Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

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MarcR

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Feb 12, 2015
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Zec 14 was fulfilled during the Maccabees Revolt in the 2nd century BC.
During the Maccabean revolt :

1) only the Seleucid branch of Alexandre's empire was involved NOT ALL NATIONS
2) The nation of Israel Did not look on the crucified Jesus at His second coming and turn to him en mass.
3) All nations of the earth were NOT compelled to come to Jerusalem and observe the feast of Tabernacles (Jesus birthday).
4) There is no rift valley to show where the Mount of Olives tore apart.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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What has not been fulfilled is:

1) God defending Israel against all nations that come against her
Brother MarcR,

Let me get to the rest of them tomorrow.


How does Jesus fight against His enemies? (Gospel sword)

In the past it was spirits of fear and confusion, blindness and plague. Is that the kind of defense of Israel that you are thinking about?

Maybe a great army of men and missiles, tanks and jets. To bomb and kill all those who threaten Israel and Jerusalem.

Hey, maybe both.

--

But then, all Jesus has to do is speak the words, right? He is the creator, why does He even need swords and guns, planes and plague, blindness and confusion? Why not just speak in words in the defense of Jerusalem?

Well He has, spoken His Words in defense of Israel and Jerusalem, in the scriptures and the NT.

And that is the weapon that we use in this world, the gospel sword, His weapon of choice that strikes the heart.

Please look at the results of the gospel sword over history. It has shaped the world that we live in today. Through trial and death it has prevailed. It has changed the course of mankind, steering mankind to the truth. Saving souls, victory after victory, even in the darkest of times.

--

Heb 12:22, You might also say that the kingdom, wild and natural branches, is the new Jerusalem, and His gospel sword defends us as well.

--

What is your understand of how Jesus defends Israel?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Brother MarcR,

Let me get to the rest of them tomorrow.


How does Jesus fight against His enemies? (Gospel sword)

In the past it was spirits of fear and confusion, blindness and plague. Is that the kind of defense of Israel that you are thinking about?

Maybe a great army of men and missiles, tanks and jets. To bomb and kill all those who threaten Israel and Jerusalem.

Hey, maybe both.

--

But then, all Jesus has to do is speak the words, right? He is the creator, why does He even need swords and guns, planes and plague, blindness and confusion? Why not just speak in words in the defense of Jerusalem?

Well He has, spoken His Words in defense of Israel and Jerusalem, in the scriptures and the NT.

And that is the weapon that we use in this world, the gospel sword, His weapon of choice that strikes the heart.

Please look at the results of the gospel sword over history. It has shaped the world that we live in today. Through trial and death it has prevailed. It has changed the course of mankind, steering mankind to the truth. Saving souls, victory after victory, even in the darkest of times.

--

Heb 12:22, You might also say that the kingdom, wild and natural branches, is the new Jerusalem, and His gospel sword defends us as well.

--

What is your understand of how Jesus defends Israel?

1948, 1967!
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Brother MarcR,

If those 2 dates are supposed to be fulfillment of Zech ch 14, 14:3, then how is it that the city is taken v 2, half the people go into captivity v 2, people are fleeing v 5, when Jesus returns?

Why would they flee from Jesus?

Are you saying that when Jesus comes for the kingdom, that He will have to use military force like guns, etc?

The people were already fleeing at the mid trib, so the woman could be in the wilderness of the gentile nations for the 3 1/2 T's, now they must flee again, at the end of the 7 years?

========

This date, 1967, is significant, because that is when the times of the gentiles (ToG's) ended.

The times of the gentiles trampling Jerusalem is not some future event, but has already been completed. All that is required for the ToG's to be ended is that Jerusalem must be under the military control of Israel Lk 21:20-24, 24.

The ToG's were from 70 ad until 1967.

The end of the ToG's means that the prophecies surrounding Israel and Jerusalem can now be completed.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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During the Maccabean revolt :

1) only the Seleucid branch of Alexandre's empire was involved NOT ALL NATIONS
2) The nation of Israel Did not look on the crucified Jesus at His second coming and turn to him en mass.
3) All nations of the earth were NOT compelled to come to Jerusalem and observe the feast of Tabernacles (Jesus birthday).
4) There is no rift valley to show where the Mount of Olives tore apart.
A common trait of all futurists is a lack of historical knowledge.

