Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,601
59
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#41
Is Son of man coming in the cloud at 1 st century?
Yes, clouds of Roman armies.

But it wasn't a resurrection coming, the resurrection for salvation (2nd) has yet to take place.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
5,521
140
63
#42
Yes, clouds of Roman armies.

But it wasn't a resurrection coming, the resurrection for salvation (2nd) has yet to take place.

[h=1]Matthew 24:30New International Version (NIV)[/h]30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[a] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[b]

so In the first century Jesus come in the clouds of Roman army?

is Roman army fly oN the sky

than all the people of the earth mourn?

I do not think in the first century all the people of the earth mourn, Roman people not mourn, they win.

so your interpretation not accurate.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,213
40
48
#43
lol, Salvation does include deliverance from the wrath to come,,,that is if today an child is born and is under penalty of an "future judgement" after today then all has not been set forth from it's judgement. If today judgement is final and an child is born, then they are innocent,paid for, and cannot face the wrath to come and so all of the preaching is null and void...
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,213
40
48
#44
That's what I would that you all would speak about under this thread title,,,that is after ad70 are there "some who are born and lived and are still under judgement?",day of the Lord,resurrection of some into fire and others into happiness eternal and such,lol....that would bring it to its head you know in the midst of pondering...
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,601
59
48
#45
Matthew 24:30New International Version (NIV)

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[a] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[b]

so In the first century Jesus come in the clouds of Roman army?

is Roman army fly oN the sky

than all the people of the earth mourn?

I do not think in the first century all the people of the earth mourn, Roman people not mourn, they win.

so your interpretation not accurate.
Please go to the thread "end times", Page 5, post 86.

These verses are about the end of the times of the gentiles and the restoration of Jerusalem.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,601
59
48
#46
lol, Salvation does include deliverance from the wrath to come,,,that is if today an child is born and is under penalty of an "future judgement" after today then all has not been set forth from it's judgement. If today judgement is final and an child is born, then they are innocent,paid for, and cannot face the wrath to come and so all of the preaching is null and void...
The wrath to come is the 2nd death, separation from God, not a trib on earth. Go back and read the scriptures in context to see that this is true.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,948
649
113
#47
Yes, clouds of Roman armies.
At what point did Roman soldiers become angelic beings?

When the Bible says that Christ will come WITH clouds, that is a metaphor for multitudes of angels and saints surrounding Christ, all dressed in white, and radiating light, and giving the appearance of clouds moving down from Heaven to earth. And this is still future, so no one should try and mislead people by claiming that the second coming of Christ is already an accomplished fact.

There has never been a time of UNIVERSAL MOURNING AND LAMENTATION as the world inhabitants have literally (visibly) seen Christ coming with power and great glory. So His having already come is complete nonsense, since this world would have been purified and perfected completely had He already come.

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:64).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30).
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
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#48
At what point did Roman soldiers become angelic beings?

When the Bible says that Christ will come WITH clouds, that is a metaphor for multitudes of angels and saints surrounding Christ, all dressed in white, and radiating light, and giving the appearance of clouds moving down from Heaven to earth. And this is still future, so no one should try and mislead people by claiming that the second coming of Christ is already an accomplished fact.

There has never been a time of UNIVERSAL MOURNING AND LAMENTATION as the world inhabitants have literally (visibly) seen Christ coming with power and great glory. So His having already come is complete nonsense, since this world would have been purified and perfected completely had He already come.

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:64).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30).
I stumped a preterist once and asked him about the 7 thunders. I heard nothing for months.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,601
59
48
#49
That's what I would that you all would speak about under this thread title,,,that is after ad70 are there "some who are born and lived and are still under judgement?",day of the Lord,resurrection of some into fire and others into happiness eternal and such,lol....that would bring it to its head you know in the midst of pondering...
I can't see what you are saying, but I will try to answer.

The time of Jacob's trouble is directed towards Israel (Jacob), not the planet. It lasts until Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

The seals and trumpets are directed at Israel after the flesh for rejecting the kingdom. The things shown are consequences of the rejection of the gospel kingdom. God withdraws His blessings and protection, and evil comes flooding in (Noah).

At the same time, those who accept Jesus and the kingdom enjoy the blessings of a relationship with Jesus (living waters in the church/mill/kingdom).

An Israelite who accepted Jesus would receive the blessings of the mill kingdom.

