Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”
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29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
look verse 29-30
Sun will be darkened and ..........and........and........and son of man appear .....and
I go to the city to by soap, and banana and tomato and toilet paper
and.......
all these on the list is include
pay attention the word and
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
look verse 29-30
Sun will be darkened and ..........and........and........and son of man appear .....and
I go to the city to by soap, and banana and tomato and toilet paper
and.......
all these on the list is include
pay attention the word and
This is interesting. Why do you think that Israel's time of trouble would start at the 7th seal?
I think that most would say that it started at the first seal, or at the door 4:1-2.
Why the 7th seal?
I think that the seals are the time after Israel rejected the gospel kingdom in 37 ad (approx). And the the 6/7th seals is the dest of Jeru in 70 ad, followed by the trumpets.
It never really says that the 7 times are 7 years. I mean that there is no verse that says that, "the 7 times are 7 years."
The 42 months and 1260 days mentioned in the Rev are symbolic numbers, in symbolic passages.
The 2 witnesses are not 2 people, and the woman is not one literal woman, both symbolize Israel.
The 7 times are an indeterminate number to men, a time set by God, until revealed. Daniel 4:25, 32, 34.
At the 7th trumpet? yes/no?
For those who are Christians, the mill is from the day of Pentecost until now, the time of the kingdom on earth. After Jesus comes for the kingdom, there will be no more planet except fire.
For Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble was from the rejection of the kingdom until they were restored to Jerusalem.
Rome is the beast, the iron legs.
The 7 trumpets are against Israel after the flesh for not accepting the kingdom. They show the relationship between God and Israel after the flesh, the natural branches that were cut off.
I think that most would say that it started at the first seal, or at the door 4:1-2.
Why the 7th seal?
I think that the seals are the time after Israel rejected the gospel kingdom in 37 ad (approx). And the the 6/7th seals is the dest of Jeru in 70 ad, followed by the trumpets.
It never really says that the 7 times are 7 years. I mean that there is no verse that says that, "the 7 times are 7 years."
The 42 months and 1260 days mentioned in the Rev are symbolic numbers, in symbolic passages.
The 2 witnesses are not 2 people, and the woman is not one literal woman, both symbolize Israel.
The 7 times are an indeterminate number to men, a time set by God, until revealed. Daniel 4:25, 32, 34.
At the 7th trumpet? yes/no?
For those who are Christians, the mill is from the day of Pentecost until now, the time of the kingdom on earth. After Jesus comes for the kingdom, there will be no more planet except fire.
For Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble was from the rejection of the kingdom until they were restored to Jerusalem.
Rome is the beast, the iron legs.
The 7 trumpets are against Israel after the flesh for not accepting the kingdom. They show the relationship between God and Israel after the flesh, the natural branches that were cut off.
i just dont understand this. why does jesus return in revelation 19, then binds satan and reigns with saints for 1000 years, then comes again according to ur view?
my view is simple and biblical.
jesus returns in revelation 19, sets up the millennial kingdom in rev 20 and binds satan, then at the end satan is released to deceive the nations and they surround the camp of the saints and holy city, Jesus destroys them, great white throne judgment and in rev 21 new heaven and new earth and eternity.
so simple and biblical everyone can understand my view.
how can u explain ur view to anyone with Jesus returning in rev 19 and at the end of rev 20? and good luck convincing anyone who reads newspapers or has a working tv set or internet that the devil is bound right now. what a joke. the devil is deceiving the nations!
my view is simple and biblical.
jesus returns in revelation 19, sets up the millennial kingdom in rev 20 and binds satan, then at the end satan is released to deceive the nations and they surround the camp of the saints and holy city, Jesus destroys them, great white throne judgment and in rev 21 new heaven and new earth and eternity.
so simple and biblical everyone can understand my view.
how can u explain ur view to anyone with Jesus returning in rev 19 and at the end of rev 20? and good luck convincing anyone who reads newspapers or has a working tv set or internet that the devil is bound right now. what a joke. the devil is deceiving the nations!
Hi Snoozy,
Rev 19 does not show Jesus returning to planet earth.
