Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[posthuman]

speaking in human terms because of the limitations of natural selves.

order of events in getting a job:

1. find out abut an opening. (hear the Word)
2. put in application. (believe the word, putting your trust in the Lord)
3. become hired. (justified, reconciled and redeemed by the blood of Christ)
4. get trained. (sealed & regenerated by the Spirit)
5. show up for work. (do the things befitting the position God has placed you in)

even if you never show up for work, you still get paid for your training hours.
but as you continue to put in time at the office, your paycheck increases.

even so, the apostle doesn't talk about this as a job -- but as slavery. and even a slave who does no work at all, remains a slave to his master, though unprofitable.

now, will the Lord sell His servant to another master if He is displeased with him? or will our Good Shepherd patiently train us in the right way? that's the question to ask. not whether by showing up for work before you've ever been hired is going to earn you a job. insurance regulations prevent that sort of thing, brothers!

 

[oldthennew]

a good analogy, post.

we are SLAVES to Jesus Christ - bought with a price!

we definitely should desire to fall into the category of the -
(well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the Kingdom) -

for it is written:
I come quickly and My reward is with Me.'

 

[mailmandan]

The problem with Sea Bass' doctrine is that He can not accept a Free Gift on God's terms. He feels a need to do something to deserve it. Many others have the same difficulty. It is NOT the translation he uses!

It is his unwillingness to take God's gift on God's terms.

We are very unlikely to persuade him of his error; but we have a duty to point out his error to the discipled.

Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand, it's just hard for SeaBass to ACCEPT. It is tragic that human pride will not allow him to come to Christ. His hands are full of his works and he will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

 

[Jeff_56]

followers of jesus did what jesus said to do, and were content with food and clothes.
followers of jesus do what jesus says to do, and are content with food and clothes.

speaking in human terms because of the limitations of natural selves.
order of events in getting a job:

1. find out abut an opening. (hear the Word)
2. put in application. (believe the word, putting your trust in the Lord)
3. become hired. (justified, reconciled and redeemed by the blood of Christ)
4. get trained. (sealed & regenerated by the Spirit)
5. show up for work. (do the things befitting the position God has placed you in)

even if you never show up for work, you still get paid for your training hours.
but as you continue to put in time at the office, your paycheck increases.
even so, the apostle doesn't talk about this as a job -- but as slavery. and even a slave who does no work at all, remains a slave to his master, though unprofitable.
now, will the Lord sell His servant to another master if He is displeased with him? or will our Good Shepherd patiently train us in the right way? that's the question to ask. not whether by showing up for work before you've ever been hired is going to earn you a job. insurance regulations prevent that sort of thing, brothers!

 

[SeaBass]

Long as you know that it doesn't't require physical work to receive salvation but a person will do physical good work after salvation called sanctification.

It is not just some 'mental work' or mental assent of the mind. Belief, repentance confession and baptism all require some physical activity. Then upon becoming a Christian, a Christian MUST do good works (physical activity) to remain in a saved position.

Faith alone saves but faith that saves is never alone.
I mean salvation then sanctification.

A contradiction for something cannot be alone yet never alone.

 

[SeaBass]

The problem with Sea Bass' doctrine is that He can not accept a Free Gift on God's terms. He feels a need to do something to deserve it. Many others have the same difficulty. It is NOT the translation he uses!

It is his unwillingness to take God's gift on God's terms.

We are very unlikely to persuade him of his error; but we have a duty to point out his error to the discipled.

The real problem is some cannot accept the fact the free gifts can and do come with conditions and one must work to meet the condition before he can receive the gift. As long as people refuse to accept/understand this simple fact they will never understand biblical salvation and will just continue to make up their own man-made ways of how they think man should be saved having rejected God's terms.

 

[SeaBass]

an obedient work reconciles, justifies, redeems and brings us life, for sure!!

but it is not a work that we do; it is a work that the Lord Jesus Christ did:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Romans 5:19)​

you see, the gospel is good news, not bad and burdensome news. we are not looking for justification, we have been justified before God through the "work" that Christ did for us:

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
(Romans 5:10-11)

​

↑ please note the use of past tense in this!!


​

this is a thing to rejoicing over, to be ecstatically thankful for, to praise God because of -- not a thing to groan over, like a huge pile in the inbox. Jah has cleared your inbox - not so you can go chasing after the lusts of your eyes, for sure, but because the "works" necessary to be reconciled to God were impossible for us to bear - so He sent His likeness, Jesus the Son, to do that "works" for us.