1) In explicit fulfillment of Zechariah 14:2, 2 Maccabees says that the Seleucid army that attacked the Maccabees during the Maccabean Wars consisted of Gentiles from “all the nations” (2 Maccabees 8:9).

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Ptolemy promptly appointed Nicanor son of Patroclus, one of the king’s chief Friends, and sent him, in command of no fewer than twenty thousand Gentiles of all nations, to wipe out the whole race of Judea.

2) The crucified Christ is not mentioned anywhere in Zec 14.

3) In Zechariah 14:16-19 the Jews are called to hold to the Feast of Tabernacles. A new Feast of Tabernacles was instituted during the Maccabean Wars to celebrate the miracle that occurred at the rededication of the Temple. Called the Feast of Tabernacles in the Book of Maccabees, this holiday is better known today as Hanukah. 2 Maccabees 10 decrees that the Jews are to celebrate this new Feast of Tabernacles from then on.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore, carrying ivy-wreathed wands and beautiful branches and also fronds of palm, they offered hymns of thanksgiving to him who had given success to the purifying of his own holy place. [SUP]8 [/SUP]They decreed by public edict, ratified by vote, that the whole nation of the Jews should observe these days every year. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Such then was the end of Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes.

In fact, echoing Zechariah 14:18-19, 2 Maccabees was addressed to the Jews in Egypt (Egypt is specifically named in Zec 14) to remind them to continue to celebrate this new Feast of Tabernacles.

The Jews in Jerusalem and those in the land of Judea,
to their Jewish kindred in Egypt, Greetings and true peace.

The "earth" is often used to describe scattered Israel, thus the "families of the earth" are the tribes of Israel wherever they may be. In Revelation, John's references to "earth" most often applies to the Jewish race wherever they may be.

4) Zechariah 14:4 predicts that the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west. Confirmation of the fulfillment of this verse is found in the fact that the Mt. of Olives is split in two today:



You aren't going to stump a preterist. Do we have everything figured out? No, but we have far more figured out than any futurist. You are futurists because you lack historical knowledge. We are preterists because we have studied history;);), I for one continue to study it.


 
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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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What has not been fulfilled is:

2) Israel as a nation accepting Jesus as Messiah

I don't believe that Israel will accept Jesus as the Messiah, as a nation.

I think that there will be significant numbers that accept Jesus, but as a nation, no.

That is why Jerusalem will soon fall to the kings of the east (Iran) and the gentile nations as shown in the 7th trumpet, the 2 witnesses, and Rev 20:8-9.

This is Israel's last chance to accept the gospel kingdom, they will not. That is why Jerusalem falls this one last time.

Then Jesus will come for the kingdom and this world ends.

The scripture about being pierced was fulfilled when Jesus died and the believers mourned Jn 19:36-37.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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AB,

Well, old Jo was there, and you use him as evidence all the time, but apparently he left out that all the people in Jerusalem were resurrected after 3 1/2 days.
All the people of Jerusalem? Where is that written? They aren't the witnesses, they are the apostates about to be slaughtered and led away captive.

Your next sections are all speculation.

We are changed, it doesn't explain the tech aspects.


Describe the change which occurs to a person upon salvation today? Is there any visible outward change? Paul calls us "new creations." Something clearly has changed if we are NEW CREATIONS. Think about it. Since Paul uses the term "new creations" to describe the change which occurs at salvation, and he is the one who wrote 1 Cor 15 and a change is found there.... Connect the dots.

It doesn't say that. What about Jesus? His body was molecular, how did his physical body turn into spirit?

Christ's physical body turned back into spirit upon re-entering Heaven. That's why Paul (on the road to Damascus) saw Him as a very bright light and not as a man. Only Christ's body never saw corruption. David mentions this and it's repeated by Peter in Acts. According to Peter, David's tomb and by inference, body, is still with them today. This comment was made after Christ's resurrection.

