Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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K
You fail to see the distinction of the two groups here at judgment. Which is the same as always been. The ones that are saved and the ones that are condemned to hell fire. This chapter makes it clear not all standing here face that hell fire.
Small and great crowd, judged by works but written in the book of life so they were judged on what reward to give them.
Then the crowd the sea gave up, and death and hades gave up. Then they were judged by their works and cast into the lake of fire and determining how bad their works was determined their suffering in the lake of fire. Do to popular demand not everybody burns for eternity in the lake of fire.
I will have to look up the scripture again, but it says some will be totally burned up and nothing will be left.
Small and great crowd, judged by works but written in the book of life so they were judged on what reward to give them.
Then the crowd the sea gave up, and death and hades gave up. Then they were judged by their works and cast into the lake of fire and determining how bad their works was determined their suffering in the lake of fire. Do to popular demand not everybody burns for eternity in the lake of fire.
I will have to look up the scripture again, but it says some will be totally burned up and nothing will be left.
E
Wow.
I have proven that death are delieverd
I have proven that death and hades are delieverd and judged
I have proven that death and hades are cast into the lake of fire.
If you can not see this. There is no more helping you.
There is no rapture here
There is no one risen by christ here
There are only those DELIEVERED TO CHRIST.
Maybe if yuo look up the difference between being risen, Raised, Ressurected BY CHRIST. and delivered TO CHRIST. you will finally be able to see the difference.
There are NO REWARDS given at this judgement, You are adding to the word of God. The is the great white throne. NOT the BEMA Judgment.
The BEMA Judgment (greek) is long before this. No one who is dead to Christ will be present at this judgment.
The judging on works, is because that is ALL the unbelievers have to give God.
The point is. No work will save them.
Yes please do. Because I have never seen this. This would be what anyone in hell would wish. So I do not see how this would benefit the less evil.
I have proven that death are delieverd
I have proven that death and hades are delieverd and judged
I have proven that death and hades are cast into the lake of fire.
If you can not see this. There is no more helping you.
There is no rapture here
There is no one risen by christ here
There are only those DELIEVERED TO CHRIST.
Maybe if yuo look up the difference between being risen, Raised, Ressurected BY CHRIST. and delivered TO CHRIST. you will finally be able to see the difference.
There are NO REWARDS given at this judgement, You are adding to the word of God. The is the great white throne. NOT the BEMA Judgment.
The BEMA Judgment (greek) is long before this. No one who is dead to Christ will be present at this judgment.
The judging on works, is because that is ALL the unbelievers have to give God.
The point is. No work will save them.
Yes please do. Because I have never seen this. This would be what anyone in hell would wish. So I do not see how this would benefit the less evil.
K
I will, but I have to go for now. But believers do get different rewords by the works they produce, and non-believers/or those cast into the lake of fire do not all get burned up for eternity. Scriptures on both of these do exist, and I will look them up while I am away. Hopefully some one will see this and post it first but I will post to later.
God bless all
Thought for the day: Compare the beast in Daniel to the beast in Revelations....The different parts represent different nations. Notice the one in Daniel has eagles wings, the one in Revelations is missing those wings.....WHY ?
God bless all
Thought for the day: Compare the beast in Daniel to the beast in Revelations....The different parts represent different nations. Notice the one in Daniel has eagles wings, the one in Revelations is missing those wings.....WHY ?
K
The last verse says
"It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
Newbirth, I have seen what you have been posting to eternallygrateful, and I agree that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is a daily thing and if we deny the Lord, which we still can, He will deny us. I do not refute this. We can lose our salvation, but I believe you are going to far with saying that it is somehow by our efforts. As I've shown the very word of God contradicts this. All scripture works together and does not contradict but clarifies.
In Romans it goes on to says that God has mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy. That He raised Pharaoh up for the very purpose that He (God) would be glorified. The word says these things. He predestined because of His foreknowledge.
Now we are not God, so we do not know what He knows (if we will continue to the end) but we do know that it is because of His Grace and mercy that we are even able to be saved. He did that, not us. Because of His allowance we are able to choose but that is still by His power and not our own. Once we've chosen, if a life in Christ, then the Holy Spirit begins working in and through us. We can do nothing and are nothing. We must be careful that what we say is in line with the word. Slow to speak and quick to listen. Truly willing to see in whatever way we may be straying from what is the One Truth and One Way.
I believe it is a dangerous thing to think that in some way we can do anything without Christ, because we cannot. Yes, God will commend and has commended people for doing certain things, but it is only by the Holy Spirit that they were made able, not by anything in and of themselves. We are wicked and evil. Our natural man cannot be made good, he must die so that we will be empty and fit for Gods purposes. Holy and Separate so that He may dwell in us. That He may be found in us and us in Him. This is what the word of God says. Stressing our part in any way does become a false righteousness that uplifts ourselves in thinking we are or have achieved something when we have not. Giving credit to what is evil rather than what is right and good. ALL Scripture must work together.
I say these same things to myself as I know they apply to everyone.
