Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[dcontroversal]

Pastors say that. There is not scripture in the bible that teaches the Judgment seat of Christ & the White throne judgment are two different things. Both passages speak of being lost after judgment. If any man does harm to the body of Christ, him will God destroy - speaking of the judgment seat. This passage is talking about how leaders in the church will be judged for their work & the bible already qualifies what a leader is, for one thing, they must be blameless, holy individuals. This is twisting scripture to the max.
In the passage about the White throne judgment it tells us that those whose names are NOT found in the Lambs Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire. It tells us this book will be opened, so obviously, people will be there who's names are written in this book!

Well sorry, but your pastor is wrong....blessed and holy is HE THAT HATH PART IN THE 1ST resurrection upon whom the 2nd death (resurrection to eternal fire) hath no power...

One is the judgment seat of Christ
the other is the Great White Throne Judgment of the Lost at the end of the millennial reign!

 

[dcontroversal]

The thief lived under the OT law and promised paradise under that OT law and is therefore is not an example of NT salvation.

Except for the fact that the law and the prophets were until John who has been dead some time and the (church) having been spoken of in the present tense no less than three times before this recorded event.....but coming from you I would expect you to reject truth so as to keep teaching something that is false!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Pastors say that. There is not scripture in the bible that teaches the Judgment seat of Christ & the White throne judgment are two different things. Both passages speak of being lost after judgment. If any man does harm to the body of Christ, him will God destroy - speaking of the judgment seat. This passage is talking about how leaders in the church will be judged for their work & the bible already qualifies what a leader is, for one thing, they must be blameless, holy individuals. This is twisting scripture to the max.
In the passage about the White throne judgment it tells us that those whose names are NOT found in the Lambs Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire. It tells us this book will be opened, so obviously, people will be there who's names are written in this book!

This is error, Your leaders should look in the greek.

The "bema seat" judgement is used of children of God recieving reward. Gold silver precious stone, wood hey and straw. it even states that some will recieve NO REWARD period. but he himself will STILL BE SAVED, even though as through fire.

The bema judgment in the greek was the judges who handed out rewards in the olympics. the rewards handed out was for work performed.

The great white throne judgment (greek krino) is a legal judgement where one stands in front of a judge to determine guilt. Since the believer has already been redeemed by the blood, He will not be at this judgment, because his sin was judged on the cross.

 

[Kate913]

What verse says God "compels" a Christian to do good works? For a Christian, he must choose of his own will to do good works if he desires to remain in a saved position, but God does not force him to do or not do good works.

"For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by theHoly Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21

"16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want.18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:16-18

"25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." Galatians 5:25

"8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Galatians 6:8-9

"It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things." 1 Peter 1:12

"But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” John 10:38

It is only by the Spirit of Christ living in us that we can know and do the works of the Father, by His power given to us...nothing of ourselves.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Romans 3:20

When we do works without the Spirit then it is nothing to God, as the verse says above. It is only when we are walking in and by the Spirit of Christ and led by Him that we are serving God.

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh,discovered in this matter?2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”" Romans 4:1-3

To believe is to obey and walk in His Truth. Keeping in step with the Holy Spirit that leads us.


"12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." Philippians 2:12-14

He does not force us no, but if we are choosing to live for Him, a choice that we can only make because of God's grace, then his spirit will compel us to do things. Compel does not mean force, it means urge. The Spirit of Christ is the only reason we can even see and know what is of the Lord, and we can still shrink back and become unwilling, giving into our sinful nature. This is what the word of God says. Search and see if it is not so.

 

[Kate913]

God has not given us a spirit of fear.....are you afraid to say you stand in the power of God? How can we be children of God and not share the power. We live in the spirit but we have a natural body ...the one you feed more will over power the one you feed less. when you say these things please don't include me...as a matter of fact don't ever confess that again...Confess Christ.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. When we sit around and allow false doctrine to grow , and do nothing we are just as guilty as those who preach it.

