Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Cassian]

Eternally-grateful,

Every post where you add your works to the gospel. You are saying you save yourself.

Denying it does not mean it is still not true.

When one confuses the difference between "works of the Law" and "works of faith, or righteousness" one also misunderstands what salvation entails.

The works of the law is always refering to the work we would have needed to do to save ourselves from death and sin. Christ did that for us, since we could not. He kept the law perfect so that He could become the sacrifice for sin, we could not do that.

However, since God saved us from death and sin, we were created by God to be prophets, priests and kings with God over this creation. He saved mankind so that man and God could be reunited as Adam had been in the beginning. We were created for good works, Eph 2:10. We will give an account of our works, not our faith. Rom 2:6-8, Rev 20:13. Faith without the works is dead James 2:26 also must be a doer, James 1:23. Faith establishes the law Rom 3:31. We are as righteous as we do righteousness, I John 3:7.

I would like you to explain how you can love your neighbor without doing any work. Is this just a philosophical concept for you, or does it have substance? How about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those who are sick? We were created to be co-reconcilers with God, II Cor 5:19.

I Tim 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

 

[notuptome]

Eternally-grateful,

When one confuses the difference between "works of the Law" and "works of faith, or righteousness" one also misunderstands what salvation entails.

The works of the law is always refering to the work we would have needed to do to save ourselves from death and sin. Christ did that for us, since we could not. He kept the law perfect so that He could become the sacrifice for sin, we could not do that.

However, since God saved us from death and sin, we were created by God to be prophets, priests and kings with God over this creation. He saved mankind so that man and God could be reunited as Adam had been in the beginning. We were created for good works, Eph 2:10. We will give an account of our works, not our faith. Rom 2:6-8, Rev 20:13. Faith without the works is dead James 2:26 also must be a doer, James 1:23. Faith establishes the law Rom 3:31. We are as righteous as we do righteousness, I John 3:7.

I would like you to explain how you can love your neighbor without doing any work. Is this just a philosophical concept for you, or does it have substance? How about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those who are sick? We were created to be co-reconcilers with God, II Cor 5:19.

I Tim 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

This has been a lengthy thread but the OP contends that works are required to be saved. The bible says that we are saved by grace through faith and that apart from works. It further states that works will follow those who have been saved and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

In the abstract a man could be saved and not exhibit any works before men. The reality is usually that those who are saved will work works wrought of God. It has been well said that when someone as big as the devil goes out and someone as big as God moves into your heart there will be an inescapable change in who you are and how you live your life. This does not alter the underlying fact that salvation is by grace and can not be merited. We are righteous because God imputes His righteousness to us in His Son Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternally-grateful,

When one confuses the difference between "works of the Law" and "works of faith, or righteousness" one also misunderstands what salvation entails.

A work is a work is a work. Anything you do to earn something is a work. In other words, You are working for a wage.

A gift can not be earned by ANY work. otherwise it is not a gift, but a wage.

There is no difference. people try to make a difference so they can justify their own works.

The works of the law is always refering to the work we would have needed to do to save ourselves from death and sin. Christ did that for us, since we could not. He kept the law perfect so that He could become the sacrifice for sin, we could not do that.

However, since God saved us from death and sin, we were created by God to be prophets, priests and kings with God over this creation. He saved mankind so that man and God could be reunited as Adam had been in the beginning. We were created for good works, Eph 2:10. We will give an account of our works, not our faith. Rom 2:6-8, Rev 20:13. Faith without the works is dead James 2:26 also must be a doer, James 1:23. Faith establishes the law Rom 3:31. We are as righteous as we do righteousness, I John 3:7.

Yes, You will give an account of your works, we will even recieve reward (wage) for our works. But you will not be saved by your works. Otherwise salvation is not of grace, it is of works.

I would like you to explain how you can love your neighbor without doing any work. Is this just a philosophical concept for you, or does it have substance? How about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those who are sick? We were created to be co-reconcilers with God, II Cor 5:19.

I Tim 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

My friend,

You are speaking of how a child of God who is born of his should act.

I am speaking about how one becomes a child of God.

Two different thing, please try to stick to context.

 

[evangelist1]

A work is a work is a work. Anything you do to earn something is a work. In other words, You are working for a wage.

A gift can not be earned by ANY work. otherwise it is not a gift, but a wage.