You don't inherit the kingdom until this life is over.


Verse please?

But the hvn and easth passing in Rev 20 is not the one of 70 ad


Yes it is. Peter says so in 2 Peter 3. He puts the time he's discussing in his very near future. Compare 2 Peter 3 to Acts 2. Same author, same term, "LAST DAYS."

"...knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts..."

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh..."


Peter is discussing the judgment to come upon (apostate) Israel in his very near future.

Let's stop here and let this sink in.



 

MarcR

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Feb 12, 2015
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Brother MarcR,

If those 2 dates are supposed to be fulfillment of Zech ch 14, 14:3, then how is it that the city is taken v 2, half the people go into captivity v 2, people are fleeing v 5, when Jesus returns?

Why would they flee from Jesus?

Are you saying that when Jesus comes for the kingdom, that He will have to use military force like guns, etc?

The people were already fleeing at the mid trib, so the woman could be in the wilderness of the gentile nations for the 3 1/2 T's, now they must flee again, at the end of the 7 years?

========

This date, 1967, is significant, because that is when the times of the gentiles (ToG's) ended.

The times of the gentiles trampling Jerusalem is not some future event, but has already been completed. All that is required for the ToG's to be ended is that Jerusalem must be under the military control of Israel Lk 21:20-24, 24.

The ToG's were from 70 ad until 1967.

The end of the ToG's means that the prophecies surrounding Israel and Jerusalem can now be completed.
Those dates were not suggested as fulfillment of anything. They are only my understanding of how God defends Israel.

Fulfillment will occur when Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives and it is torn apart leaving a valley between the parts.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
A common trait of all futurists is a lack of historical knowledge.

1) In explicit fulfillment of Zechariah 14:2, 2 Maccabees says that the Seleucid army that attacked the Maccabees during the Maccabean Wars consisted of Gentiles from “all the nations” (2 Maccabees 8:9).

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Ptolemy promptly appointed Nicanor son of Patroclus, one of the king’s chief Friends, and sent him, in command of no fewer than twenty thousand Gentiles of all nations, to wipe out the whole race of Judea.

2) The crucified Christ is not mentioned anywhere in Zec 14.

3) In Zechariah 14:16-19 the Jews are called to hold to the Feast of Tabernacles. A new Feast of Tabernacles was instituted during the Maccabean Wars to celebrate the miracle that occurred at the rededication of the Temple. Called the Feast of Tabernacles in the Book of Maccabees, this holiday is better known today as Hanukah. 2 Maccabees 10 decrees that the Jews are to celebrate this new Feast of Tabernacles from then on.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore, carrying ivy-wreathed wands and beautiful branches and also fronds of palm, they offered hymns of thanksgiving to him who had given success to the purifying of his own holy place. [SUP]8 [/SUP]They decreed by public edict, ratified by vote, that the whole nation of the Jews should observe these days every year. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Such then was the end of Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes.

In fact, echoing Zechariah 14:18-19, 2 Maccabees was addressed to the Jews in Egypt (Egypt is specifically named in Zec 14) to remind them to continue to celebrate this new Feast of Tabernacles.

The Jews in Jerusalem and those in the land of Judea,
to their Jewish kindred in Egypt, Greetings and true peace.

The "earth" is often used to describe scattered Israel, thus the "families of the earth" are the tribes of Israel wherever they may be. In Revelation, John's references to "earth" most often applies to the Jewish race wherever they may be.

4) Zechariah 14:4 predicts that the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west. Confirmation of the fulfillment of this verse is found in the fact that the Mt. of Olives is split in two today:



You aren't going to stump a preterist. Do we have everything figured out? No, but we have far more figured out than any futurist. You are futurists because you lack historical knowledge. We are preterists because we have studied history;);), I for one continue to study it.


Although I will agree with some of what you say, about the time line, the date of the living waters (Holy Spirit, day of Pentecost) and Jesus stepping on the Mt. of Olives places those events at the 30-33 ad coming of Jesus and the Holy Spirit kingdom.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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Salvation does include being delivered from the wrath to come.