"works" are the result of our redemption. they are the power of God working in us. becoming transformed into a new creature that does righteous works - by His spirit, not our own - is part of being "saved" - it is not us who work, but God working in us through the regeneration of His spirit.

i guess this is a thing that if you have not been truly reborn, you cannot comprehend.
appears H[SUB]2[/SUB]O alone was insufficient to make one a new creature, yes? it only cleans the outside of the flesh.

​

so see how that God is praised, and man has nothing he can boast about except that he was shown mercy?
but also see how vain man is, tripping around in darkness, puffing himself up.
the redeemed do works that befit the redemption they have already been freely given. (())
the lost seek to justify themselves by hollow labor.
both help little old ladies across the street, but one is trying to earn a badge, and the other doesn't necessarily 'have to' do it, but does it because it is now his nature.

Christ does not do obedient works for men, God has given those works to men to do. Those that choose to obey will be saved, Heb 5:9 and those that do not will be lost 2 Thess 1:8.

Not a single verse says "works are a result of our redemption", that's a man-made idea. Did Noah do the work of building the ark as a result of having already been saved from the flood?

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

The problem with Sea Bass' doctrine is that He can not accept a Free Gift on God's terms. He feels a need to do something to deserve it. Many others have the same difficulty. It is NOT the translation he uses!

It is his unwillingness to take God's gift on God's terms.

We are very unlikely to persuade him of his error; but we have a duty to point out his error to the discipled.

Amen brother Marc.
However at this point i feel he is unworthy of any response or even one moment of our time to attempt to correct his erroneous and contrary ramblings seen here at cc, even for the cause of pointing out his error to the "discipled". i have no bread or pearls left for him!

Matthew 15:26
And he answered, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

Mathew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

Romans 16:17
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

 

[SeaBass]

don't forget verse 19 --

"i put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves"
​

baptism is not mentioned in this passage. you inserted it.
he speaks of something taking place in the heart - and bathing happens outside the body.
it is belief that happens in the heart - belief in the work of another, Jesus Christ, being sufficient to save.
it is because we believe that He has taken upon Himself the burden of our sin, that we have been justified and reconciled.

a man doesn't acquire a job because he is already doing the work.
instead, he is first put on the payroll, and afterwards shows up and does his duty at the appointed time.

might want to look at verse 22 as well --

now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life
​

the truth is that the benefit leads to holiness -- not that holiness leads to the benefit, except that Christ's holiness (the work that God has done, not man) leads to our benefit!

horsecarts simply do not have a reverse gear.

​

Verses 19 or 22 do not change Paul putting obeying BEFORE free from sin/justified. Seems you're grasping for straws here....can one be a servant of righteousness having NEVER done any righteousness at all? No.

See my sig line below..as long as one continues to refuse to work righteousness he continues to not be of God.


Baptism is mentioned in the passages in verses 3-7. One is baptized into the death of Christ, his old man of sin becomes dead, v7 he that is dead is freed from sin and baptism is what makes one "dead" So the form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart to make them "dead" whereby they then could be freed from sin verses 17,18 is baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

speaking in human terms because of the limitations of natural selves.

order of events in getting a job:

1. find out abut an opening. (hear the Word)
2. put in application. (believe the word, putting your trust in the Lord)
3. become hired. (justified, reconciled and redeemed by the blood of Christ)
4. get trained. (sealed & regenerated by the Spirit)
5. show up for work. (do the things befitting the position God has placed you in)

even if you never show up for work, you still get paid for your training hours.
but as you continue to put in time at the office, your paycheck increases.

even so, the apostle doesn't talk about this as a job -- but as slavery. and even a slave who does no work at all, remains a slave to his master, though unprofitable.

now, will the Lord sell His servant to another master if He is displeased with him? or will our Good Shepherd patiently train us in the right way? that's the question to ask. not whether by showing up for work before you've ever been hired is going to earn you a job. insurance regulations prevent that sort of thing, brothers!

Philosophy of men where you are trying to get one impossibly hired (saved) BEFORE he repents, confesses Christ or has his sins remitted in baptism. You'll never get an impenitent person that denies Christ while living in his unforgiven sins saved by belief only.

Drop the human made up ways and follow God's way.

 

[SeaBass]

a good analogy, post.

we are SLAVES to Jesus Christ - bought with a price!

we definitely should desire to fall into the category of the -
(well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the Kingdom) -

for it is written:
I come quickly and My reward is with Me.'

A good analogy of man made philosophies.

How does one become a slave to Christ by doing nothing?
How does one become a slave to righteousness (Rom 6:16-18) by doing nothing?

 

[notuptome]

Verses 19 or 22 do not change Paul putting obeying BEFORE free from sin/justified. Seems you're grasping for straws here....can one be a servant of righteousness having NEVER done any righteousness at all? No.

See my sig line below..as long as one continues to refuse to work righteousness he continues to not be of God.


Baptism is mentioned in the passages in verses 3-7. One is baptized into the death of Christ, his old man of sin becomes dead, v7 he that is dead is freed from sin and baptism is what makes one "dead" So the form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart to make them "dead" whereby they then could be freed from sin verses 17,18 is baptism.

Dead in trespass and sin until quickened by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians chapter 2. Dead men cannot obey anything they are dead. Must first be made alive to obey. Dunking dead men in water does not give them life. Submerging them in the Holy Spirit gives life. Done by grace through faith. God does it not man. Dead men can only rot they cannot move except it be by an outside cause. God is that cause, Gods mercy for men dead in trespass and sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Amen brother Marc.
However at this point i feel he is unworthy of any response or even one moment of our time to attempt to correct his erroneous and contrary ramblings seen here at cc, even for the cause of pointing out his error to the "discipled". i have no bread or pearls left for him!

Matthew 15:26
And he answered, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

Mathew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

Romans 16:17
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Will you or Marc explained how belief only will saved an impenitent person? How belief only will save one who will not confess Christ or will not be buried in baptism to have his body of sin cut away by God, Col 2:11-14?

 

[SeaBass]

Dead in trespass and sin until quickened by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians chapter 2. Dead men cannot obey anything they are dead. Must first be made alive to obey. Dunking dead men in water does not give them life. Submerging them in the Holy Spirit gives life. Done by grace through faith. God does it not man. Dead men can only rot they cannot move except it be by an outside cause. God is that cause, Gods mercy for men dead in trespass and sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Eph 2:5,6 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedAnd hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

A clear reference to baptism where one is buried and raised up from that watery grave with Christ and made to sit in heavenly places IN CHRIST. How did they get IN CHRIST? Gal 3:27 for as many of you that have bee baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[posthuman]

Christ does not do obedient works for men

reposting for the blind:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Romans 5:19)​

we are made righteous by Christ's obedience. because of Christ's obedience, we are turned from slaves of sin into slaves to righteousness - the cause is Christ's faithfulness towards us, being the perfect likeness of God.
the effect is our righteousness, and what do you think, is righteousness without evidence to manifest itself before men, who cannot see the heart? ((see: James))

and who does the work?

it is God who works in you,
both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:13)

​

even this is not me posting - it is God working in me.

Not a single verse says "works are a result of our redemption", that's a man-made idea.

to the contrary:

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope — the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
(Titus 2:11-14)​

it is the grace of God - our redemption - which teaches us to live righteously, doing good works eagerly.
it is Christ who redeems and purifies us. it is Christ who makes us eager to do good.
it is Christ who chose us, and Christ who calls us.
it is not mr. fish who redeems himself. it is not mr. fish who fulfills the law. it is not mr. fish who calls God and says "hey looka me, i do good stuff, so you owe me some salvation, how 'bout it?"

it is Christ, not post, & not mr. fish, who is worthy of all​ glory.

mr. fish, i think you should read your bible.
and i think this time, you should pray that your eyes be opened, so that you may understand what you read.
i perceive that you do not.

 

[posthuman]

How does one become a slave to Christ by doing nothing?

by grace, through faith.
by the mercy of God, shown to the ungodly,
who put their trust in Him, not in themselves.

But to him that worketh not,
but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Romans 4:5)​

why do i bother with you? your ears are so full of H[SUB]2[/SUB]O you cannot hear, and your eyes see nothing but fish food, so that you are blind.

thank you for presenting opportunity for us who have received our Savior to glory in the richness of His mercy towards us!
for the negation of falsehood clarifies the truth

 

[dcontroversal]

a good analogy, post.

we are SLAVES to Jesus Christ - bought with a price!

we definitely should desire to fall into the category of the -
(well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the Kingdom) -

for it is written:
I come quickly and My reward is with Me.'

Amen and in a house are many vessels<----some of honor....some not so honorable...some with works of gold, silver and precious stones.....some with works of wood, hay and stubble......Yet all are still in the house! Some saved yet so as by fire!