There is no difference. people try to make a difference so they can justify their own works.



Yes, You will give an account of your works, we will even recieve reward (wage) for our works. But you will not be saved by your works. Otherwise salvation is not of grace, it is of works.

[/B][/COLOR]

My friend,

You are speaking of how a child of God who is born of his should act.

I am speaking about how one becomes a child of God.

Two different thing, please try to stick to context.

This was so eel said and very clear!
Amen!
Shalom

 

[SeaBass]

A work is a work is a work. Anything you do to earn something is a work. In other words, You are working for a wage.

So Naaman's healing was earned by his own work in going and dipping 7 times. Grace had nothing to do with it at all.

 

[Cassian]

This has been a lengthy thread but the OP contends that works are required to be saved. The bible says that we are saved by grace through faith and that apart from works. It further states that works will follow those who have been saved and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

In the abstract a man could be saved and not exhibit any works before men. The reality is usually that those who are saved will work works wrought of God. It has been well said that when someone as big as the devil goes out and someone as big as God moves into your heart there will be an inescapable change in who you are and how you live your life. This does not alter the underlying fact that salvation is by grace and can not be merited. We are righteous because God imputes His righteousness to us in His Son Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Starting from the last statement, Christ does NOT impute righteousness into the believer. He imparts righteousness as we do righteousness, I John 3:7.
I think where you are confused is that Christ does impute righteousness to mankind. The explanation of II Cor 5:18-19 or Rom 3:23-25 Christ is reconciling the world. He is making the world righteouss, meaning a correct relationship with God.

The OP contends that works are necessary to be saved. The OP is scripturally correct though not stated correctly. We are saved by and through faith. Faith has no content. It is the works of faith, of righteousness that gives our faith valildity. The works justifies our faith. We will not be required to answer to our faith, but we will be asked to give an account of our works. The Holy Spirit is working with man to do the will of God. The Holy Spirit does not do the works, man does which is why he will give an account of them.

All men have been saved by grace. All men were given the gifts to believe including faith. But it is all up to man to use those gifts. If we do not use them they will be taken from us. See the parable of the talents.
God created man for works, Christ restored mankind to the Image of God, having life, so that man and God could work together in this world. You are not earning or meriting anything. You are fulfilling your created mandate, it is expected of you, a condition of your salvation as a person. Those who abide IN Christ, those who endure to the end, those who follow Him, will inherit the promise awaiting them at the end, Our salvation is all conditioned on OUR faith, I Pet 1:3-5.
Our salvation does not depend on what the Holy Spirit does, but what we do with the Holy Spirit in fighting against the devil.
The Holy Spirit is not going to be judged on how well He saved you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Starting from the last statement, Christ does NOT impute righteousness into the believer. He imparts righteousness as we do righteousness, I John 3:7

the word impute means to credit to ones account, or to charge to ones account.

romans 4:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,And whose sins are covered;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

so would you like to try again?

 

[Cassian]

A work is a work is a work. Anything you do to earn something is a work. In other words, You are working for a wage.

Quite contrary. You are still confused between what Christ did for the world and what is man's response, an option to choose to be IN Christ and to reject Him. I do not need to work to save myself since Christ did that for me and every single other human being. Adam was created to work with God. He lost life, an eternal existence that precluded God ever having union for eternity with man. Christ restored the world, reconciled the world back to God. He did so because God still wants to have a relationship with man, now and for eternity. But there are conditions to be met, same as with Adam.

A gift can not be earned by ANY work. otherwise it is not a gift, but a wage.

True, so why are you confused. The Gift of salvation was given to the world, every single human being. The world was saved from death and sin by Christ alone. Man did not contribute a thing to the work of Christ. But our works of faith has nothing to do with what Christ did for us. He saved us from death, so that we could do the works we were created to do.

There is no difference. people try to make a difference so they can justify their own works.

when one is confused on the difference, I would imagine there is no difference. But scripture makes a very clear distinction.

Yes, You will give an account of your works, we will even recieve reward (wage) for our works. But you will not be saved by your works. Otherwise salvation is not of grace, it is of works.

Your works are NOT validating what Christ did for us. You will not be raised in the last day because you did some works. You are being raised in the last day because Christ arose from the grave with our nature, giving it life, an eternal existence. I Cor 15:12-22, Rom 5:18. John 6;39, Rev 20:13. Our works justifies our faith. Gives validity to our faith. We are being saved as a person, an individual because of ones own faith, not something Christ did. He made our being able to be reunited with God possible. Our very existance was to work with God in this world. We can choose to do that and remaining faithful is a requirement.