But the wrath of God does not come upon the rebellious until after the 7 years period is over.

The 6 trumpets are not the wrath of God,but warnings to the world to get right with God,but after the 6th trumpet they do not turn to God,so He gives them the man of sin to rule over them,and deceive all people that do not love God.

An example is WW1,did not turn to God,set up League of Nations,WW2,did not turn to God,set up United Nations,and that pattern will continue until God gives them the man of sin to rule over them,which God gave them a chance to turn to Him,for God gives them a chance to repent before He goes against them,like Sodom and Gomorrah,with the 2 angels in the form of men,He gave them a chance,and they blew it,so God overthrew them.

When they take the mark of the beast them repentance,and salvation,is no longer available to those that follow the beast,and God will end this sin business on earth.

That is why the Bible says the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,which this is the condition of the world in response to accepting the truth of the Gospel,and allowing it to be preached in the world,which the time will come that they will not endure the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,and fundamental Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth,and at the end of three and one half years the transgressors will have come to the full,and then a king of fierce countenance,and understanding dark sentences shall stand up,and deceive all who do not love God,and the man of sin claims to be God by convincing the world he harnessed the power of nature,and obtained power,evolved.

Then the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

For the first three and one half years repentance,and salvation,is still available to the world,so the saints will remain on earth,and the wrath of God is not poured upon the world.

The beast has power to rule for the last three and one half years,and has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and makes war against the saints,and prevails against them,and shall destroy the mighty and holy people,and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and when he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things shall be finished.

So the wrath of God is not at the last three and one half years for the beast has power to rule for that time,and if the wrath of God was at that time then how does not beast have power to rule during that time,and the saints are still on earth.

At the end of the three and one half years all the saints that remain shall be gathered unto Christ,and then the wrath of God is poured upon the earth.
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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AB,



All the people of Jerusalem? Where is that written?


Brother PlainWord,

Rev 11:11-12.

They aren't the witnesses, they are the apostates about to be slaughtered and led away captive.
Tell me then, who are the 2 witnesses if it is not the people of Israel?

The problem is, that no matter who it is, (it is the people of Israel, believers), that there is a resurrection that is witnessed by the Roman beast and the kings of the east from across the Euphrates.

Although you quote old Jo as fact, you don't see any references to a resurrection. As much as he recorded, you would think that he would have mentioned that.

Your not going to make the 70 ad dest fit into the 7th trumpet. Look, I've tried to do it myself, I've been through this thought process before. The 7 trumpets are what comes after 70 ad, and the 7th trumpet is Jesus coming for the kingdom Rev 11:15, and the end of this planet.

Understand that the Jerusalem pictured at the 7th trumpet, is the one that you see today. Jerusalem restored after the ToG's have ended. This time Israel and Jerusalem will not be fleeing. It will be the end of flesh Israel on this planet.

The resurrection shown is yet to come, it is the rapt/resur coming, the second coming for salvation.

Not the coming to destroy Jerusalem with Roman armies. That was not salvation of any kind for the people of Jerusalem in 70 ad.


Your next sections are all speculation.


Keep trying.


Describe the change which occurs to a person upon salvation today?
Acts 2:38


Is there any visible outward change? Paul calls us "new creations."
The lion lies down with the lamb.


Something clearly has changed if we are NEW CREATIONS. Think about it. Since Paul uses the term "new creations" to describe the change which occurs at salvation, and he is the one who wrote 1 Cor 15 and a change is found there.... Connect the dots.


1 Cor 15:50, Paul is saying that to inherit the kingdom we must be completely spiritual beings to completely bear the image of Jesus. We must physically die first.

Yes we bear His image through the Holy Spirit, but not like we will when we get our new bodies, right? After death?


Christ's physical body turned back into spirit upon re-entering Heaven.
So the same thing happens with us, right?


That's why Paul (on the road to Damascus) saw Him as a very bright light and not as a man. Only Christ's body never saw corruption. David mentions this and it's repeated by Peter in Acts. According to Peter, David's tomb and by inference, body, is still with them today. This comment was made after Christ's resurrection.


