Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

[PlainWord]

Mat 24 begins with a prediction of the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple.

The expulsion of the Jews from the Holy Land in 71-72 AD can be seen as a partial fulfillment of much of Mat 24.

I agree that it is hard to make a case for Jesus having returned in 70A.D. and even harder to make a case for a millenniel reign of Jesus having occurred. I don't think even the Preterists attempt that.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Let's see, there were Roman solders present in 70 AD young enough to have been "those who pierced Him," can that be said today?

 

[MarcR]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Let's see, there were Roman solders present in 70 AD young enough to have been "those who pierced Him," can that be said today?

If you believe that the Roman soldiers were responsible for Jesus' death, your argument makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that the Roman soldiers were responsible for Jesus' death, they were only instruments in God's hand.

The sin of mankind including your sin and mine is responsible for Jesus death.

Pilate had no desire for Jesus' death. The Pharisees and Saducees, who were the religious and political leaders of Israel desired His death for purely political motives. therefore even they who pierced Him refers to the Jewish nation; but NOT the Jewish people any more than the rest of us.

 

[MarcR]

If you believe that the Roman soldiers were responsible for Jesus' death, your argument makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that the Roman soldiers were responsible for Jesus' death, they were only instruments in God's hand.

The sin of mankind including your sin and mine is responsible for Jesus death.

Pilate had no desire for Jesus' death. The Pharisees and Saducees, who were the religious and political leaders of Israel desired His death for purely political motives. therefore even they who pierced Him refers to the Jewish nation; but NOT the Jewish people any more than the rest of us.

Zec 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV

 

[abcdef]

Zec 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV

Brother MarcR, Zec 12:10,

Isn't this a picture of Jesus' crucifixion, Jn 19:37? And the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost?

The Holy Spirit would be the spirit of grace and supplications.

The ones who mourned for Jesus would be the apostles and all the believers of that day.

See that in the next chapter Zec 13:1, it also speaks of the day of Pentecost and the coming of the fountain for sin at that time.

Also notice the symbolism used here.

--

I can't see any thing here that has not already been fulfilled.

What do you think?

 

[OtherWay210]

Those who are delivered, are not done so in a physical sense from the trib, . Its from Gods wrath, because Christians performed as scripture says, do not worship Satan. That is the only way during the trib to escape Gods wrath . No where, in the bible does it say a believer is removed from the trials of the end time Deception .

 

[PlainWord]

If you believe that the Roman soldiers were responsible for Jesus' death, your argument makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that the Roman soldiers were responsible for Jesus' death, they were only instruments in God's hand.

The sin of mankind including your sin and mine is responsible for Jesus death.

Pilate had no desire for Jesus' death. The Pharisees and Saducees, who were the religious and political leaders of Israel desired His death for purely political motives. therefore even they who pierced Him refers to the Jewish nation; but NOT the Jewish people any more than the rest of us.

Agreed. If we take it the way you suggest, it would be the religious Jewish leaders of Christ's day who were responsible. Most of them were dead by 70 AD, the top ones anyway. The rest of the Jewish priests were slaughtered by Titus after he took the Temple and they came to beg for their lives. Thus ALL Jewish religious leaders were dead by the end of 70 AD so we could say, Christ got His vengeance, which is the word used, i.e. " [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Lk 21.

If we take it literally, as in the actual Roman solders who pierced Him, they theoretically could have been present and among Titus' troops and they could have seen Him ~70 AD. The text is very specific. It isn't those who crucified Him or had Him crucified, it was those who pierced Him which were totally different people. Either way, the verse implies that multiple people directly involved with Christ's death would see Him return (and be subject to vengeance).

What is abundantly clear is that this passage could not refer to people thousands of years into the future that had nothing to do with it. Let's say your great, great, great, great grandfather many generations ago was a mass murderer. Would you expect God to punish you for his sins? Of course not. All those involved from Judas on down paid a price for killing the Son of God.

