faith?
lol Ok...I feel I should probably add clarification to my original post to see where I'm coming from. Here are Christ letters to his 7 end-time Churches, after the cross; New Testament. Remember these are all considered his church so we have to assume they all confess Christ. Notice what he warns will happen to some of his church. Notice what he says...


To Ephesus - Revelation 2:2-7
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
- Part of Christ's church
- Said to have "fallen"
- Must repent or will have their "light" removed (keeping light is conditional)
- Must Endure to eat from tree of Life (conditional)


To Smyrna - Revelation 2:9-11
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.
- Part of Christ's church
- Must be faithful until death (duration)
- Must Endure to avoid "second death" (i.e. lake of fire; conditional)


To Pergamos - Revelation 2:13-17
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against [you] with the sword of my mouth.

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
- Part of Christ's church
- Has doctrines Christ hates
- Must repent from them or Christ will fight with sword (same sword used to slay enemies in Rev 19)
- Must Endure to eat hidden manna & have hidden name (conditional)


To Thyatira - Revelation 19-29
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searches the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
- Part of Christ's church
- Commits sins
- Will be cast into great tribulation unless repents from sins
- Must Endure UNTO THE END to receive power over the nations (conditional)


To Sardis - Revelation 3:2-6
3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
- Part of Christ's church
- Called "dead"
- Works not perfect
- Garments "defiled"
- Must repent or Christ will come upon them as a thief
- Must Endure so as to not be BLOT OUT of the book of life (conditional)


To Philadelphia - Revelation 3:8-13
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
- Part of Christ's church
- Has kept Christ word and endured
- Must not let anyone take away crown (which means it can be taken away)
- Must Endure to become a pillar in God's temple and be written upon (conditional)


To Laodiceans - Revelation 3:15-22
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
- Part of Christ's church
- Called "lukewarm"
- Considered wretched
- Must repent from materialism
- Must Endure to sit with Christ on his throne (conditional)

---

Again, each one of these are of Christ's Church...

Again, each one of these have thus Confessed Christ and the Cross else they wouldn't be of His Church...

Again, these are warnings and instructions to Christ's Church for the end times when he would "come to them"...

Will fight some of HIS CHURCH with the sword from his mouth, no different from the armies against him, if they don't repent and endure in the faith...

Will cast some of HIS CHURCH into great tribulation, if they don't repent and endure in the faith...

Will BLOT OUT some of HIS CHURCH from the BOOK OF LIFE, if they don't repent and endure in the faith...

Some of HIS CHURCH Will not face the SECOND DEATH (i.e. lake of fire), IF THEY ENDURE in the faith...

He tells some of HIS CHURCH to REMAIN FAITHFUL unto their death...

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These passages aren't talking about physical deliverance but eternal salvation. So address what the scriptures say. Christ wouldn't even talk about the second death or blotting out a name out of the book of life with HIS CHURCH if THEIR salvation was secured at the moment of confession. But 7 times (the number of perfection) he tells his church to endure until the end.
 
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