No one is saying that we shouldn't profess God. That is all we should be about, but do you forget that it is His power at work and not your own. I agree that we must feed one or the other and that is by what we choose to live by daily. A choice given us by God's grace.
I will continue to confess that I in myself am wicked and evil and so will anyone with the Holy Spirit who is not uplifting themselves but only the One who is Good. You uplift yourself in thinking you are somehow saved by your own efforts. You have admitted it when the very word of God says it is not by human effort. Yes faith without work is dead. that is because it is really no faith at all. True Faith produces fruit in God by the Holy Spirit working in us. Anything of ourselves is trying to enter the gate another way. I will include you and every man that walks this earth because there is nothing good in us unless Christ Spirit dwells in us. And then it is He we is good not us. Paul said that He was the Chief of all sinners, we should all see ourselves this way rather than exalting ourselves as if we are or have attained something. the very word of God says that we have attained nothing as we ought and even as Paul walked with the Spirit He fell into sin and hated what was evil and clang to what is Good. I will speak to you no longer since you continue to boast in yourself rather then in the Lord. I pray that you see this is so and think on these things. For the whole Word is God breathed. No verse is more important than another. It is all Truth.
with the True Love that only can come from Him,
Kate

 

[newbirth]

No one is saying that we shouldn't profess God. That is all we should be about, but do you forget that it is His power at work and not your own. I agree that we must feed one or the other and that is by what we choose to live by daily. A choice given us by God's grace.

I will continue to confess that I in myself am wicked and evil

Do you belong in this group... [h=3]Romans 1:28-30[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,


[QUOTE

]

and so will anyone with the Holy Spirit who is not uplifting themselves but only the One who is Good. You uplift yourself in thinking you are somehow saved by your own efforts. You have admitted it when the very word of God says it is not by human effort. Yes faith without work is dead. that is because it is really no faith at all. True Faith produces fruit in God by the Holy Spirit working in us. Anything of ourselves is trying to enter the gate another way. I will include you and every man that walks this earth because there is nothing good in us

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

unless Christ Spirit dwells in us

.

are you telling me Christ does not dwell in me

And then it is He we is good not us. Paul said that He was the Chief of all sinners, we should all see ourselves this way rather than exalting ourselves as if we are or have attained something. the very word of God says that we have attained nothing as we ought and even as Paul walked with the Spirit He fell into sin and hated what was evil and clang to what is Good. I will speak to you no longer since you continue to boast in yourself rather then in the Lord. I pray that you see this is so and think on these things. For the whole Word is God breathed. No verse is more important than another. It is all Truth.
with the True Love that only can come from Him

[h=3]Philippians 2:4-6[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

,
Kate[/QUOTE]

my boast is in Christ because I am dead ..2 Cor 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We should speak some more...If you think I am wrong show me in scripture...you cannot be evil and be in Christ

 

[know1]

Yes faith without work is dead. that is because it is really no faith at all. True Faith produces fruit in God by the Holy Spirit working in us.

I can tell you don't live by faith, because you don't know what faith is, or how works.
Faith does not work without works, or corresponding action.
You can believe without works, but you cannot have faith without it.

 

[Kate913]

,
Kate

my boast is in Christ because I am dead ..2 Cor 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We should speak some more...If you think I am wrong show me in scripture...you cannot be evil and be in Christ

You speak as though your fight is over. Though even Paul did not say it is done until he new he would soon die. We have not yet received the crown.

"6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:6-8

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry." Colossians 3:5

We must choose to die to this daily but this is what we all are in our earthly nature and this is what we have to continue to die to. Our fight is not up until death.

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." 1 Timothy 1:15

Are you willing to call yourself the chief all sinners? Paul did.

"I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing." 2 Corinthians 12:11

"Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood" Genesis 8:21

This is what all men are in themselves without Christ. As I said before we must put this man to death daily. This is the fight and race which is not yet finished and will not be finished until our flesh is physically dead. Then the human nature in us will die completely as well. We are wicked, but we should not walk in that wickedness, but deny it so that Christ will live in and through us.