 

[PlainWord]

Zec 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV

This is an 70 AD passage just as Zec 11 and 13 are. So, yes, the Rev 1:7 passage is referring to the Jewish leaders and not the Roman solders "who pierced Him." Again, all Jewish religious leaders who remained were killed. If you read on into Zec 13, you will see that all the false prophets, of which their were many ~70 AD, were killed. 2/3 of the remaining population of Jerusalem were killed by Titus and his men, while the remaining 1/3, 98,000, must have repented and where brought through the fires of the great tribulation and were spared, acknowledging the Lord as their God.

 

[PlainWord]

Brother AB,

The kingdom cannot be delivered up to the Father until it is complete, since souls are still being added, it cannot be complete yet.

Where do you find that souls can no longer be added before the kingdom can be delivered? I think you are misunderstanding 1 Cor 15:24. There are two "Hes" mentioned in this passage which I included below, the Father and the Son Jesus.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end (of ISRAEL in 70 AD), when He (JESUS) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He (FATHER) puts an end to all (Jewish religious) rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He (FATHER) must reign till He (FATHER) has put all enemies under His (JESUS) feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death (SPIRITUAL DEATH i.e. SEPARATION FROM GOD). [SUP]27 [/SUP]For “He (FATHER) has put all things under His (JESUS) feet.” But when He (FATHER) says “all things are put under Him (JESUS),” it is evident that He (FATHER) who put all things under Him (JESUS) is excepted. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when all things are made subject to Him (JESUS), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him (FATHER) who put all things under Him (JESUS), that God (BOTH) may be all in all.

First take this passage, which appears a bunch of time starting in Psm 110, and understand it:

The Lord (FATHER) said to my Lord (JESUS), “Sit at My (FATHER) right hand, Till I make Your (JESUS) enemies Your (JESUS) footstool.”

Thus it is God, the FATHER, who weakens the enemies of Jesus turning them impotent before Christ defeats them. This now begs the question, "Who were the enemies of Christ?" We find the answer in several places including the parable of the minas from Lk 19, where Jesus is comparing the nobleman (about to receive a kingdom) to Himself:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’” [SUP]28 [/SUP]When He had said this, He went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem.

Who did not want Christ to reign over them? Who said this?

Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!”

In reality, what happened when Titus met all the priests of Israel? This from "War of the Jews" 6-6-1.

On the fifth day afterward, the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards, they begged for their lives; but he replied, that the time of pardon was over as to them, and that this very holy house, on whose account only they could justly hope to be preserved, was destroyed; and that it was agreeable to their office that priests should perish with the house itself to which they belonged. So he ordered them to be put to death.

Thus every last priest of Israel was put to death by Caesar Titus having sworn their allegiance to each previous Caesar over Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

For those futurists who hold that the below is future, Josephus disagrees:

Lk 21:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.

Did we have distress in the land in 70 AD? We sure did.
Did they fall by the sword? They sure did.
Where they led away captive into all nations? Josephus says they were.

So this Fronto slew all those that had been seditious and robbers, who were impeached one by another; but of the young men he chose out the tallest and most beautiful, and reserved them for the triumph; and as for the rest of the multitude that were above seventeen years old, he put them into bonds, and sent them to the Egyptian mines Titus also sent a great number into the provinces, as a present to them, that they might be destroyed upon their theatres, by the sword and by the wild beasts; but those that were under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. (War 6-9-2).

So since everything in Luke 21 can be found in the historical record in the era of 70 AD, what makes you think these events are future? If Lk 21 is discussing a future event then where is the 70 AD event found?

 

[abcdef]

Brother AB,



Where do you find that souls can no longer be added before the kingdom can be delivered?

1 Cor 15:23-28,

1. 1st resurrection, Jesus first fruits

2. Those who are his at his coming

3. Death is destroyed

4. Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father

5. Jesus and the Father are All in All.


After death is destroyed, then the kingdom is delivered up to the Father.