Let us not get in quarrels with one another about words but truly get minds fixed on what matters. Upholding what He says and not what we say and not tolerating anyone preaching another gospel other than what He has given us. Let God be true and every man a liar. We are all liars and only He is Truth. I pray this finds you well in the Lord.
With Christ's Love and not my own,
Kate
"It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
Newbirth, I have seen what you have been posting to eternallygrateful, and I agree that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is a daily thing and if we deny the Lord, which we still can, He will deny us. I do not refute this. We can lose our salvation, but I believe you are going to far with saying that it is somehow by our efforts. As I've shown the very word of God contradicts this. All scripture works together and does not contradict but clarifies.
In Romans it goes on to says that God has mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy. That He raised Pharaoh up for the very purpose that He (God) would be glorified. The word says these things. He predestined because of His foreknowledge.
Now we are not God, so we do not know what He knows (if we will continue to the end) but we do know that it is because of His Grace and mercy that we are even able to be saved. He did that, not us. Because of His allowance we are able to choose but that is still by His power and not our own. Once we've chosen, if a life in Christ, then the Holy Spirit begins working in and through us. We can do nothing and are nothing. We must be careful that what we say is in line with the word. Slow to speak and quick to listen. Truly willing to see in whatever way we may be straying from what is the One Truth and One Way.
I believe it is a dangerous thing to think that in some way we can do anything without Christ, because we cannot. Yes, God will commend and has commended people for doing certain things, but it is only by the Holy Spirit that they were made able, not by anything in and of themselves. We are wicked and evil. Our natural man cannot be made good, he must die so that we will be empty and fit for Gods purposes. Holy and Separate so that He may dwell in us. That He may be found in us and us in Him. This is what the word of God says. Stressing our part in any way does become a false righteousness that uplifts ourselves in thinking we are or have achieved something when we have not. Giving credit to what is evil rather than what is right and good. ALL Scripture must work together.
I say these same things to myself as I know they apply to everyone.
Let us not get in quarrels with one another about words but truly get minds fixed on what matters. Upholding what He says and not what we say and not tolerating anyone preaching another gospel other than what He has given us. Let God be true and every man a liar. We are all liars and only He is Truth. I pray this finds you well in the Lord.
With Christ's Love and not my own,
Kate
--But it is logical and scripture does not promote what is illogical. One cannot logically go back to New York if he never left New York. Like wise one cannot go back to perdition if he never left perdition.
--John does not say it is impossible for the Christian to fall back into sin.
--no one here that I have seen is arguing salvation can be earned, so that continues to be a straw man argument
E
1 John 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
This is faith without works. He is a liar. He has never known God
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.[SUP] 26 [/SUP]These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[SUP][e][/SUP] abide in Him.
This is a warning to not listen to people like you. Who try to decieve us and think we may not abide in Christ, and we need taught. and that we do not have eternal life, but conditional life.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
this tells you whoever lives in sin has never seen God nor known him (never was saved period)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
this is quite clear. again warning us against people like you. Whoever sins is of the devil (not God, Whoever is born of God CANT live in sin, because he has been born of God.
take heed sea bass, the warning is against you
this is a strawman, and proves you are either decieved by your own thinking, or blind as to what you are saying,
the fact is, if salvation can be lost. then it MUST BE EARNED. The two go hand in hand.
This is faith without works. He is a liar. He has never known God
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.[SUP] 26 [/SUP]These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[SUP][e][/SUP] abide in Him.
This is a warning to not listen to people like you. Who try to decieve us and think we may not abide in Christ, and we need taught. and that we do not have eternal life, but conditional life.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
this tells you whoever lives in sin has never seen God nor known him (never was saved period)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
this is quite clear. again warning us against people like you. Whoever sins is of the devil (not God, Whoever is born of God CANT live in sin, because he has been born of God.
take heed sea bass, the warning is against you
this is a strawman, and proves you are either decieved by your own thinking, or blind as to what you are saying,
the fact is, if salvation can be lost. then it MUST BE EARNED. The two go hand in hand.
F
Pastors say that. There is not scripture in the bible that teaches the Judgment seat of Christ & the White throne judgment are two different things. Both passages speak of being lost after judgment. If any man does harm to the body of Christ, him will God destroy - speaking of the judgment seat. This passage is talking about how leaders in the church will be judged for their work & the bible already qualifies what a leader is, for one thing, they must be blameless, holy individuals. This is twisting scripture to the max.
In the passage about the White throne judgment it tells us that those whose names are NOT found in the Lambs Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire. It tells us this book will be opened, so obviously, people will be there who's names are written in this book!
In the passage about the White throne judgment it tells us that those whose names are NOT found in the Lambs Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire. It tells us this book will be opened, so obviously, people will be there who's names are written in this book!
1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Keeping commandments is obedient works, and one cannot know God WITHOUT doing this obedient work in keeping commands. Same with 1 Jn 2:5.
You left out quoting 1 Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Each Christian has the responsibility that God's word "remain" in Him for IF (conditional word) remains in the Christian then the Christian will continue in Christ. The implication is if the word John preached does not remain in them, they do not continue in Christ.