 

[SeaBass]

Funny, so Jesus at the last super said [SUP]26 [/SUP]While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; [SUP]28 [/SUP]for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

(11) I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (Joh 5:24, NIV)

The NT was not in force until some point AFTER Christ died, Heb 9:16,17

 

[SeaBass]

Real salvation does result in works though

Eph 2

So no works = no real salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Why Do Sinners Insist on Salvation by Works?

Those who insist on salvation by works are not trusting Christ as Savior. Thus all the negatives of Rom 1-3 applies to them where their depravity is described: "There is none who does good, no not one."

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Those that obey trust in Christ to save them. But since Christ only saves those that obey, it is that sense James said works justify and Paul said obedience unto righteousness. Those looking for salvation without a faithful obedience will never find it.

 

[SeaBass]

Except for the fact that the law and the prophets were until John who has been dead some time and the (church) having been spoken of in the present tense no less than three times before this recorded event.....but coming from you I would expect you to reject truth so as to keep teaching something that is false!

Again, the NT would not be in force until AFTER Christ's death, Heb 9:16,17

 

[SeaBass]

"For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by theHoly Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21

"16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want.18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:16-18

"25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." Galatians 5:25

"8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Galatians 6:8-9

"It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things." 1 Peter 1:12

"But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” John 10:38

It is only by the Spirit of Christ living in us that we can know and do the works of the Father, by His power given to us...nothing of ourselves.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Romans 3:20

When we do works without the Spirit then it is nothing to God, as the verse says above. It is only when we are walking in and by the Spirit of Christ and led by Him that we are serving God.

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh,discovered in this matter?2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”" Romans 4:1-3

To believe is to obey and walk in His Truth. Keeping in step with the Holy Spirit that leads us.


"12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." Philippians 2:12-14

He does not force us no, but if we are choosing to live for Him, a choice that we can only make because of God's grace, then his spirit will compel us to do things. Compel does not mean force, it means urge. The Spirit of Christ is the only reason we can even see and know what is of the Lord, and we can still shrink back and become unwilling, giving into our sinful nature. This is what the word of God says. Search and see if it is not so.

I do not see in any verses you cited that God compels the Christian to do works.

But the point of this thread is this: can you become a Christian and NEVER do any works yet still be saved?

You quote Gal 5:16,25 that requires the Christian to walk, a work

You quote Gal 6:8,9 that requires the Christian to sow and doing well, works.

So can one who becomes a Christian NEVER do any works, never walk, never sow, never do good works [Eph 2:10; 1 Jn 3:17; not keep Christ's works, [Rev 2:26] yet still be saved? NO!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So no works = no real salvation.

no. No faith = no real salvation. Works have nothing to do with it. All of our works have earned us condemnation,

if one had true faith. the works would be a by product of that faith.

Scripture is clear.

He who believes us not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only son of God.

No works involved.

Have true faith saved.

No faith.. not saved.

 

[SeaBass]

no. No faith = no real salvation. Works have nothing to do with it. All of our works have earned us condemnation,

if one had true faith. the works would be a by product of that faith.

Scripture is clear.

He who believes us not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only son of God.

No works involved.

Have true faith saved.

No faith.. not saved.

The church began at Acts 2, show one example where one was told "do no works" and thou shalt be saved?

Believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism for remission of sins are all works.

So prove to us the unbeliever, the impenitent, the denier of Christ, the one lost in his sins is saved. (And do not falsely claim God does these works for man when He does not)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The church began at Acts 2, show one example where one was told "do no works" and thou shalt be saved?

Believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism for remission of sins are all works.

So prove to us the unbeliever, the impenitent, the denier of Christ, the one lost in his sins is saved. (And do not falsely claim God does these works for man when He does not)

lol.. Your to busy puffing yourself up. You can;t see the work of God.

Maybe one day God will humble you and you will see your mistake.

Get over yourself dude. Your not giving God a very good reputation.

Salvation has been by faith not works since adam first sin. Works have NEVER SAVED ANYONE PERIOD (or have you not read hebrews. where the law never saved a soul.