Souls will not be added after death is destroyed because there are no more resurrections after "the one of his coming."

When Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom, then all death will be destroyed, physical and spiritual, after the judgement before the throne. Rev 20:11-15

====

Death is not destroyed yet, there is still both physical and spiritual death at this present time.

====

The kingdom can't get married and leave some souls out, and say that they will be married at a later time, the body of the bride must be complete.

You can't say that they kingdom is delivered up to the Father, and then souls are going to be delivered up to the Father a little at a time after that because that is not what it says.

It shows only one delivery, after death is destroyed.

 

[PlainWord]

It isn't how we read and understand the Bible, it's how they read and understood it. The below are describing the same event, the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the nation of Israel.

Dan 12:

“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.

Mat 24:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Josephus War 6-9-4:

4. Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with. There were also found slain there above two thousand persons, partly by their own hands, and partly by one another, but chiefly destroyed by the famine; but then the ill savor of the dead bodies was most offensive to those that lighted upon them, insomuch that some were obliged to get away immediately, while others were so greedy of gain, that they would go in among the dead bodies that lay on heaps, and tread upon them; for a great deal of treasure was found in these caverns, and the hope of gain made every way of getting it to be esteemed lawful. Many also of those that had been put in prison by the tyrants were now brought out; for they did not leave off their barbarous cruelty at the very last: yet did God avenge himself upon them both, in a manner agreeable to justice.

 

[PlainWord]

1 Cor 15:23-28,

1. 1st resurrection, Jesus first fruits

2. Those who are his at his coming

3. Death is destroyed

4. Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father

5. Jesus and the Father are All in All.

DONE. All happened, circa 70 AD.

Souls will not be added after death is destroyed because there are no more resurrections after "the one of his coming."

Paul begs to differ:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

The resurrection is and was spiritual. Our bodies see corruption, never will they enter heaven.

When Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom, then all death will be destroyed, physical and spiritual, after the judgement before the throne. Rev 20:11-15

Rev 20:11-15 does not say what you claim. It's your interpretation of it.

Isa 59:2: But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

This is what Christ restored, our separation from God which is spiritual death.

The kingdom can't get married and leave some souls out, and say that they will be married at a later time, the body of the bride must be complete.

Who said souls would be left out? Christ married His Bride, the Church, and new souls are being added to the Bride all the time. Was not Israel the Bride of the Father? Did He wait until the last Jew was born?

You can't say that they kingdom is delivered up to the Father, and then souls are going to be delivered up to the Father a little at a time after that because that is not what it says.

Correct, souls are not delivered up one at a time, spiritual beings are. Hades is over for the Believer. We go straight to heaven upon death since 70 AD. The moment a believer comes to Christ, he or she enter the kingdom. The kingdom is spiritual, it does not come with observation. Therefore it is not delivered up with observation, not to us on earth anyway.

 

[davida]

History repeats itself " nothing new under the sun" so to point out past events does not negate the truth of Biblical prophecy and does not prove all prophecy is fulfill!ed.

 

[abcdef]

DONE. All happened, circa 70 AD.

There was no resurrection on the last day of the siege in 70 ad, "And their enemies beheld them."Rev 11

Souls will not be added after death is destroyed because there are no more resurrections after "the one of his coming."

Paul begs to differ:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Well, we still have the same physical body, and we live in the same world when we become Christians. So "all things" are related to the relationship with God, a new creation in God's eyes.

But that is not a resurrection.

A resurrection happens after you are physically dead.

The resurrection is and was spiritual.

But we still die physical death, so death is not destroyed.

The resurrection is not when we become Christians, it is when Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

Our bodies see corruption, never will they enter heaven.

1 Cor 15:51, "we shall all be changed".

Rev 20:11-15 does not say what you claim. It's your interpretation of it.