Israelites who continued to reject the kingdom would continue to receive the consequences of the trumpets.


So in the same time period, 70 ad until restoration, we have the blessings of the kingdom for those who accept Jesus and a great time of trouble for Israeites who don't.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,601
59
48
#51
At what point did Roman soldiers become angelic beings?

You mean, evil spirits? You mean evil spirits of the Roman iron dragon beast army? (They are actually described by their spiritual attributes at the 5th trumpet)


When the Bible says that Christ will come WITH clouds, that is a metaphor for multitudes of angels and saints surrounding Christ, all dressed in white, and radiating light, and giving the appearance of clouds moving down from Heaven to earth.
So the clouds are not literal?

If you see the OT references to clouds, you will see that they also refer to armies, creating clouds of dust from their approaching, with horses and such.


And this is still future, so no one should try and mislead people by claiming that the second coming of Christ is already an accomplished fact.
Well, we missed the first coming, and the second coming, and the third coming, and the fourth coming, etc.

Jesus appeared many times after His resurrection, to the apostles and many others, on the road, in the room.

Saul/Paul on the road.

But they weren't resurrection comings, there are only 2 resurrections 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

Jesus was the first, the second rapt/resurrection has not happened yet. (Then it is the end)


There has never been a time of UNIVERSAL MOURNING AND LAMENTATION as the world inhabitants have literally (visibly) seen Christ coming with power and great glory.
Oh no? The sign of His coming at the dest of Jerusalem was Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The sign of His coming for the 2nd resur is the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel.

Israel is restored to Jerusalem at the present.

And nobody around the world is upset except, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Russia, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, Somalia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Every Islamic nation in the world, Nazi's, supremacists, Shall I go on?

They are all mourning Israel's restoration.


So His having already come is complete nonsense, since this world would have been purified and perfected completely had He already come.
After Jesus comes at the 2nd resurrection, this world will be fire, and we will be standing before Jesus at the last judgment.

This world can never be perfect, as long as there is flesh.


Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:64).

Acts 7:56....................

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30).
.......................
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
5,521
140
63
#52
Please go to the thread "end times", Page 5, post 86.

These verses are about the end of the times of the gentiles and the restoration of Jerusalem.
I read that post, It do not say at 70 AD Jesus come destroy temple.

Roman army, not Jesus who destroy temple at 70, how you say Jesus come destroy temple? If Jesus come to destroy temple, He do not need an army. He just speak, It more than enough to destroy the whole world, not only temple.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,601
59
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#53
I read that post, It do not say at 70 AD Jesus come destroy temple.
You are right, but you didn't ask about that.

That post was about those specific verses.

Notice the mention of the eagles v 28 (KJV), the emblem of Rome.

Roman army, not Jesus who destroy temple at 70, how you say Jesus come destroy temple? If Jesus come to destroy temple, He do not need an army. He just speak, It more than enough to destroy the whole world, not only temple.
How could Rome destroy Jerusalem, with God protecting Jerusalem?

No army could.

It was the withdrawing of God's protection that allowed Rome to destroy Jerusalem.

Jesus compared it to the flood of Noah's day.

In the OT God brought armies against His people when they disobeyed Him See Ezek 38:4.

In this case Jesus said that these things would happen as the result of Israel rejecting Him and the gospel kingdom.

So if Jesus said that they would happen, then it was His will.

If it was His will, then He caused them to come, to do His will.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
5,521
140
63
#56
You are right, but you didn't ask about that.

That post was about those specific verses.

Notice the mention of the eagles v 28 (KJV), the emblem of Rome.



How could Rome destroy Jerusalem, with God protecting Jerusalem?

No army could.

It was the withdrawing of God's protection that allowed Rome to destroy Jerusalem.

Jesus compared it to the flood of Noah's day.

In the OT God brought armies against His people when they disobeyed Him See Ezek 38:4.

In this case Jesus said that these things would happen as the result of Israel rejecting Him and the gospel kingdom.

So if Jesus said that they would happen, then it was His will.

If it was His will, then He caused them to come, to do His will.
so when matt 24 :26-30 happen ? In the first century or not happen yet?

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
Nov 6, 2017
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#60
To understand what the 7 thunders said, you must turn to the parallel passage in Daniel 12:5-7.
No need to go further, this is not something that can be rightly divided, for a voice told John not to write them down.