SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!
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At the mention of works some say, Oh you don't have to do anything Christ did it all for you just believe and all will be OK. I say OK too but if I believe in Christ obey his commands. Then they say oh no that is the flesh talking you can't do anything to be saved. I say OK yes he saved me and I love him so I must obey him and I will follow him wherever he goes and do whatever he wants. They say, are you crazy you can't do that you are trying to save yourself with works. Don't you know once you are saved you are always saved.Then I say I can't help but do the things that he did, there is a spring of living waters overflowing in me. They cry out heresy, counterfeit faith we want no part of you. So I went to the bible and found comfort in him
Rev 3
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
You completely miss the point of this thread as I as well as numerous others have said that a true saved child of God will serve God and do the things that are required....the contention is...does it add to our salvation and or help us keep our salvation or save us and the answers are no, no and no.....as salvation stands apart from any human effort or work and our complete eternal salvation which cannot be gained, maintained and or earned by man is complete in the faith of Christ!
J
Salvation is by faith, but good works clearly accompany those who believe, for "if you love Me you will obey my commandments" (John 14:15).
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
I'm sure that has been posted and discussed already.
Faith and works operate together. He who says he believes on Jesus Christ and acts a exactly like the world with no love in his heart, we know is not saved.
We also know that someone who is full of good works, but does not believe upon Jesus Christ, does not enter Heaven. Good works do not obtain for us righteousness that we need to be complete with God, only Christ does that. However, we know that faith or a simple belief (like the demons believe) does not save someone unless it is accompanied by a transformed life.
I see why this subject can cause so much contention.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
I'm sure that has been posted and discussed already.
Faith and works operate together. He who says he believes on Jesus Christ and acts a exactly like the world with no love in his heart, we know is not saved.
We also know that someone who is full of good works, but does not believe upon Jesus Christ, does not enter Heaven. Good works do not obtain for us righteousness that we need to be complete with God, only Christ does that. However, we know that faith or a simple belief (like the demons believe) does not save someone unless it is accompanied by a transformed life.
I see why this subject can cause so much contention.
Amen, I agree.
I would say confession is a verbal acknowledgement of what one agree with. Whether it be good or evil. I can agree with something in my heart without confessing it verbally. In my opinion, confession is an act of what one agrees with.
Regardless of the reason for the discipline/chastening, I see it still falling under the curse of the law. If they were walking uprightly before God, then they would be blessed by God, according to the OT law. Everyone seems to accept that. But if a child of God sins a sin that is to their own detriment, why doesn't the same law in the OT apply?
Because we are redeemed from the curse of the law of sin? If that were true, then God is breaking His word when He judges or chastens His children. If we are redeemed then how can He justify judging or chastening us?
I would appreciate your input concerning this topic. I don't see your reasoning.
Again, I would like to make this perfectly clear, that I am not now, nor have I been, talking about eternal death or separation from God. I am speaking specifically about physical weaknesses, such as sickness, to the point of physical death brought on by the judgement or chastening of God.
I would say confession is a verbal acknowledgement of what one agree with. Whether it be good or evil. I can agree with something in my heart without confessing it verbally. In my opinion, confession is an act of what one agrees with.
Regardless of the reason for the discipline/chastening, I see it still falling under the curse of the law. If they were walking uprightly before God, then they would be blessed by God, according to the OT law. Everyone seems to accept that. But if a child of God sins a sin that is to their own detriment, why doesn't the same law in the OT apply?
Because we are redeemed from the curse of the law of sin? If that were true, then God is breaking His word when He judges or chastens His children. If we are redeemed then how can He justify judging or chastening us?
I would appreciate your input concerning this topic. I don't see your reasoning.
Again, I would like to make this perfectly clear, that I am not now, nor have I been, talking about eternal death or separation from God. I am speaking specifically about physical weaknesses, such as sickness, to the point of physical death brought on by the judgement or chastening of God.
J
Works mean nothing when the motive is not correct. People always do a lot of works, but are not renewed. Those who are, it takes time to grow, even the word says so, grow spiritually, sometimes it takes a long time to grow out of selfishness. Salvation isn't based on works, it says faith without works is dead, meaning, believing in God, and not obeying his word, is the faith without the works. People sometimes exhaust themselves to death, by works, it is the opposite, come unto me all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give rest unto your souls. I think that the works are being obedient unto the Lord. So take it or leave it, just my opinion. 
*
*I don't think I do.
Job walked uprightly, and it's hard to find a more thorough drubbing by God.
Paul was God's chosen instrument, and his catalog of suffering is extraordinary.
Hebrews' hall of faith presents saints who have suffered exceedingly (Heb 11:35-39).
Well, I don't think I agree with your premise regarding God's blessing under the OT law.
Scripture states that we are redeemed from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13), which is the Mosaic law, not "the law of sin."
Do you believe Heb 12:5-11 regarding God's discipline of his children?
Okay.
Hebrews reveals that the Levitical priesthood has been changed to the priesthood of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11).
This change of priesthood necessitated a change of the law (Heb 7:12),
which had been given to the people on the basis of the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11).
The law was set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous (Heb 7:18-19).
Setting the Mosiac law aside made obsolete the Sinaitic (Mosaic) covenant based on it (Heb 8:13).