Heaven and earth fly away from His face Rev 20:11, that hasn't happened yet.

We stand before His throne in Judgment for our words and deeds with everybody, with our "lot"/group Dan 12:13.

Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, that hasn't happened yet. V 10

The dead must be delivered up.

Not 70 ad.

Isa 59:2: But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

This is what Christ restored, our separation from God which is spiritual death.

In this physical life we are still partly separated from God, and cannot be fully one with Him until after we die.

Who said souls would be left out? Christ married His Bride, the Church, and new souls are being added to the Bride all the time. Was not Israel the Bride of the Father? Did He wait until the last Jew was born?

OT Israel is the bride also, but is separate from the Pentecost kingdom.

The souls were in Hades until Jesus' resurrection. So they were the bride, but were not with God like they were after Jesus' resurrection.

In the same way, we are not going to be delivered up to the Father until after we die and go through the judgment, and death is destroyed.

Correct, souls are not delivered up one at a time, spiritual beings are.

Souls are spiritual beings, yes?

Hades is over for the Believer. We go straight to heaven upon death

"We shall not all sleep," 1 Cor 15:51

since 70 AD.

There was no resurrection in 70 ad.

The moment a believer comes to Christ, he or she enter the kingdom. The kingdom is spiritual, it does not come with observation.

True,....... so, the moment a person becomes a Christian, there soul is delivered up to the Father and we see His face?

But no man can see the face of God and live, Ex 33:20, how is it then, that we are still alive?

Therefore it is not delivered up with observation, not to us on earth anyway.

The completed kingdom is not delivered up to the Father until we are all judged, and death is destroyed, Rev 20.

====

Brother PlainWord,

You have really gone off the deep end on this "everything finished by 70 ad." thing.

There are things shown that are post 70 ad., and not fulfilled by then.

We do not see His face now.

The resurrection that happens when Jesus comes for the kingdom has yet to come.

---

Do you fully comprehend to implications of the wedding?

When the virgins enter, the door is shut, there won't be any more entering.

 

[Locutus]

The following is admitted by nearly all scholars to be resurrection language "Abraham etc. sitting down" in the kingdom at the wedding feast.

Notice who Jesus' audience is, 1st century Jewry/Israel, note they say "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence".

This undoubtedly places the events spoken of here in the 1st century:

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

And to give us further evidence of the 1st century fulfillment and application we have the parable of the wedding:

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son

Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Unless there are two "burnings" of "their city" mentioned (which there ain't) then this is proof conclusive that in Luke and Matthew 1st century Jerusalem is the time and city in consideration.

Just as in real estate folks, "location, location, location" both in time and place..

 

[abcdef]

The following is admitted by nearly all scholars to be resurrection language "Abraham etc. sitting down" in the kingdom at the wedding feast.

Notice who Jesus' audience is, 1st century Jewry/Israel, note they say "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence".

Yes, resurrection and the dest of Jerusalem are implied.

This undoubtedly places the events spoken of here in the 1st century:

Some of the events.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

When did the Pharisees strive to enter in? They rejected Jesus and the kingdom. They still did not believe and Jerusalem was destroyed. So they can only strive to get in after their deaths.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

When did they ask to be part of the kingdom? Not before they died.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

At the time this was spoken Abraham etc., were dead. So in order for the Pharisees to see them, they would also have to be dead. So this places the wedding after the dest of Jerusalem. How long after the dest is not specified.

Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

The gentiles sit down, but the wedding is not complete to take place, the rest of the kingdom must arrive.

And to give us further evidence of the 1st century fulfillment and application we have the parable of the wedding:

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son

Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

70 ad, yes.

Unless there are two "burnings" of "their city" mentioned (which there ain't) then this is proof conclusive that in Luke and Matthew 1st century Jerusalem is the time and city in consideration.

I agree, but it doesn't mean that it was the end of the story of Israel and Jerusalem, only that part of the story. Just because this was fulfilled in 70 ad does not exclude all future prophecy fulfillment.

Just as in real estate folks, "location, location, location" both in time and place..

.......................

 

[PlainWord]

AB,

There was no resurrection on the last day of the siege in 70 ad, "And their enemies beheld them."Rev 11

Where you there? There weren't a lot of apostate Jews (their enemies) left to talk about it.

Well, we still have the same physical body, and we live in the same world when we become Christians. So "all things" are related to the relationship with God, a new creation in God's eyes.

But that is not a resurrection.

A resurrection happens after you are physically dead.

Correct. It happened to all those who died before the parousia of Christ at the parousia of Christ. Now it happens instantly when we die. Christ had the keys to Death (spiritual) and Hades (the place souls used to go, and He set the captives free. They are no longer in Hades.

But we still die physical death, so death is not destroyed.

The death Christ destroyed was spiritual death, not physical death. You think so much in the physical world and ignore the spiritual. We are in this physical world for but a brief second compared to eternity. All the action, and really important stuff, for us is in the spiritual realm.

The resurrection is not when we become Christians, it is when Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

Which He did in 70 AD.

1 Cor 15:51, "we shall all be changed".

Changed how? The dead are raised incorruptible, right? This means not one molecule of their old bodies becomes part of their new bodies because corruption (physical bodies) DOES NOT inherit in-corruption (1 Cor 15:50). From dust (we) came to dust (we) return.

So, what is really happening in 1 Cor 15:51? Answer: Redemption, Salvation

Heaven and earth fly away from His face Rev 20:11, that hasn't happened yet.

Yes it did. "Heaven and earth" was 70 AD Israel. John is copying Isaiah's metaphor for Israel (Isa 1:2). Put yourself in their time mentally. They were the chosen of God for 2,000 years until salvation was opened up to the Gentiles. Do you believe the literal Heaven where God dwells fled away from His face? Why on earth (no pun intended) would it do that?

We stand before His throne in Judgment for our words and deeds with everybody, with our "lot"/group Dan 12:13.

Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, that hasn't happened yet. V 10

The dead must be delivered up.

Not 70 ad.

The Dead were judged in 70 AD. Rev 11:18 tells us that the judgment happens along with the wrath and we know the wrath was poured out in 70 AD. 70 AD marked the end of that age, the Mosaic Age at which time everything changed. Now we are judged when we die (Heb 9:27). Our age, the Messianic Age operates under completely different rules.

In this physical life we are still partly separated from God, and cannot be fully one with Him until after we die.

Sure.

OT Israel is the bride also, but is separate from the Pentecost kingdom.

??

In the same way, we are not going to be delivered up to the Father until after we die and go through the judgment, and death is destroyed.

Death (2nd death) is already destroyed for believers. This is the REALLY important death. It is this Death that Christ came to defeat.

Souls are spiritual beings, yes?

Body, Soul, Spirit

Prior to 70 AD, when a person died, their spirit immediately returned to God. Their bodies decayed and returned to dust. Their soul was trapped in Hades. When Christ returned in 70 AD, He freed those souls, they received their new bodies and returned to Heaven with Him.

Since 70 AD, when a believer dies, their spirit, soul and new body immediately go to heaven while their flesh body still decays and returns to dust. Flesh will never enter heaven. Corruption cannot put on incorruption.

There was no resurrection in 70 ad.

Daniel and Christ says there was.

True,....... so, the moment a person becomes a Christian, there soul is delivered up to the Father and we see His face?

But no man can see the face of God and live, Ex 33:20, how is it then, that we are still alive?

Please try to think outside the physical. Live in the spirit. We should all feel the presence of God even though our physical eyes cannot see Him yet. Some did see the Father when they saw Christ (John 14:9) and lived, LOL.

Please read Rom 8:24, 1 Cor 2:9, 2 Cor 4:18, and Heb 11:1, 13. This is the essence of our faith.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The completed kingdom is not delivered up to the Father until we are all judged, and death is destroyed, Rev 20.