 

[royalscot]

The church began at Acts 2, show one example where one was told "do no works" and thou shalt be saved?

Believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism for remission of sins are all works.

So prove to us the unbeliever, the impenitent, the denier of Christ, the one lost in his sins is saved. (And do not falsely claim God does these works for man when He does not)

how many, gentiles , were at Pentecost.(the answer here is none, because Cornelius, proves this ,peter found out, that the holy spirit was give to gentiles, if there was at a gentile at Pentecost, they would have already, knew that a gentile could get the holy spirit.)
look what happens to peter, went out side law, because jews could not speak to gentiles. at went to Cornelius is home, a gentile.
ie ware gentiles were grafted in to the body church etc. (act 10, Cornelius )
what law was he told to repent from.

act 15 ,meets to ask, what law should the gentiles follow.
your time frame is out. trying to mix jew and gentiles at Pentecost.

when its clear the gentiles, dose not need to follow the whole law or degrees of the law of moses. (act 15)

and since I am a gentile, why are you talking like a jewish person,to a gentile. that shows ,you cant even divide scripture correct. brother.

 

[newbirth]

no. No faith = no real salvation. Works have nothing to do with it. All of our works have earned us condemnation,

if one had true faith. the works would be a by product of that faith.

Scripture is clear.

He who believes us not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only son of God.

No works involved.

Have true faith saved.

No faith.. not saved.

Again you inject your own twist, true faith, but even that works against your doctrine. Faith without work is dead. Just as the body without the spirit is dead,which makes Faith with works living faith, thus true faith.
For all those who have a problem with work
2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
That is work....
2 Corinthians 6:1

6 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again you inject your own twist, true faith, but even that works against your doctrine. Faith without work is dead. Just as the body without the spirit is dead,which makes Faith with works living faith, thus true faith.
For all those who have a problem with work
2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
That is work....
2 Corinthians 6:1

6 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

No my friend your the one twisting.

A dead faith is no faith at all. Hoe can one be saved by grace through faith, not works if they HAVE NO FAITH

How can a man be justified freely by faith if they HAVE NO FAITH

How can a man be in a non condemned state based on their faith in Christ, if they have no faith (which means they are still condemned.)

Works is not the issue, James did not contradict paul. Faith is the issue. James is using works to PROVE to people who have mere belief, a dead orthodoxy gospel. A licentious attitude, that they can claim to have faith all they want, Their lack of true change, lack of true outpouring of Gods love, A lack of true understanding of what God has said (hearers not doers) that their faith is dead. and they better re-evaluate what they claim. Demons believe in one God. But the tremble at the thought of facing God knowing they will be judged. Because their is no hope for them, Mere believe will never save anyone, it takes true faith. if one HAD TRUE FAITH. they would show the change in attitude, in life and in love.

you do not even understand the type of "works" james is talking about.

 

[newbirth]

You speak as though your fight is over. Though even Paul did not say it is done until he new he would soon die. We have not yet received the crown.

"6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:6-8

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry." Colossians 3:5

We must choose to die to this daily but this is what we all are in our earthly nature and this is what we have to continue to die to. Our fight is not up until death.

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." 1 Timothy 1:15

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Are you willing to call yourself the chief all sinners? Paul did.

read the next verse..Paul is not telling us to be sinners



"I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing." 2 Corinthians 12:11

"Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood" Genesis 8:21

This is what all men are in themselves without Christ. As I said before we must put this man to death daily. This is the fight and race which is not yet finished and will not be finished until our flesh is physically dead. Then the human nature in us will die completely as well. We are wicked, but we should not walk in that wickedness, but deny it so that Christ will live in and through us.

You speak of man without Christ.Are we without Christ? Do we not put him on daily? Do we not abstain from evil, If we sin do we not go before God for forgiveness? Do we not deny our physical pleasures and seek for fruit of the spirit. Do we not walk after the spirit?Isn't this the will of God for us ? Have we by chance forgotten we have been purged from our old sins, to walk in newness of life? Did God not Give is power to become a son of God?