My friend,

You are speaking of how a child of God who is born of his should act.

I am speaking about how one becomes a child of God.

Two different thing, please try to stick to context.

You have not even mentioned how one becomes a Child of God. You misunderstood scripture thinking that Christ saved you on the Cross to a relationship. We enter into Christ by faith, "justification by faith". We are then being saved through that faith. It is the reason why God saved you and every siingle human being, so that each could freely choose to either serve God, or serve Satan. The choice is yours, once you enter, one must remain in that relationship. If one removes himself, he also removes himself from the inheritance, of being with Christ for an eternity.

 

[SeaBass]

Forget Calvinism for a minute. Christ has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust. We can not duplicate that kind of justice when Christ suffered for sins (1Peter 3:18). There is nothing that the sinner can do to reconcile himself to God, he must believe in the justice of God that made a way for all sin to be judged and for the sinner to be justified by faith. We can only believe through an act of faith in the justice that we see through the cross. Justification is by pure faith in the cross that includes the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We can not add to the cross, we can only believe and when we believe it is reckoned and counted unto us as righteousness.

Romans 4:1-8

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him (YOU & ME) that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him (YOU & ME) that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You post "We can only believe through an act of faith..."


Belief/faith is a work, an act as you say. Salvation for man is therefore CONDITIONAL upon man performing this act of fatih.


In Rom 4:4 the work the "worker" is doing in this verse to make his reward of debt and not of grace are works of merit.

Rom 4:5 Abraham was one who sinned therefore he did not keep God's law perfectly to merit his salvation as the worker in verse 4 attempts to do. What Abraham did have was an obedient belief, [Heb 11:8; James 2:21-23], which was reckoned righteous by God.

The mistake people make with this context is they try and make "worketh not" in verse 5 to exclude ALL works when it excludes works of merit and not an obedient belief.

Paul said "...to him that worketh not, but believeth.."

Believing is a work itself, Jn 6:27-29, so worketh not does not exclude the work of believing. Paul would not contradict himself by saying "to him that workth not, but worketh (believeth)..."
Nor did Paul say to him that "believeth only" for Paul makes repetance, confession and baptism essential to salvation, Rom 2,6,10

To have "worketh not" exclude an obedient faith totally contradicts waht Paulsays in Rom 6r where he wrote "obedience unto righteousness", v16.

Paul then says in verse 17,18 the Romans were:

first, servants of sin
Secondly, they obeyed fromthe heart that form of doctrine
thirdly, then theywere freed from sin/justified becoming servants of righteousness

The order of salvic events was obedience BEFORE justification/servants of righteousness....."he that doeth righteousness is righteous" 1 Jn 3:7.

 

[JaumeJ]

Impute is to give quality to someone from another regarding the words usage accordng to the Oxford dictionary. Impart is giving an attribute to another from another person o thing, to enhance. Again, according to the Oxford dictionary.

Without Jesus Christ, Yeshua, none of us would have grace, had He imparted it, or had He imputed it. To call anyone on using either is being just a bit festidious.
Oft times in the CC many of us will make an error, gee, me too, but normally others overlook what has been uinderstood, whether it suits some or not. I thank Yahweh for brethren who overook all of my typos and errors. God bless you all, dear ones in Yeshua, Jesus, amen.

 

[SeaBass]

So then, you are saying that all mute and paralytic people who seek forgiveness with a contrite heart will not receive salvation, but will be damned.

I will go in peace and ask that you do the same.

If a person was born mute God would not expect them to speak, but they can publicly confess Christ in some way. Just because a mute cannot speak does not excuse me from confessing with the mouth Rom 10:9,10.

ROm 10:17 says faith comes by hearing. Does this mean deaf people can never have faith? Of course not.

 

[Cassian]

the word impute means to credit to ones account, or to charge to ones account.

romans 4:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,And whose sins are covered;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

so would you like to try again?

Still confused. In the very same post I explained that Christ reconciled the world to God. Christ saved the world from death and sin. This work, because we could not do it, will be accounted to us when we believe. That is what justification means. It means a person, by faith, believing has been put into a correct relationship with God. But unfortunately for your understanding this does not save you. Along with repentance, baptism it places one Into Christ. Once IN Christ your personal salvation begins. Now we are being saved through our faith, not by our faith.