You remain stuck in the physical. Physical death isn't destroyed, spiritual death was destroyed. God is the God of the living, not the dead. You are a living (spiritually) being and will not face the second death which was the death Christ destroyed.

Brother PlainWord,

You have really gone off the deep end on this "everything finished by 70 ad." thing.

My dear brother, let not your heart be troubled. Keep your eyes on the prize. Revelation was all about 70 AD. All the rules have been changed.

 

[MarcR]

Brother MarcR, Zec 12:10,

Isn't this a picture of Jesus' crucifixion, Jn 19:37? And the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost?

The Holy Spirit would be the spirit of grace and supplications.

The ones who mourned for Jesus would be the apostles and all the believers of that day.

See that in the next chapter Zec 13:1, it also speaks of the day of Pentecost and the coming of the fountain for sin at that time.

Also notice the symbolism used here.

--

I can't see any thing here that has not already been fulfilled.

What do you think?

What has not been fulfilled is:

1) God defending Israel against all nations that come against her
2) Israel as a nation accepting Jesus as Messiah
3) all nations required to observe the feast of tabernacles.
4) the Mount of Olives splitting and forming a rift valley

there is more but that will get you started.

 

[PlainWord]

What has not been fulfilled is:

1) God defending Israel against all nations that come against her
2) Israel as a nation accepting Jesus as Messiah
3) all nations required to observe the feast of tabernacles.
4) the Mount of Olives splitting and forming a rift valley

there is more but that will get you started.

Zec 14 was fulfilled during the Maccabees Revolt in the 2nd century BC.

 

[abcdef]

AB,



Where you there?

Well, old Jo was there, and you use him as evidence all the time, but apparently he left out that all the people in Jerusalem were resurrected after 3 1/2 days.

There weren't a lot of apostate Jews (their enemies) left to talk about it.

Rev 11:1-13, The enemies are, clearly, not apostate Jews. They are the Roman beast and the enemies from across he Euphrates.

So the enemies that killed them would be the beast, with the power of the armies across the Euphrates.

So it would have to be one group or both that witness the resurrection.

----

And the 2 witnesses (2 Wit's), are not 2 people, they are Israel which holds to the Law and the Prophets.

----

One of the most important reasons why the 7th trumpet is not the 70 ad destruction, is that the 70 ad dest was already shown at the 6th/7th seals.

The story of the scroll runs from Rev chs 4-11. It is time sequential.

The seals show the time from the rejection of the gospel by Israel, until the dest of Jerusalem 70 ad.

The trumpets continue the story, from 70 ad. until Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, Jerusalem falls, the rapt/resur happens, and then the end of the planet.

---

You are right though, this is the fall of Jerusalem, but not the fall of 70 ad. This is the one that we are facing today.

You have seen it before, the powers of Iran and the middle east. Beginning to march on present Israel. There was a time when this thought was foremost in your mind. You believed that the present situation in the middle east was in scripture. I agreed.

But now you have forgotten those things and fallen for a teaching that leaves out all prophecies after 70 ad. Bro, it just ain't so.

Please consider this, Amos 3:7, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing,but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

These things today, are being revealed to us.

Correct. It happened to all those who died before the parousia of Christ at the parousia of Christ. Now it happens instantly when we die. Christ had the keys to Death (spiritual) and Hades (the place souls used to go, and He set the captives free. They are no longer in Hades.

It happened in 33 ad when Jesus descended and the ascended.

Lazarus and the rich man were already judged when they died.

There is a time to rewarded for our deeds, before the throne.

The death Christ destroyed was spiritual death, not physical death.

When this planet is over, and we are all in heaven, then there will be no more physical death, and no more spiritual death ever, ever, ever.

That is when there will be no more death or separation from God.

Until that time there is death and separation from God and each other.