1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
John here is not saying it is impossible for a Christian to sin for John then would contradict himself in 1 Jn 1:7-10.
In 1 Jn 3:9 the verbs "doth not" and "cannot sin" are present tense denoting that those who become Christian cannot continue to live in sin, they must give up their sinful lifestyle to be a Christian. "Cannot" does not mean "impossible". The law may say you cannot drive over 55 mph but that does not mean it is impossible for you to drive over 55 mph.
People can lose things that have been freely given to them.
F
Faith without works is dead. That really should end all arguments. Also those who do not do righteousness or let me just paste:
1 John 3:10 GOD’S WORD Translation [SUP]
10 [/SUP]This is the way God’s children are distinguished from the devil’s children. Everyone who doesn’t do what is right or love other believers isn’t God’s child.
Yet, as clear as these scripture are we have people arguing that you do NOT have to do anything but believe. Which simply means that you do not have to obey God to be rewarded with eternal life. The bible uses the word reward often which is to earn (SeaBass).
The Lord Jesus, Himself, has preached more than once that the church will stand before Him and be judged by their works. He never ever said what Martin Luther taught. Nobody taught what Luther taught - he is the first to bring this false gospel. The sheep and the goats are both standing before the Judge. The angels gather the good and bad from the nets. The wheat and the chaff or both winnowed the same time and separated! The foolish and the wise virgins one group gets in prepared the others do not. Judgment will begin with the house of God. All concern the church being judged!
1 John 3:10 GOD’S WORD Translation [SUP]
10 [/SUP]This is the way God’s children are distinguished from the devil’s children. Everyone who doesn’t do what is right or love other believers isn’t God’s child.
Yet, as clear as these scripture are we have people arguing that you do NOT have to do anything but believe. Which simply means that you do not have to obey God to be rewarded with eternal life. The bible uses the word reward often which is to earn (SeaBass).
The Lord Jesus, Himself, has preached more than once that the church will stand before Him and be judged by their works. He never ever said what Martin Luther taught. Nobody taught what Luther taught - he is the first to bring this false gospel. The sheep and the goats are both standing before the Judge. The angels gather the good and bad from the nets. The wheat and the chaff or both winnowed the same time and separated! The foolish and the wise virgins one group gets in prepared the others do not. Judgment will begin with the house of God. All concern the church being judged!
S
Funny, so Jesus at the last super said [SUP]26 [/SUP]While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; [SUP]28 [/SUP]for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
(11) I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (Joh 5:24, NIV)
(11) I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (Joh 5:24, NIV)
God has not given us a spirit of fear.....are you afraid to say you stand in the power of God? How can we be children of God and not share the power. We live in the spirit but we have a natural body ...the one you feed more will over power the one you feed less.
when you say these things please don't include me...as a matter of fact don't ever confess that again...Confess Christ.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. When we sit around and allow false doctrine to grow , and do nothing we are just as guilty as those who preach it.
Why Do Sinners Insist on Salvation by Works?
Why is it that precisely those who have no good works, for they are sinners, insist so loudly that salvation is by works, not faith, or they would sin?
Those who insist on salvation by works are not trusting Christ as Savior. Thus all the negatives of Rom 1-3 applies to them where their depravity is described: "There is none who does good, no not one."
But then if you tell them to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as only & sufficient Savior, they are likely to object: That can't be right, for if salvation were a free gift just for believing, why one would go and sin up a storm.
So there we have it. Those who are vile sinners won't trust Christ as Savior because that would lead to sin.
IMHO:
It would appear that such persons in all their sinfulness, yet have the sin of religious pride; they want validation of their works, not salvation from their sins. And the very mentality of thinking they would sin if they were saved just by faith and had security in that salvation, is another demo of their wickedness -- they postulate paying back the Lord's love & supreme sacrifice with sin, as if the love of Christ did not constrain them -- and indeed Christ's love does not constrain them. They want self-righteousness, instead of God be merciful to me a sinner.
Why is it that precisely those who have no good works, for they are sinners, insist so loudly that salvation is by works, not faith, or they would sin?
Those who insist on salvation by works are not trusting Christ as Savior. Thus all the negatives of Rom 1-3 applies to them where their depravity is described: "There is none who does good, no not one."
But then if you tell them to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as only & sufficient Savior, they are likely to object: That can't be right, for if salvation were a free gift just for believing, why one would go and sin up a storm.
So there we have it. Those who are vile sinners won't trust Christ as Savior because that would lead to sin.
IMHO:
It would appear that such persons in all their sinfulness, yet have the sin of religious pride; they want validation of their works, not salvation from their sins. And the very mentality of thinking they would sin if they were saved just by faith and had security in that salvation, is another demo of their wickedness -- they postulate paying back the Lord's love & supreme sacrifice with sin, as if the love of Christ did not constrain them -- and indeed Christ's love does not constrain them. They want self-righteousness, instead of God be merciful to me a sinner.