Which is why I John 3;7 now comes into play. As long as we do the works of faith, it will be accounted, righteousness imparted to us. Notice the difference. Impute is external action. Impart means an internal action. See the difference?

 

[SeaBass]

Nope.

He offered to wash everyone. Not everyone take him up on it.

Its not his fault people want to try to wash themselves (as if they could) or think they do not need washed.

So being saved is a CONDITIONAL CHOICE men must make to either to chose to be washed and be saved or not be washed and be lost. GOd does not chose for man which ones will or will not be washed. In 1 Cor 6:11 "washed' is middle voice, that is "you had yourselves washed" - they chose to submit to this washing.

Now can one be UNcondtioanlly be saved without doing this work of submitting to this washing?

 

[SeaBass]

What work did the thief on the cross do?

The thief may have been one of those of Mk 1:5 that was baptized of John confessing his sins. If he was or wasn't does not matter for the thief is not an exmple of NT salvation. Mt 9:6 > Christ is NOT ON EARTH today as He was back then forgivng sins as He did with the thief. Christ ascended back to heaven some 2,000 years ago and left behind His NT word as His authority as to how we today are saved and His word says we must believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16.

 

[SeaBass]

To obey the gospel is to believe it with an action of faith that comes from hearing it (Rom 10:17, Gal 3:2). The gospel was given that we might hear it and believe upon it for it is the power of God unto salvation (Acts 15:7). Salvation works for the the sinner because Christ died on behalf of the sinner. The gospel can only be believed upon through the obedience of faith (trust). Obedience to (or trusting in) the law was never able to bring salvation into the heart of man. The law reveals sin and man must go to God by faith through Jesus Christ and him crucified to be justified, cleansed and forgiven of sin, for sin was condemned in the flesh of Jesus Christ through the cross and not the law (Rom 8:3).

Rom10:13ff "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

One must hear to believe and believe to call upon the name of the Lord. This makes salvation CONDITIONAL upon man hearing, believing and calling upon the name of the Lord, which are works. Yet the fleshly Jews were lost for they "have not all obeyed the gospel", that is, the Jews would not do these works. As Paul said in Rom 10:3 the Jew have not submitted/obeyed the righteousness (commands) of God, they refused to obey by hearing, beleving and calling upon the name of the Lord.


You post "the law was never able to bring salvation into the heart of man"

The OT law cannot do this, but Christ's NT law can...Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" Jn 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments" Lk 6:46 Why call ye Me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?



You posted " Christ died on behalf of the sinner"

Christ died for every man, Heb 2:9. But every man will not be saved, Mt 7:13. Why?

 

[notuptome]

Starting from the last statement, Christ does NOT impute righteousness into the believer. He imparts righteousness as we do righteousness, I John 3:7.
I think where you are confused is that Christ does impute righteousness to mankind. The explanation of II Cor 5:18-19 or Rom 3:23-25 Christ is reconciling the world. He is making the world righteouss, meaning a correct relationship with God.

The OP contends that works are necessary to be saved. The OP is scripturally correct though not stated correctly. We are saved by and through faith. Faith has no content. It is the works of faith, of righteousness that gives our faith valildity. The works justifies our faith. We will not be required to answer to our faith, but we will be asked to give an account of our works. The Holy Spirit is working with man to do the will of God. The Holy Spirit does not do the works, man does which is why he will give an account of them.

All men have been saved by grace. All men were given the gifts to believe including faith. But it is all up to man to use those gifts. If we do not use them they will be taken from us. See the parable of the talents.
God created man for works, Christ restored mankind to the Image of God, having life, so that man and God could work together in this world. You are not earning or meriting anything. You are fulfilling your created mandate, it is expected of you, a condition of your salvation as a person. Those who abide IN Christ, those who endure to the end, those who follow Him, will inherit the promise awaiting them at the end, Our salvation is all conditioned on OUR faith, I Pet 1:3-5.
Our salvation does not depend on what the Holy Spirit does, but what we do with the Holy Spirit in fighting against the devil.
The Holy Spirit is not going to be judged on how well He saved you.

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. God made Christ to be our sin that we could be made the righteousness of God. Imputation of sin to one and righteousness to the other.