So in the NT God's people are not under the Mosaic law (Ro 6:14) with its curse for imperfect obedience
(Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10), because the Mosaic law has been set aside, and its curse is no longer operative.
The people of God are now under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2), which is the law of love
(Mt 22:37-39), with no curse for imperfect obedience, and which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13: 8, 9,10).
All of this is to say that God's chastening of his own in the NT is not judgment under the Mosaic law, because it has been set aside, and its curse is no longer operative.
Rather, it is the discipline of a Father for the good of his children (Heb 12:5-11).
Understood.
Job walked uprightly, and it's hard to find a more thorough drubbing by God.
Paul was God's chosen instrument, and his catalog of suffering is extraordinary.
Hebrews' hall of faith presents saints who have suffered exceedingly (Heb 11:35-39).
Well, I don't think I agree with your premise regarding God's blessing under the OT law.
Scripture states that we are redeemed from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13), which is the Mosaic law, not "the law of sin."
Do you believe Heb 12:5-11 regarding God's discipline of his children?
Okay.
Hebrews reveals that the Levitical priesthood has been changed to the priesthood of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11).
This change of priesthood necessitated a change of the law (Heb 7:12),
which had been given to the people on the basis of the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11).
The law was set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous (Heb 7:18-19).
Setting the Mosiac law aside made obsolete the Sinaitic (Mosaic) covenant based on it (Heb 8:13).
So in the NT God's people are not under the Mosaic law (Ro 6:14) with its curse for imperfect obedience
(Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10), because the Mosaic law has been set aside, and its curse is no longer operative.
The people of God are now under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2), which is the law of love
(Mt 22:37-39), with no curse for imperfect obedience, and which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13: 8, 9,10).
All of this is to say that God's chastening of his own in the NT is not judgment under the Mosaic law, because it has been set aside, and its curse is no longer operative.
Rather, it is the discipline of a Father for the good of his children (Heb 12:5-11).
Understood.
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Works mean nothing when the motive is not correct. People always do a lot of works, but are not renewed. Those who are, it takes time to grow, even the word says so, grow spiritually, sometimes it takes a long time to grow out of selfishness. Salvation isn't based on works, it says faith without works is dead, meaning, believing in God, and not obeying his word, is the faith without the works. People sometimes exhaust themselves to death, by works, it is the opposite, come unto me all ye that are heavy laden, and I will give rest unto your souls. I think that the works are being obedient unto the Lord. So take it or leave it, just my opinion. *
*
I happen to know a great deal more about faith than about salvation, and I believe ma'am you are incorrect concerning the works of faith.
When you say, 'not obeying his word', are you talking about something like in Mk 11:23 and 24? That explains how Jesus used the faith of God.
The works spoken of in James has to do with corresponding action, such as what Peter did with the impotent man at the gate beautiful. After Peter said, rise up and walk', he reached down and PULL the man to his feet before he ever saw any evidence of healing.
Faith is not thinking that God can, it's knowing that He will.
[SUP]There is correlation between work and faith or salvation in the sense the stronger our faith, the more fruit people can see, mean the fruit or the good work/love not produce salvation. conversely salvation produce good work or love.
Jesus said we are the branch and Jesus is the vine.
In this teaching Jesus assuming
1. us as a branch,
2 Jesus as a vine
3 work
Jesus said branch can not bear fruit itself.
So who produce work?
Jesus is the producer and we are the distributor, not the producer.
John 15
3[/SUP] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4[/SUP] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5[/SUP] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6[/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jesus said we are the branch and Jesus is the vine.
In this teaching Jesus assuming
1. us as a branch,
2 Jesus as a vine
3 work
Jesus said branch can not bear fruit itself.
So who produce work?
Jesus is the producer and we are the distributor, not the producer.
John 15
3[/SUP] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4[/SUP] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5[/SUP] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6[/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; [SUP]27 [/SUP]but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
I think you are pretty close to the truth. And as I have said before, that Cassian doesn't have it right either. Teaching OSAS is a dangerous practice. How could Paul, after teaching others, be disqualified? Why did he say this? It is because you can't "be saved" and then just sit on your butt. I don't think you gain it, loose it, gain it, loose it.... But to say that you should not work is not right. No, I am not justified by my works, but that does not mean that I shouldn't do them. Jesus paid it all, how ungrateful would I be to say thanks and then do nothing to further the kingdom. And for the others, we are not under the Law of Sin and Death either.
Hey dc, sorry about the "you are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God", it just came to mind when you wrote gain it, lose it, gain it.....
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; [SUP]27 [/SUP]but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
I think you are pretty close to the truth. And as I have said before, that Cassian doesn't have it right either. Teaching OSAS is a dangerous practice. How could Paul, after teaching others, be disqualified? Why did he say this? It is because you can't "be saved" and then just sit on your butt. I don't think you gain it, loose it, gain it, loose it.... But to say that you should not work is not right. No, I am not justified by my works, but that does not mean that I shouldn't do them. Jesus paid it all, how ungrateful would I be to say thanks and then do nothing to further the kingdom. And for the others, we are not under the Law of Sin and Death either.
Hey dc, sorry about the "you are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God", it just came to mind when you wrote gain it, lose it, gain it.....