You think so much in the physical world and ignore the spiritual. We are in this physical world for but a brief second compared to eternity. All the action, and really important stuff, for us is in the spiritual realm.

Have I ignored the spiritual? Ha Ha.

Which He did in 70 AD.

The 7th trumpet was not 70 ad.

Changed how? The dead are raised incorruptible, right?

We are changed, it doesn't explain the tech aspects.

This means not one molecule of their old bodies becomes part of their new bodies because corruption (physical bodies) DOES NOT inherit in-corruption (1 Cor 15:50).

It doesn't say that. What about Jesus? His body was molecular, how did his physical body turn into spirit?

From dust (we) came to dust (we) return.

Until the resurrection?

So, what is really happening in 1 Cor 15:51? Answer: Redemption, Salvation

You don't inherit the kingdom until this life is over.

Yes it did. "Heaven and earth" was 70 AD Israel. John is copying Isaiah's metaphor for Israel (Isa 1:2). Put yourself in their time mentally. They were the chosen of God for 2,000 years until salvation was opened up to the Gentiles.

But the hvn and easth passing in Rev 20 is not the one of 70 ad.

Do you believe the literal Heaven where God dwells fled away from His face? Why on earth (no pun intended) would it do that?

Planet earth and the universe fly away, not the Law in Rev 20.

The Dead were judged in 70 AD.

Is there another resurrection of the dead after 70 ad?

Rev 11:18 tells us that the judgment happens along with the wrath

When the judge decides, that is the judgment.

When you serve the time, that is the wrath.

and we know the wrath was poured out in 70 AD. 70 AD marked the end of that age, the Mosaic Age at which time everything changed.

True, but the wrath did not end in 70 ad., it continued for 1900 yrs.

Now we are judged when we die (Heb 9:27).

In some ways.

Our age, the Messianic Age operates under completely different rules.

Before the Law, souls were saved by love, faith, and grace.

During the time of the Law, souls were saved by love, faith, and grace.

When the new covenant came, souls were saved by love faith and grace.

Has it changed that much?

Sure.

??

Death (2nd death) is already destroyed for believers.

For believers yes, but there is still spiritual death in existence.

This is the REALLY important death. It is this Death that Christ came to defeat.

Body, Soul, Spirit

Prior to 70 AD, when a person died, their spirit immediately returned to God.

The rich man and Lazarus didn't, it seems.

Their bodies decayed and returned to dust.

Their soul was trapped in Hades.

When Christ returned in 70 AD, He freed those souls, they received their new bodies and returned to Heaven with Him.

33 ad in Jesus resurrected.

Since 70 AD, when a believer dies, their spirit, soul and new body immediately go to heaven while their flesh body still decays and returns to dust.

Flesh will never enter heaven. Corruption cannot put on incorruption.

Daniel and Christ says there was.

You want to apply them to 70 ad, but they don't fit.

Please try to think outside the physical. Live in the spirit. We should all feel the presence of God even though our physical eyes cannot see Him yet.

Do we see His face right now? No, so it must be future after we die.

Some did see the Father when they saw Christ (John 14:9) and lived, LOL.

Please read Rom 8:24, 1 Cor 2:9, 2 Cor 4:18, and Heb 11:1, 13. This is the essence of our faith.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

You remain stuck in the physical. Physical death isn't destroyed, spiritual death was destroyed.

God is the God of the living, not the dead.

Abraham was dead when Jesus said that he was living, those in Hades with Abraham would be considered alive according to Jesus.

You are a living (spiritually) being and will not face the second death which was the death Christ destroyed.

My dear brother, let not your heart be troubled. Keep your eyes on the prize. Revelation was all about 70 AD.

Some parts are about 70 ad, but not all of the Rev.

All the rules have been changed.

When does the beast being thrown into the lake of fire happen in Rev 19:20? When, what year, show me how the Roman beast Empire is thrown into the lake of fire in 70 ad?