Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
174
0
#21
For those who will receive it: Lk 21:21-24 clearly shows that Jesus has not returned yet but is coming soon.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV
verses 21-23 speak of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Verse 24 clearly shows that the promised restoration of national Israel
(Hos Chapter 2, Isa chapter 66, Jer chapter 31, Zec 12:10-13:2) had to occur before Jesus' return.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
48
#22
Unfortunately Luke 21:24 does not describe an event hundreds of years into the future or continuing since the war of 66-70AD

Luke 21:24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled (Greek - pateo) under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Rev 11:2 “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread (Greek - pateo) under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

Ardnt and Gingrich state that pateo means to tread down, to trample, “of the undisciplined swarming of a victorious army through a captured city.”

This is active warfare.

This is precisely what happened in 70 AD and as John stated in his revelation the trampling down lasted for 42 months - which was the length of the siege of Jerusalem in the war of 66-70AD.

Jerusalem has not been subject to active warfare since the 1st century AD, true that fighting has broken out at times there, but that does not negate the fact that Luke and John both are speaking of the 1st century AD conflagration.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
5,521
140
63
#23
Unfortunately Luke 21:24 does not describe an event hundreds of years into the future or continuing since the war of 66-70AD

Luke 21:24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled (Greek - pateo) under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Rev 11:2 “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread (Greek - pateo) under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

Ardnt and Gingrich state that pateo means to tread down, to trample, “of the undisciplined swarming of a victorious army through a captured city.”

This is active warfare.

This is precisely what happened in 70 AD and as John stated in his revelation the trampling down lasted for 42 months - which was the length of the siege of Jerusalem in the war of 66-70AD.

Jerusalem has not been subject to active warfare since the 1st century AD, true that fighting has broken out at times there, but that does not negate the fact that Luke and John both are speaking of the 1st century AD conflagration.
if we read the whole chapter 21, Jesus talking about destruction of temple and His second coming

The destruction of the temple happened in 70 AD and the second coming is not happen yet.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
48
#24
Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

1st century AD.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
59
48
#25
John's "wrath to come" came and went in the 1st century AD - he wasn't warning Christians 2000 years later in stating "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

His message was for his hearers - not a time capsule for a generation 100's of years later.
Really? So are you saying that repentance from sins or the penalty for them has come and gone? Because the warth they were flee from involved repentance. Matthew 3:7-12

“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Since you do not seem to understand that it is talking about the wrath to come for unrepentant sins, Luke will clear it up, Luke 3:7-9 “He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?8 Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”


Matthew and Luke are recording the same event fron two different angels.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
48
#26
Really? So are you saying that repentance from sins or the penalty for them has come and gone? Because the warth they were flee from involved repentance. Matthew 3:7-12
That's not what I'm saying at all Johnny - I'm saying the wrath that was coming pronounced by John was for his 1st century hearers for violation of the old covenant for shedding innocent blood according to the blessing and cursings of Deuteronomy and other things.

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
5,521
140
63
#27
Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

1st century AD.
Is Son of man coming in the cloud at 1 st century?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,933
633
113
#28
"And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
Well this is what I pointed out to Locutus, but he would not accept it. John was not the actual Elijah, but came in the spirit and power of Elijah, so yes, a type of Elijah would be perfectly fine. Since he emphatically denied that he was the original Elijah, that is conclusive that the Lord was simply referring to the spirit and power of Elijah.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,144
335
83
#29
Well this is what I pointed out to Locutus, but he would not accept it. John was not the actual Elijah, but came in the spirit and power of Elijah, so yes, a type of Elijah would be perfectly fine. Since he emphatically denied that he was the original Elijah, that is conclusive that the Lord was simply referring to the spirit and power of Elijah.
Well what I meant was, the prophecy which says, "See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes" is not in regards to the literal Elijah, but a type of Elijah, which was John the Baptist. That's why I included what Jesus said when his disciples said, "why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" And Jesus said Elijah does truly come first and in fact has already come" which was in reference to John the Baptist. In other words regarding Mal.4:5 God did not go into an explanation stating that it would not be Elijah himself, but a type of Elijah.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,933
633
113
#30
Well what I meant was, the prophecy which says, "See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes" is not in regards to the literal Elijah, but a type of Elijah, which was John the Baptist.
Your interpretation would mean that instead of the Day of Grace which followed the presence of John the Baptist and Christ on earth, the great and terrible Day of the LORD began on the Day of Pentecost! Which as you know, would be absurd. While Peter quoted all of Joel's prophecy, we know that some of it was fulfilled then, and some is yet to be fulfilled.

The Day of the LORD corresponds to the Great Tribulation, and the original Elijah must come to earth and prophesy to Israel before that happens. So what we read in Revelation 11 corresponds to the coming of Elijah (as at least one of those prophets during the reign of the Antichrist). I believe Moses will be the second prophet, both being spoken as as the Two Witnesses. So when we read about the coming of Elijah in Malachi 4:5, it is yet a future event.
 
Jul 23, 2017
879
27
0
#31
the chihuahua man is still claiming Jesus returned in the 1st century and 99,99% of christians missed it. what a weak return, one city was destroyed, who cares that has happened millions of times on a worse scale than jerusalem. weak sauce
 
Apr 23, 2017
1,064
36
0
#32
time of jacob's trouble hmm... jeremiah 30:7?

how is this future u see???? even jewish rabbis overstand that this is about babylonian captivity u see.... read their commentaries. its clear this is near future when written u see....... even christian commentators mention this. in jeremiah 30:3 its talking about them returning from said captivity..... its not talking about thousands of years later but the babylonian captivity........ u see.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,933
633
113
#33
time of jacob's trouble hmm... jeremiah 30:7?

how is this future u see????
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1).

Because this is a time which has never been before, nor will ever be again, it is yet future.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
48
#34
Daniel's prophecies were completely fulfilled when the power of the holy people was shattered in the war of 66-70 AD:

Dan 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

Matt 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,933
633
113
#35
Daniel's prophecies were completely fulfilled when the power of the holy people was shattered in the war of 66-70 AD:...
Isn't Preterism wonderful? It automatically puts us past the Millennium. We are already dwelling in the New Heavens and the New Earth. The New Agers would lover Preterism. So Locutus, is this the Age of Aquarius or the Age of Locutus?
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,591
59
48
#36
Daniel's prophecies were completely fulfilled when the power of the holy people was shattered in the war of 66-70 AD:

Dan 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

Matt 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
I'm agreeing with you on this one.

But, there is another 3 1/2 times after the scattering, making a complete 7 times.

-----

So the first 3 1/2 times, is from Babylon to 70 ad. Spoken by the angel in Daniel 12:4-7.

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad, until Jerusalem is restored to Israel.

Together, the 7 times equal the time of the statue in Daniel 2. The statue shows the time that Israel is ruled by the gentile nations until they are restored to control of Jerusalem (1967).

-----

The Revelation is about the second, 3 1/2 times.

The 2 witnesses and the woman of ch 12, both tell the same story about Israel, the times of the gentiles, and a restoration to Jerusalem.
 
Last edited:

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,591
59
48
#37
For those who will receive it: Lk 21:21-24 clearly shows that Jesus has not returned yet but is coming soon.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV
verses 21-23 speak of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Verse 24 clearly shows that the promised restoration of national Israel
I agree.

Is Israel, restored to control of Jerusalem at this present time, and the times of the trampling have ended?


(Hos Chapter 2,
Hosea 2:18, "a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, ...." gentiles, the kingdom covenant, the church.

This covenant was made on the day of Pentecost, the beast gentiles entered soon after.


Isa chapter 66,
Isa 66:7-8, Jesus birth and the Pentecost kingdom/church. A nation/kingdom brought about in 1 day, Pentecost.

V 19, "declare my glory among the gentiles." Paul.

V 22, "the new heavens and the new earth", The new covenant, the old died at the cross, buried by 70 ad.


Jer chapter 31,
Jer 31:15, "Rahel weeping for her children", the birth of Jesus.

V 27, The gentiles enter the new covenant 37 ad.

V 31-34, A new covenant, 33 ad.



Zec 12:10-13:2) had to occur before Jesus' return.
Zec 12:10, "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced", fulfilled at the cross Jn 19:36-37.

13:1, "a fountain opened....for sin and for uncleanness." The Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
 
Jul 23, 2017
879
27
0
#38
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1).

Because this is a time which has never been before, nor will ever be again, it is yet future.
where are all the preterists? come on chihuahua man. answer us. why does it say trouble such as never was since there was a nation?
u expect me to believe that nothing as bad has ever happened as the 70ad destruction of jerusalem?? any proof of this? this is ridicilous. why does this debate even exist.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,591
59
48
#39
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1).

Because this is a time which has never been before, nor will ever be again, it is yet future.
70 ad - 1967...........
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,591
59
48
#40
Your interpretation would mean that instead of the Day of Grace which followed the presence of John the Baptist and Christ on earth, the great and terrible Day of the LORD began on the Day of Pentecost! Which as you know, would be absurd. While Peter quoted all of Joel's prophecy, we know that some of it was fulfilled then, and some is yet to be fulfilled.

The Day of the LORD corresponds to the Great Tribulation, and the original Elijah must come to earth and prophesy to Israel before that happens. So what we read in Revelation 11 corresponds to the coming of Elijah (as at least one of those prophets during the reign of the Antichrist). I believe Moses will be the second prophet, both being spoken as as the Two Witnesses. So when we read about the coming of Elijah in Malachi 4:5, it is yet a future event.
The day of the Lord that Peter spoke of was the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

-----

But Rev 11 doesn't actually say that it is Elijah, or Moses, that is assumed.