Do we look like Jesus did when Saul/Paul saw Him, right now? What you are saying is that if this is all 70 ad, and we bear the image of Jesus right now, we should be in the glory of Jesus in this material world, right now.


Verse please?
Matt 25:31-46, 34, You have to be physically dead to inherit the kingdom.



Yes it is. Peter says so in 2 Peter 3. He puts the time he's discussing in his very near future. Compare 2 Peter 3 to Acts 2. Same author, same term, "LAST DAYS."

"...knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts..."

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh..."


Peter is discussing the judgment to come upon (apostate) Israel in his very near future.
Yes 70 ad, those scriptures are about that.

But that doesn't prove that Rev 20:7-9 is 70 ad., you are going under a preconceived theory that this surrounding is the one of 70 ad.. Again I will tell you that Rev 20 won't fit the context of the 70 ad time line.

Let's stop here and let this sink in.
.......................
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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What has not been fulfilled is:

1) God defending Israel against all nations that come against her
2) Israel as a nation accepting Jesus as Messiah
3) all nations required to observe the feast of tabernacles.
4) the Mount of Olives splitting and forming a rift valley

there is more but that will get you started.
Brother MarcR,

"All nations", define all nations.

Every single nation on planet earth? Or every nation known at the time of the writing? Or almost every nation?

Israel was already required to keep the feasts, do you mean every single gentile nation on the planet?

==============

I already did give you an answer on this. The valley shows the way of salvation for the dest of Jerusalem and eternal salvation, it is not literal.

Again I must point out that the people at fleeing at this time. Fleeing away from Jesus instead towards Him and eternal salvation.

If you believed the prophecies of Jesus concerning the dest of Jeru, then you would know enough to flee the 70 ad dest of Jeru and Israel. Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21, etc.

That was the escape through the valley.

But this also shows eternal salvation, the living waters are the Holy Spirit that flows from Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

You might say that the living waters are still flowing today through us, the new Jerusalem.

So with some symbolism shown in this passage, it is probable that the valley is symbolic.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
Salvation does include being delivered from the wrath to come.

But the wrath of God does not come upon the rebellious until after the 7 years period is over.

The 6 trumpets are not the wrath of God,but warnings to the world to get right with God,but after the 6th trumpet they do not turn to God,so He gives them the man of sin to rule over them,and deceive all people that do not love God.

An example is WW1,did not turn to God,set up League of Nations,WW2,did not turn to God,set up United Nations,and that pattern will continue until God gives them the man of sin to rule over them,which God gave them a chance to turn to Him,for God gives them a chance to repent before He goes against them,like Sodom and Gomorrah,with the 2 angels in the form of men,He gave them a chance,and they blew it,so God overthrew them.

When they take the mark of the beast them repentance,and salvation,is no longer available to those that follow the beast,and God will end this sin business on earth.

That is why the Bible says the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,which this is the condition of the world in response to accepting the truth of the Gospel,and allowing it to be preached in the world,which the time will come that they will not endure the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,and fundamental Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth,and at the end of three and one half years the transgressors will have come to the full,and then a king of fierce countenance,and understanding dark sentences shall stand up,and deceive all who do not love God,and the man of sin claims to be God by convincing the world he harnessed the power of nature,and obtained power,evolved.

Then the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

For the first three and one half years repentance,and salvation,is still available to the world,so the saints will remain on earth,and the wrath of God is not poured upon the world.

The beast has power to rule for the last three and one half years,and has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and makes war against the saints,and prevails against them,and shall destroy the mighty and holy people,and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and when he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things shall be finished.

So the wrath of God is not at the last three and one half years for the beast has power to rule for that time,and if the wrath of God was at that time then how does not beast have power to rule during that time,and the saints are still on earth.

At the end of the three and one half years all the saints that remain shall be gathered unto Christ,and then the wrath of God is poured upon the earth.
Brother MattforJesus,

The 7 times are not 7 years. They expressed as symbolic months and days, but are in the context of symbolic passages.