It shows the fight and victory over the beast of the Roman Empire 476 ad.
---
See how Jesus has a sword coming out of His mouth? That is the gospel sword, that is His/our weapon against evil.
So that is how Jesus defeated the Roman Empire.
The souls that we see thrown into the fire are people of the beast. The Roman Empire
But this is not the last judgment, these are judged already, because they rejected Jesus and the gospel.
The battle that takes place is between the people of the beast and the gospel.
It says that heaven is opened, but it doesn't say that Jesus comes back to planet earth, that is an assumption.
See how there is a remnant? The Roman Empire was defeated, but the image of the Empire remains in the form of the RCC.
Jesus does not return in ch 19.
========
He does at the 2nd resurrection shown in ch 20.
This is one of the problems with taking the Rev as one complete time line.
Rev 19 does not show Jesus returning to planet earth.
It shows the fight and victory over the beast of the Roman Empire 476 ad.
---
See how Jesus has a sword coming out of His mouth? That is the gospel sword, that is His/our weapon against evil.
So that is how Jesus defeated the Roman Empire.
The souls that we see thrown into the fire are people of the beast. The Roman Empire
But this is not the last judgment, these are judged already, because they rejected Jesus and the gospel.
The battle that takes place is between the people of the beast and the gospel.
It says that heaven is opened, but it doesn't say that Jesus comes back to planet earth, that is an assumption.
See how there is a remnant? The Roman Empire was defeated, but the image of the Empire remains in the form of the RCC.
Jesus does not return in ch 19.
========
He does at the 2nd resurrection shown in ch 20.
This is one of the problems with taking the Rev as one complete time line.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
am i supposed to believe that this is the gospel spreading and the destruction of rome?
am i supposed to believe that preaching the gospel is ruling with a rod of iron?
OK, the beast is Rome.
The beast and the false prophet are Rome and Caesar.
The statue in Dan 2, shows that the kingdom causes the iron to divide, and then divide again into the toes.
In history we can see how the gospel influenced the Empire to the point where the Empire became a "Christian Roman Empire".
This is what ch 19 is showing.
The remnant is the RCC.
=========
There is no verse that says that this (ch 19) is the battle of Armageddon.
Can't you explain your statement?
The beast and the false prophet are Rome and Caesar.
The statue in Dan 2, shows that the kingdom causes the iron to divide, and then divide again into the toes.
In history we can see how the gospel influenced the Empire to the point where the Empire became a "Christian Roman Empire".
This is what ch 19 is showing.
The remnant is the RCC.
=========
There is no verse that says that this (ch 19) is the battle of Armageddon.
Can't you explain your statement?
You'd be better off not knowing that, since it could land on your back.
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come... For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:9-11)."
Could you please reconcile what you quoted above with the following located at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8? "Thiis a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considred worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. Vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, Vs7, (now pay attention) and to give "rest/relief" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, Vs8, dealing out retribution to hose who do not know God and to those wh odo not obey tghe gospel of our Lord Jesus."
So here is the question? When do we get "rest/relief?" In other words at vs7, "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." So according to you nehemiah do you personally believe that this is the pre-trib rapture?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I'm a little confused nehemiah? You said the following in your first post of this thread.
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come... For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.(1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:9-11)."
Could you please reconcile what you quoted above with the following located at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8? "Thiis a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considred worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. Vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, Vs7, (now pay attention) and to give "rest/relief" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, Vs8, dealing out retribution to hose who do not know God and to those wh odo not obey tghe gospel of our Lord Jesus."
So here is the question? When do we get "rest/relief?" In other words at vs7, "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." So according to you nehemiah do you personally believe that this is the pre-trib rapture?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come... For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.(1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:9-11)."
Could you please reconcile what you quoted above with the following located at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8? "Thiis a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considred worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. Vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, Vs7, (now pay attention) and to give "rest/relief" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, Vs8, dealing out retribution to hose who do not know God and to those wh odo not obey tghe gospel of our Lord Jesus."
So here is the question? When do we get "rest/relief?" In other words at vs7, "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire." So according to you nehemiah do you personally believe that this is the pre-trib rapture?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
As to your reference to 2 Thess 1:5-8 it is a word of comfort to the Thessalonian Christians who were being severely persecuted for their faith. It is also a reference to the second coming of Christ -- WITH His saints and angels -- to wreak vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel. It corresponds to Jude 1:14,15 and Rev 1:7:
...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance... (vv 7,8)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all...
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
There will be universal mourning at the second coming because severe judgment will be inescapable. And "clouds" is a metaphor for the hosts of saints and angels accompanying Christ as He descends for the battle of Armageddon (still future).
As to your question about "rest", what Paul is really saying is do not be troubled or agitated by those who are persecuting you, since their judgment is assured.
I was just kidding with Preterist abcdef who believes that the battle of Armageddon has already taken place.
As to your reference to 2 Thess 1:5-8 it is a word of comfort to the Thessalonian Christians who were being severely persecuted for their faith. It is also a reference to the second coming of Christ -- WITH His saints and angels -- to wreak vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel. It corresponds to Jude 1:14,15 and Rev 1:7:
...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance... (vv 7,8)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all...
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
There will be universal mourning at the second coming because severe judgment will be inescapable. And "clouds" is a metaphor for the hosts of saints and angels accompanying Christ as He descends for the battle of Armageddon (still future).
As to your question about "rest", what Paul is really saying is do not be troubled or agitated by those who are persecuting you, since their judgment is assured.
Yes, their judgment is assured and our rest is assured as well "WHEN" is that assured according to vs 7 nehemiah? It's when the Lord Jesus returns. So I'm asking you is His return considered to the rapture according to you? And look at chapter 2 starting at vs1 where the Apostle Paul further elaborates on this issue.
Now we request you, brethren WITH REGARD TO THE COMING OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, and our gathering together to Him. Please read vs2 and here is what vs3 states, "Let no one in any way decerive you, for (or because) it will not come UNLESS the apostasy comes first, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, THE SON OF DESTRUCTION."
Obviously this is the person of the anti-christ which means that anti-christ will be here before the rapture of the church. Secondly, look at 1 John 18, "Children it is the last hour, and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrist have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." In other words, the Apostle John is backing up the Apostle Paul.
So John is saying it is the last hour and antichrist is coming which means if we are raptured before antichrist comes then why is John telling us to look out for the antichirst? Do you see the dilema your in here nehemiah?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
As to your reference to 2 Thess 1:5-8 it is a word of comfort to the Thessalonian Christians who were being severely persecuted for their faith. It is also a reference to the second coming of Christ -- WITH His saints and angels -- to wreak vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel. It corresponds to Jude 1:14,15 and Rev 1:7:
...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance... (vv 7,8)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all...
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
There will be universal mourning at the second coming because severe judgment will be inescapable. And "clouds" is a metaphor for the hosts of saints and angels accompanying Christ as He descends for the battle of Armageddon (still future).
As to your question about "rest", what Paul is really saying is do not be troubled or agitated by those who are persecuting you, since their judgment is assured.
Yes, their judgment is assured and our rest is assured as well "WHEN" is that assured according to vs 7 nehemiah? It's when the Lord Jesus returns. So I'm asking you is His return considered to the rapture according to you? And look at chapter 2 starting at vs1 where the Apostle Paul further elaborates on this issue.
Now we request you, brethren WITH REGARD TO THE COMING OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, and our gathering together to Him. Please read vs2 and here is what vs3 states, "Let no one in any way decerive you, for (or because) it will not come UNLESS the apostasy comes first, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, THE SON OF DESTRUCTION."
Obviously this is the person of the anti-christ which means that anti-christ will be here before the rapture of the church. Secondly, look at 1 John 18, "Children it is the last hour, and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrist have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." In other words, the Apostle John is backing up the Apostle Paul.
So John is saying it is the last hour and antichrist is coming which means if we are raptured before antichrist comes then why is John telling us to look out for the antichirst? Do you see the dilema your in here nehemiah?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto