Salvation Not Possible Without Works

notuptome · May 8, 2015

Apart from the Holy Spirit you cannot understand the scriptures. Jesus said that all that was contained in the word of God, the law and the prophets would not pass away even if heaven and earth pass away. Luke 16:17 Mat 24:35 Yet you want me to believe that God just ripped the OT up and tossed it away?

Now you need to reconcile your interpretation of those verses with the rest of scripture or all you have is a private interpretation and that is always wrong.

Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus satisfied all that the law required for righteousness sake. In so doing Jesus was able to take our place in judgment and receive our penalty for sin and give to us His righteousness. The enmity of the law was to separate us from God. Christ reconciled us back to God. Christ took away to incompleteness of the first OT and gave us the NT a better testament, a complete testament. In all this the law remains to point men to Christ that they might know they are sinners and that they must have a Savior or they will perish forever in the lake of fire.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

posthuman · May 8, 2015

have 229 pages of dispute been sufficient "work" to save anyone?

KenAllan · May 8, 2015

Its interesting that everything we do you equate with "Works".

You teach Belief is "Works".
You teach Repentance is "Works".
You teach Confession is "Works".
You teach Baptism is "Works".
You teach Obeying God is "Works".

You even teach when the people opened up the roof to lower the person in was "Works".

From what is see you believe "Works" is a process to bring about a result that you want.

The problem is you are mixing up that which WE WORK FOR with what we do because we follow Jesus Christ. There is a big difference between opening up a roof to let someone in because we know that Jesus Christ will heal him as opposed to opening up the roof for Jesus to heal the person by the WORK you did to open up the roof!

When you "Work" for everything the object of the "Work" is YOU! But when you do it Love because you follow Jesus Christ the object of what you did is now Jesus Christ!

Its YOUR PRIDE of doing "Works" that is driving you to teach a dangerous Doctrine that will lead people AWAY from God!

The minute you do ANYTHING because its demanded makes you the main object because it was YOU who did it.

But when do it in Love because you Love Jesus Christ its Jesus Christ that becomes the main object not you!

Do you see what you really are doing? Its your pride in doing the work that is driving you to do it, not Love.

Until you understand that everything we do like Belief, repentance, Confessions, Baptism, Obeying, is done in Love for Jesus Christ and not in "Working", you will never see the freedom and Love we have in Jesus Christ.

When you WORK for something what you receive is that which is not counted as Grace but as debt.

Romans 4:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

You SeaBass are trying WORK for Grace which will never happen. It by not doing works that you receive Grace and become Righteous!

seed_time_harvest · May 8, 2015

If someone says that you have to do works to be saved then i question their salvation because in real life we know thats not what happened.

GodGoesOn · May 8, 2015

SeaBass said:

In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.

Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff

It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.

A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?

So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?

Salvation+Grace+Faith=Good works

MikeHenderson · May 8, 2015

Salvation is by Faith and Grace, not by "Works".

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Salvation SeaBass if a Gift! You can refuse a Gift and you can toss away a Gift but you do not "Work" for a Gift! To "Work" for anything you receive Wages for your "Work", not a Gift!

Could it be SeaBass you are trying to "Work" for your Salvation so you can BOAST in front of God?

I like that verse KenAllan quoted.

Romans 4:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Your "WORKING" for everything SeaBass makes it a debt and is Unrighteous.

The only way you can be Righteous is to believe on Jesus Christ SeaBass and receive Salvation by Faith and not by "WORKS"!

Romans 4:2-4
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
[SUP] [/SUP]

Even Abraham did not do "WORKS" Seabass! Therefore "Works" is not in the O.T.!

SeaBass · May 8, 2015

KenAllan said:

They are all works. it would be denial of the bible, denial of reality to say they are not works.

KenAllan said:

Obedient works is what God requires of man...if man desires to be saved, Heb 5:9.

KenAllan said:

A lot of sophistry with no biblical basis to support any of it.

KenAllen said:

Rom 4:4,5......a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.

So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

ADDENDUM:

Some Jews that became Christians still would cling to the OT law in some way and in Rom 4 Paul was proving to the Jewish Christians in Rome,

1) that the OT law does not justify but only allowed for perfect, flawless law-keeping where one's reward would then be of merit and not of grace, verse 3,4

2) circumcision is not necessary to be saved, verses 9-11.

Paul used Abraham as an example of one who did NOT work to keep the law perfectly so he could merit his reward but instead had an obedient faith and Paul also used Abraham as an example of one reckoned righteous is uncircumcision.

Which brings us to Rom 4:12:

"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

Paul is saying the true descendants of Abraham are those who share in the same OBEDIENT faith as Abraham, those "who also walk in the steps of our father Abraham". Paul is making a contrast between an obedient faith/those that "walk" as Abraham to perfect law-keeping.

The word verb "walk" has to to with obedience, Abraham did not have a workless, dead faith only, thereby one must WALK in the steps of faith as Abraham to be a true descendant of Abraham.

Coffman Commentary (in blue) makes an interesting comment on the word 'walk':

Who also walk after the steps of that faith of our father Abraham ... These words mean "who have an obedient faith like Abraham." Abrahamic faith was not any such thing as faith ONLY, but it was a faith that walked after God's commandments, as pointed out under Romans 4:3; and Gentiles (or others) who would participate in the promise of salvation God gave through Abraham are here identified as those who "walk" in the steps of that faith, which is a way of saying they must have an obedient faith as did Abraham. Some of the so-called translations and modern speech renditions of the New Testament have butchered this verse by eliminating all reference to obedience:

For Abraham found favor with God by faith alone, before he was circumcised (The Living Word New Testament, paraphrased).

For those who have the faith of Abraham (NEB).

Because they live the same life of faith (The New Testament in Today's English).

The word "walk" or "tread" is in the Greek New Testament, and it should be in all valid translations of the word of God; but that expression is so obviously a reference to obedience that it cannot fit into the theories of salvation by faith alone; and the conviction persists that this fact influenced some of the so-called translations. It is admitted by all that Christians are saved by the same kind of faith Abraham had, before circumcision and the law; and a further study of the steps of Abraham's faith will reveal that obedience was coupled with it, and that it was by obedient faith that Abraham was justified.

At least 3 "translations" went so far as to avoid using the word "walk" with one even perverting the text to "Abraham found favor with God by faith alone". The same perversion that takes place here in changing to the text to "faith only" is the same that takes place in Rom 4:5 in adding the word "alone" to the verse. Abraham did not "believe only" in verse 5 no more than he had "faith only" in verse 12.

SeaBass · May 8, 2015

GodGoesOn said:

Too many verses to list but here are a few that put obedient works BEFORE salvation:
Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Rom 10:9,10; Rom 6:16-18; etc etc.

Is one first saved THEN does the obedient works of believing, repenting, confessing, submitting to baptism for remission of sins?

seed_time_harvest · May 8, 2015

Paul was talking about salvation
James was talking about sanctification

SeaBass · May 8, 2015

MikeHenderson said:

Faith is a work, so salvation is not by faith?

MikeHenderson said:

"Not of works" in EPh 2:9 refer to works of merit not ALL types of works. The very next verse refutes the idea that verse 9 excludes all works for one who has become a Christian cannot remain saved unless he walks in good WORKS that God before ordained Christians to walk in.

The same Paul that wrote Eph 2:9 also wrote Romans 6:16. Paul says you serve one of 2 masters, you either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

I serve #2, which do you serve? I have asked this a couple of times already with no response.

Paul goes on in Rom 6:17,18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Note the order of events:
1) were servant of sins
2) but obeyed form the heart that form of doctrine (baptism)
3) then made free from sin/justified

Paul does not contradict himself by saying in Rom 6:16-18 that obedience works justify then contradict that in EPh 2:9. Again, Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit and not obeying from the heart per Rom 6:17,18. The man made teaching of faith only creates a whole host of contradictions among various biblical texts.

MikeHenderson said:

Abraham most certainly did do obedient works, Heb 11:8,17 and it was by his works he was justified James 2:21-24.

James would not say Abraham was justifed by works and Paul contradict that in Rom 4:2. THe works in Rom 4:2 that Abraham would have something to boast about are works of merit, not his obedient works per Heb 11:8,17.

CONTEXT> Paul is writing this Roman epistles to Jews in Rome who had become Christians. One problem these Jews had was they still tried to cling to the law of Moses. They did not have the blood of Christ under the law of Moses and without that blood they had no way to have their sins remitted, washed away to be justified. The most that OT law allowed was if the Jew could work to keep that law flawlessly then he would have no sin and he could then stand justified before God. Therefore the Jews went about working to keep that law flawlessly to tey and make their reward would be of debt, not of grace, Rom 4:4...they were working to keep the OT law flawlessly to merit their salvation. Yet the Jew would ultimately sin. What Paul is pointing out to the Jews he is writing to in Rome in Rom 4:2 was that Abraham was not one who worked to try to keep the law flawlessly so he could merit his reward where he would have something to boast about. Instead Abraham sinned yet he had an OBEDIENT faith by which God would justify him.

Rom 4:4 to him that does not do works of merit to try and make his reward of debt and not of grace.
Rom 4:5 but to him that does not work to merit salvation but has an obedient faith on Him who justifies the ungodly

SeaBass · May 8, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

THey were both talking about salvation/justification

James 2:24---------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justify
Rom 6:17,18-----obey from the heart>>>>>>>>freed from sin/justified

Total, complete harmony, with Paul and James in 100% agreement that works/obeying>>>>justifies/frees from sin.

seed_time_harvest · May 8, 2015

How is both of these the same?

SeaBass · May 8, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that --------------believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ---------------works>>>>>>>>>>>> justify

There is just ONE way to be saved/justified, no alternatives, that can only mean believing is a work. Jesus calls belief a work in Jn 6:27-29.

No work = no belief = no salvation
No work = no salvation

MikeHenderson · May 8, 2015

I have found why you teach what you teach. You are using a translation the NEB that does not translate many Scriptures accurately.

Also the NEB includes many Scriptures from the Apocrypha books. This alone proves this is not a good translation that should be used.

In this translation they translated "the Spirit of God" as "a mighty wind". The Holy Spirit is a person in the Godhood with God, He is NOT a "wind"!

If the translators cannot understand who the Holy Spirit is then what else have they got wrong?

There are many problems with the New English Bible and this may be why you cannot see the Truth in the Scriptures. Very few people use this translation because of the problems created by how they translated it.

You need to use the NASB Bible, also the KJV Bible is very good. Some people like the NKJV better, i use both of them.

Thee are MANY Bibles out there but not all of them are profitable to use. I only use those that are close to what the writers say in the Greek Bible, not what the translators want.

SeaBass · May 8, 2015

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html

SeaBass · May 8, 2015

MikeHenderson said:

I have found why you teach what you teach. You are using a translation the NEB that does not translate many Scriptures accurately.

Also the NEB includes many Scriptures from the Apocrypha books. This alone proves this is not a good translation that should be used.

In this translation they translated "the Spirit of God" as "a mighty wind". The Holy Spirit is a person in the Godhood with God, He is NOT a "wind"!

If the translators cannot understand who the Holy Spirit is then what else have they got wrong?

There are many problems with the New English Bible and this may be why you cannot see the Truth in the Scriptures. Very few people use this translation because of the problems created by how they translated it.

You need to use the NASB Bible, also the KJV Bible is very good. Some people like the NKJV better, i use both of them.

Thee are MANY Bibles out there but not all of them are profitable to use. I only use those that are close to what the writers say in the Greek Bible, not what the translators want.

I copy and paste verses from Blueletterbible.com using 99% from KJV...sometimes ASV...rarely other versions.

seed_time_harvest · May 9, 2015

SeaBass said:

Long as you know that it doesn't't require physical work to receive salvation but a person will do physical good work after salvation called sanctification.

Faith alone saves but faith that saves is never alone.
I mean salvation then sanctification.

MarcR · May 9, 2015

The problem with Sea Bass' doctrine is that He can not accept a Free Gift on God's terms. He feels a need to do something to deserve it. Many others have the same difficulty. It is NOT the translation he uses!

It is his unwillingness to take God's gift on God's terms.

We are very unlikely to persuade him of his error; but we have a duty to point out his error to the discipled.

posthuman · May 9, 2015

an obedient work reconciles, justifies, redeems and brings us life, for sure!!

but it is not a work that we do; it is a work that the Lord Jesus Christ did:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Romans 5:19)

you see, the gospel is good news, not bad and burdensome news. we are not looking for justification, we have been justified before God through the "work" that Christ did for us:

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
(Romans 5:10-11)

↑ please note the use of past tense in this!!

this is a thing to rejoicing over, to be ecstatically thankful for, to praise God because of -- not a thing to groan over, like a huge pile in the inbox. Jah has cleared your inbox - not so you can go chasing after the lusts of your eyes, for sure, but because the "works" necessary to be reconciled to God were impossible for us to bear - so He sent His likeness, Jesus the Son, to do that "works" for us.

"works" are the result of our redemption. they are the power of God working in us. becoming transformed into a new creature that does righteous works - by His spirit, not our own - is part of being "saved" - it is not us who work, but God working in us through the regeneration of His spirit.

i guess this is a thing that if you have not been truly reborn, you cannot comprehend.
appears H[SUB]2[/SUB]O alone was insufficient to make one a new creature, yes? it only cleans the outside of the flesh.

so see how that God is praised, and man has nothing he can boast about except that he was shown mercy?
but also see how vain man is, tripping around in darkness, puffing himself up.
the redeemed do works that befit the redemption they have already been freely given. ((

))
the lost seek to justify themselves by hollow labor.
both help little old ladies across the street, but one is trying to earn a badge, and the other doesn't necessarily 'have to' do it, but does it because it is now his nature.

posthuman · May 9, 2015

SeaBass said:

don't forget verse 19 --

"i put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves"

baptism is not mentioned in this passage. you inserted it.
he speaks of something taking place in the heart - and bathing happens outside the body.
it is belief that happens in the heart - belief in the work of another, Jesus Christ, being sufficient to save.
it is because we believe that He has taken upon Himself the burden of our sin, that we have been justified and reconciled.

a man doesn't acquire a job because he is already doing the work.
instead, he is first put on the payroll, and afterwards shows up and does his duty at the appointed time.

might want to look at verse 22 as well --

now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life

the truth is that the benefit leads to holiness -- not that holiness leads to the benefit, except that Christ's holiness (the work that God has done, not man) leads to our benefit!

horsecarts simply do not have a reverse gear.

Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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