The 7 times are the same time shown in the statue of Daniel 2. This is the time from Babylon until Israel is restored to Jerusalem 1967.

Both the 2 witnesses and the woman of Rev ch 12, are showing the same time, 70 ad until 1967, when Israel is scattered among the gentile nations, the second 3 1/2t's.

The first 3 1/2t's is Babylon until 70 ad. when the power is scattered. Dan. 12.

The second 3 1/2t's is from 70 ad until 1967. Then the statue ends.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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151
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Although I will agree with some of what you say, about the time line, the date of the living waters (Holy Spirit, day of Pentecost) and Jesus stepping on the Mt. of Olives places those events at the 30-33 ad coming of Jesus and the Holy Spirit kingdom.
It doesn't say Jesus stands on the Mt of Olives, it says the LORD does. God the Father is AKA "the Lord" most often in the OT. Verse 5 makes it clear, "Thus the Lord my God will come..."

As for "living waters" this phrase also refers to our Father in the OT. See Jer 2:13:

“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water.

and Jer 17:13:

O Lord, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. “Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters.”

So when you read Zec 14:8, it is God's blessing which are flowing throughout the Land following the defeat of Antiochus Epiphanes IV. Now read Zec 14:8-9 in the correct context:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be King over all the earth (ISRAEL).

Zechariah, a most colorfully written book filled with figurative language, contains in CH-14 almost a mirror of the creation language used in Genesis whereby Israel is again re-established in its place follow their defeat by the Greeks. The re-establishment of the practice of the Law after the temple desecration is told in the image of creation of the "heavens and earth" as this was really a re-birth of Israel with the divine help of God, the Father.

If you read the Book of Maccabees (which you won't), you will see that total credit was given to God for their success. Zechariah ends with, "
In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts." Interestingly, it was about this time that Canaanites ceased to live in Israel.

Zechariah, being an OT prophet, has nothing to say about events AFTER Christ. After all, Israel came to an end in 70 AD and remained dead for nearly 2 millennia. Therefore, Zechariah had nothing more to say after 70 AD which is pretty much the case for the rest of the Bible, not counting spiritual details, etc, as we've discussed.




 
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MarcR

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Feb 12, 2015
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It doesn't say Jesus stands on the Mt of Olives, it says the LORD does. God the Father is AKA "the Lord" most often in the OT. Verse 5 makes it clear, "Thus the Lord my God will come..."

As for "living waters" this phrase also refers to our Father in the OT. See Jer 2:13:

“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water.

and Jer 17:13:

O Lord, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. “Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters.”

So when you read Zec 14:8, it is God's blessing which are flowing throughout the Land following the defeat of Antiochus Epiphanes IV. Now read Zec 14:8-9 in the correct context:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be King over all the earth (ISRAEL).

Zechariah, a most colorfully written book filled with figurative language, contains in CH-14 almost a mirror of the creation language used in Genesis whereby Israel is again re-established in its place follow their defeat by the Greeks. The re-establishment of the practice of the Law after the temple desecration is told in the image of creation of the "heavens and earth" as this was really a re-birth of Israel with the divine help of God, the Father.

If you read the Book of Maccabees (which you won't), you will see that total credit was given to God for their success. Zechariah ends with, "
In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts." Interestingly, it was about this time that Canaanites ceased to live in Israel.

Zechariah, being an OT prophet, has nothing to say about events AFTER Christ. After all, Israel came to an end in 70 AD and remained dead for nearly 2 millennia. Therefore, Zechariah had nothing more to say after 70 AD which is pretty much the case for the rest of the Bible, not counting spiritual details, etc, as we've discussed.






We are not likely to convince each other; but I see the second coming addressed in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea Joel, Daniel, and Zechariah. Therefore our readings of Mat 24, and Revelation will be quite different.
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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It doesn't say Jesus stands on the Mt of Olives, it says the LORD does. God the Father is AKA "the Lord" most often in the OT. Verse 5 makes it clear, "Thus the Lord my God will come..."


Brother PW,

Jesus is Lord, right? Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in Jesus, right? Jn 14:10.



As for "living waters" this phrase also refers to our Father in the OT. See Jer 2:13:

“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water.

and Jer 17:13:

O Lord, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. “Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters.”
Remember these verses when you see the fountains of the waters in the trumpets and vials in Rev.


So when you read Zec 14:8, it is God's blessing which are flowing throughout the Land following the defeat of Antiochus Epiphanes IV. Now read Zec 14:8-9 in the correct context:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be King over all the earth (ISRAEL).


It just sounds more like a Pentecost Holy Spirit kingdom prophecy to me. Where we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and then it flowed out to the gentile nations, the seas.

Zechariah, a most colorfully written book filled with figurative language, contains in CH-14 almost a mirror of the creation language used in Genesis whereby Israel is again re-established in its place follow their defeat by the Greeks. The re-establishment of the practice of the Law after the temple desecration is told in the image of creation of the "heavens and earth" as this was really a re-birth of Israel with the divine help of God, the Father.
So heaven and earth passed away at that time?

If you read the Book of Maccabees (which you won't),
Good grief brother PW, why wouldn't I read it?

you will see that total credit was given to God for their success. Zechariah ends with, "
In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts." Interestingly, it was about this time that Canaanites ceased to live in Israel.


God deserves all the credit for all the blessings in this life.

Zechariah, being an OT prophet, has nothing to say about events AFTER Christ.
Any prophecies about the Holy Spirit Pentecost kingdom would extend to us today.

After all, Israel came to an end in 70 AD and remained dead for nearly 2 millennia.
Wake up! Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

Therefore, Zechariah had nothing more to say after 70 AD which is pretty much the case for the rest of the Bible,
(Is that what the book that you are reading said?)

not counting spiritual details, etc, as we've discussed.
The spiritual details are the most important part!

The details are what shows that pre trib and pure preterism are both not quite right.

And I will tell you again, both theories leave out the fact that the iron legs/toes are Rome after the fall of Jerusalem.

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The pretribs cannot admit that the iron legs existed as the RCC 700 years ago. Why? Because that would show that the Bishop of Rome (BoR), is the Antichrist.
Pre trib is designed to hide the BoR as the Antichrist. Pre trib says, "He hasn't been revealed yet, so it can't be him." All the time ignoring the fact, that the iron legs are continual, they don't stop and start up again.

Who is the iron nation right now?

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The preterists, don't realize that they are actually teaching a form of doctrine of the RCC, basically, Caesar was the Antichrist and everything ended there, beast and all. So the BoR can't be the Antichrist, cause it was Caesar.

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You see, the correct view is that the iron legs/toes have been here all the time. First as Caesar, yes, but then continued as the RCC.

Hidden to the whole world, claiming to be the Holy Father, forgiving sins (ahead of time), approving the deaths of millions of Israelites over 1500 years.

Oh yes, he is the Antichrist, but both pretrib and preterism hide him.

Well designed theories by the Roman iron dragon beast.

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But now the Roman Antichrist has a big problem. Israel is restored to Jerusalem. But wait, The RCC claims to be the only true church/kingdom/Israel, the RCC is Israel now, they have replaced Israel. That is the problem, as long as Israel exists, the RCC can't be the one and only Israel any more.

And that is why the RCC must destroy Israel. How? With the powers of the kings of the east, across the Euphrates, the RCC, will deceive them into attacking Jerusalem.
 
Aug 8, 2017
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What do you mean by deliverance. Do you mean we will not see the day of his wrath? Cause we will or should I say we are. But it's not hurting our spiritual being, the wrath will passover us
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Hi gdyloves,

The question seems to be what is meant by deliverance, at what is meant by wrath.

Some say that the wrath is the 7 times trib, others say that it is the wrath of the 2nd death.

Some say that they are delivered from wrath by the rapture/resurrection (rapt/resur), before the trib.

Others say that the deliverance is from the wrath of the second death.

A close examination of the scriptures offered and their context will show the answers.

Happy reading!