God is not capricious. God does not give grace unto salvation as a gift and then turn around and revoke it because of our unfaithfulness. You need to understand the difference between salvation and sanctification.

The first question to be asked and answered is: Is the blood of Christ wholly and completely sufficient to save us from our sins? If we lack a correct understanding of what it is to be saved we cannot understand how we are to live.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Every post where you add your works to the gospel. You are saying you save yourself.

Denying it does not mean it is still not true.

If you did not have this strawman argument you would have no argument at all.

Again, show the post where I have said I can save myself by myself?

You just contradicted yourself.

You claim I am running around when it is you. You just admitted. And I will quote you...

Anyone can go back and look at your posts and see you are taking the works of belief, repenting, confessing and baptism that God has given to YOU to do and try to put those works on God to do for you.

Notice something here, You claim these are works God says WE (YOU) should do.

When YOU do a work to earn something, YOU ARE doing the work. Thus your trying to save yourself.

There is no I in my gospel. It is God. Thus I can take no credit, Only God gets the credit.

So Naaman earned his healing by doing the work of dipping 7 times? He "healed himself by himself" threfore grace had nothing to do with it?

Your right.

1. God did not have to come to earth
2. God did not have to suffer all his sufferings as man
3. God did not have to hang on the cross

He chose to because he loved me.

He gave me faith, He gave me repentance, HE baptized me. Even though he does not have to, and is not obligated to

Because it is the ONLY way he could save me.

There is no love of God in your gospel. Your gospel says you do this, and I will save you. Again, Your trying to save yourself. Good luck with all your work. You will be right there with the pharisees and all their works wondering where you went wrong.

Yes, God did those things because He loved you. Now do you love God back for waht He did for you on the cross?

1 Jn 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jn 14:15, "21[SUP] [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments...He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

2 Jn 1:6 "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments."



You post God gave you faith. Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing, it is not something God randomly gives to some and withholds from others unconditionally or randomly.

If te only way one can have faith is by God giving it to them, thenthe faithless and lost are God's fault for failing to give them faith. Jesus once said to His disciples "Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm" If they could only have faith as a result of God giving it to them ,then Jesus' criticism should have been directed at God for failing to givem them the sufficient faith they needed.

 

[SeaBass]

Arminianism is just as bad, if not more dangerous, Because arminianism teaches that we save ourselves.

I do not believe in Arminianism.

 

[SeaBass]

Well, when you CLAIM you are doing those works, or else you will not be saved, That is exactly what your saying.

So it seems those fine young men are correct in what they are saying.

Obeying God's will does not earn anything. It did not earn Naaman his healing when he obeyed God by dipping in the river 7 times. Works did not earn the man his sight back when he went, as commanded by Jesus , to do the work of washing his eyes in the pool, Jn 9:6,7.

 

[Cassian]

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. God made Christ to be our sin that we could be made the righteousness of God. Imputation of sin to one and righteousness to the other.

This is a summary of the preceding three verses. It is stating quite clearly that all men have been made righteous by or through Christ. All men were made righteous, the world was reconciled by Christ to God, II Cor 5:18-19. Notice in vs 20 Paul exhorts those to whom he is speaking to be reconciled to God. That is what a person does by faith, called justification by faith. But justification does not save anyone. We are called to be workers with God.

God is not capricious. God does not give grace unto salvation as a gift and then turn around and revoke it because of our unfaithfulness. You need to understand the difference between salvation and sanctification.

He never revokes it. The Gift is given to all men and all men have it whether they believe or not. That is verified in all the texts that state Christ will raise all men from the grave. Christ defeated death for everyone. Not a single human being will not be raised, Christ will lose none, John 6;39.
However, the relationship we enter by faith is conditional upon our remaining faithful. Christ is not going to save you without faith, or when one loses faith. Why would He do that? He might just as well save every person to heaven, since that is what He desires of all men.

If you are no longer being sanctified (saved) then you are also no longer justified (in a correct relationship with Christ).

The first question to be asked and answered is: Is the blood of Christ wholly and completely sufficient to save us from our sins? If we lack a correct understanding of what it is to be saved we cannot understand how we are to live.

It seems you have some misunderstanding here.

His Blood is sufficient to save everyone from their sins. But the point is man must seek forgiveness of his sins. Unconfessed sin is unremitted sin. Sin separates man from God.