 

[SeaBass]

reposting for the blind:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Romans 5:19)​

we are made righteous by Christ's obedience. because of Christ's obedience, we are turned from slaves of sin into slaves to righteousness - the cause is Christ's faithfulness towards us, being the perfect likeness of God.
the effect is our righteousness, and what do you think, is righteousness without evidence to manifest itself before men, who cannot see the heart? ((see: James))

and who does the work?

it is God who works in you,
both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:13)

​

even this is not me posting - it is God working in me.




to the contrary:

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope — the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
(Titus 2:11-14)​

it is the grace of God - our redemption - which teaches us to live righteously, doing good works eagerly.
it is Christ who redeems and purifies us. it is Christ who makes us eager to do good.
it is Christ who chose us, and Christ who calls us.
it is not mr. fish who redeems himself. it is not mr. fish who fulfills the law. it is not mr. fish who calls God and says "hey looka me, i do good stuff, so you owe me some salvation, how 'bout it?"

it is Christ, not post, & not mr. fish, who is worthy of all​ glory.

mr. fish, i think you should read your bible.
and i think this time, you should pray that your eyes be opened, so that you may understand what you read.
i perceive that you do not.

Rom 5:19
a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


If (a) is true, then (b) is also true is Paul's point. "IF" (a) teaches many were made sinners unconditionally by inheriting Adam;s sin then it's also true that exact same many will unconditionally be made righteous by Christ and you are pushing the idea of Universalism.

The truth is men are not UNconditionally made sinners by inheriting Adam's due to his disobedience but are conditionally made sinners when men choose of their own will to sin. Likewise men are UNconditionally made righteous by Christ perfect obedience but are conditionally made righteous when men choose to have an obedient faith. Christ's perfect obedience makes it possible for men to conditionally have an obedient faith thereby conditionally be saved in Him, in His perfect righteousness. The verse does not in anyway say that Christ's obeys for men. Christ's obedience in the life He lived and going to the cross was for ALL men therefore why is it that ALL men will NOT be saved? For all men will not CONDITIONALLY obey Christ Heb 5:9 thereby not take advantage of Christ's obedience. If Christ obeys for men then He would obey for ALL men and ALL men would be saved...but that is not how it is.

======================================================

Phil 2:12 goes with verse 13:
12 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

You are told to WORK out your own salvation. How do you do that? By doing/working those things as belief repentance confession and baptism that God said to do to be saved. So those that do what God said to do in believing repenting confession and submitting to baptism then God is working in them. God is not working in those that do not do what He says.

If God tells you to do "x" and you do it, then God is working in you.
If God tells you to do "x" and you do not do it, then God is not working in you.

 

[SeaBass]

by grace, through faith.
by the mercy of God, shown to the ungodly,
who put their trust in Him, not in themselves.

But to him that worketh not,
but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Romans 4:5)​

why do i bother with you? your ears are so full of H[SUB]2[/SUB]O you cannot hear, and your eyes see nothing but fish food, so that you are blind.

thank you for presenting opportunity for us who have received our Savior to glory in the richness of His mercy towards us!
for the negation of falsehood clarifies the truth

Once again for the umpteenth time, the "worketh not" in Rom 4:5 refers to WORKS OF MERIT in flawless law keeping one does in trying to merit his reward, to make his reward of debt and not of grace per verse 4.

Abraham was one who DID DO WORKS, Heb 11:8,17 and was justifed by those works, James 2:21-24 so the "worketh not" does not, cannot apply to Abraham.

Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."


How could one make his reward not of grace but of debt?? By flawless law keeping. If you could flawlessly keep God's laws then you would have no sin (sin is transgression of the law) therefore with no transgressions you would not need grace and your reward would be of debt (merited) not of grace. Pauls' point to those Jews he was writing to was that Abraham was NOT one who tried to keep God's law flawlessly, he "worketh not" in trying to make his reward not of grace but of debt........Abraham sinned. But Abraham has an obedient faith, not perfectly obedient, but obedient whereby God reckoned Him righteous.

 

[notuptome]

Eph 2:5,6 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedAnd hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

A clear reference to baptism where one is buried and raised up from that watery grave with Christ and made to sit in heavenly places IN CHRIST. How did they get IN CHRIST? Gal 3:27 for as many of you that have bee baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is no water in them there verses partner.

John 6:63 The word that I speak to thee they are Spirit the flesh profiteth nothing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger