SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[dcontroversal]

It is so easy to see when you have not intelligent answer, you call names...

Not calling names as this is how I see you guys...like for example your pic reminds me of flipper......
Alligator makes me think of a Gecko and Sea Bass seems more like a Sea Perch.....has nothing to do with being mean or name calling as I call everybody by nicknames that mean nothing...for example I call my first born son Booger...even to this day and he is 19 so grow a little skin flipper and don't be so easly offended which is a sure sign of spiritual immaturity or even the lack there of...spirituality that is!

 

[dcontroversal]

Romans 2

New International Version (NIV)
God’s Righteous Judgment

2 You, therefore, have no excuse,[SUP](A)[/SUP] you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.[SUP](B)[/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or do you show contempt for the riches[SUP](C)[/SUP] of his kindness,[SUP](D)[/SUP] forbearance[SUP](E)[/SUP] and patience,[SUP](F)[/SUP] not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?[SUP](G)[/SUP]
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath[SUP](H)[/SUP], when his righteous judgment[SUP](I)[/SUP] will be revealed. [SUP]6 [/SUP]God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[SUP][a][/SUP][SUP](J)[/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP]To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor[SUP](K)[/SUP] and immortality,[SUP](L)[/SUP] he will give eternal life.[SUP](M)[/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil,[SUP](N)[/SUP] there will be wrath and anger.[SUP](O)[/SUP] [SUP]9 [/SUP]There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:[SUP](P)[/SUP] first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;[SUP](Q)[/SUP] [SUP]10[/SUP]but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.[SUP](R)[/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]For God does not show favoritism.[SUP](S)[/SUP]

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

How about that is the truth of the verse bro and I have it correctly interpreted....

???? Gecko....can you do anything that will ever change the fact of your biological birth by your parents?

????Gecko...can you do things that make your parents mad and for a time...maybe your whole life go without speaking because of what you had done to make them mad?

????Gecko...Did the fact of your biological birth change during the above descriptive questions?

SO is our SPIRITUAL BIRTH....

WE have a SPIRIT BORN OF GOD that does not sin, cannot sin and is eternally sealed in Christ....AT THE SAME TIME we are temporarily HOUSED in a SINFUL< FALLEN< CORRUPT<WICKED body that MUST BE DESTROYED AND OR REMADE.....

WE can SIN and fire up our FATHER who gets MAD and our FELLOWSHIP IS BROKEN and YET we are still SONS and DAUGHTERS which can NEVER CHANGE.....

HE IS faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us so we can BE IN THE LIGHT WHERE HE IS....!

Everything I said is correct so what is your point......?

 

[dcontroversal]

Actually, Hebrews reveals that the law was set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous (Heb 7:18-19).
That is referring to the whole Mosaic law, not just the ordination law.
And the ordination law is not the only law given at Sinai.

Hebrews reveals that in fulfillment of Ps 110:4, God changed the priesthood from the order of Aaron to the order of Melchizedek, making Jesus its new eternal, ever-lasting High Priest (Heb 7:11).
The change in priesthood made it necessary to change the law (Heb 7:12),
which was based on the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11).
And changing the law, setting it aside (Heb 7:18-19), made the Mosaic covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13)
because it was based on the law.

So there have been major changes made from the OT to the NT; i.e.,
the Levitical priesthood has been replaced (Heb 7:11),
the law has been changed (Heb 7:12) and set aside (Heb 7:18-19), and
the Mosaic covenant has been made obsolete (Heb 8:13).


Yes, it is a product of mistaken context by the readers of the NT, not by its writers.

James was not addressing the setting aside of the Mosaic law.
He was addressing the nature of faith, whether it is belief alone, or belief + obedience.


You omitted Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10; Jas 2:8.

And the law with its curse for imperfect obedience (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10) is no longer operative.
It has nothing to do with those in Christ.

Those in Christ are under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2), which is the law of love (Mt 22:37-39) and
which fulfills the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), making it unnecessary to practice it.

Those in Christ are saved by faith, which faith then obeys Christ's commands, which is the sanctification process.

I agree with this as well.....Amen!

 

[dcontroversal]

What is your definition of salvation? it might clear up a lot of things.

Lost------------------------------------>Saved
headed to hell lake of fire------------>Transposed into the Kingdom of God
Unbelief------------------------------->A believer

Born Again, Saved, Preserved etc.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Your point in relation to my post?

Yeah no doubt......

 

[Hoffco]

ThomistColin, Going to a monistary will not help your same sex attraction. For me getting saved, saved me from same sex.. then getting married cured me for good. If getting castrated is the only way for you to be saved, then do it. But, that really is not needed, Just get right with God and walk a good life. If you still need help, get hormonal drugs. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

dcontroversal, You forget, If we deny God ,He will deny us, because He will not deny Himself and save us by doing so, NO WAY. if we deny God , we go to Hell. Love Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Not calling names as this is how I see you guys...like for example your pic reminds me of flipper......
Alligator makes me think of a Gecko and Sea Bass seems more like a Sea Perch.....has nothing to do with being mean or name calling as I call everybody by nicknames that mean nothing...for example I call my first born son Booger...even to this day and he is 19 so grow a little skin flipper and don't be so easly offended which is a sure sign of spiritual immaturity or even the lack there of...spirituality that is!

We had another poster like that. . .she called me nilE.

Her name for Abiding was squirrel.

 

[Alligator]

Not calling names as this is how I see you guys...like for example your pic reminds me of flipper......
Alligator makes me think of a Gecko and Sea Bass seems more like a Sea Perch.....has nothing to do with being mean or name calling as I call everybody by nicknames that mean nothing...for example I call my first born son Booger...even to this day and he is 19 so grow a little skin flipper and don't be so easly offended which is a sure sign of spiritual immaturity or even the lack there of...spirituality that is!

l

This is alligator, do you think this Piranha suits my personality more?

 

[know1]

SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS! is the topic.
it did not say, believe in god, it says first believe in jesus. his son, then the rest will be added. to see, how god loves you.( a gift from jesus to all)

john 3. 16 god so loved the world, the world that he gave his one and only son,that who ever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

parables are the secret to the kingdom of heaven. that's why jesus only spoke to the crowd with parables. never explaining them, to the crowd. (so that would mean your using also the logus) the former explains john 3.16. so we have to believe in jesus to get eternal life. and if the holy spirit is a guarantee. to our belief in jesus. so we agree here.

however this gift is eternal and sealed, signed and delivered to the believer, they except jesus as lord, saviour, etc
so salvation only possible wjth believing in jesus Christ. no works required.

Question one. If salvation is by faith in Christ's work on the cross, and the only way to please God is by faith, and faith without corresponding action is dead, useless, worthless, and without effect, then is one saved without some type of work of faith?
Question two. Does believing without some type of corresponding work constitute it, the belief, as faith? Remembering that the believing spoken of in the gospel is not an inactive or passive belief. If it were then part of the epistle of James would be a lie.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works [or corresponding action] is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I think scripture speaks for itself.

 

[know1]

Do you believe Heb 12:5-11 regarding God's discipline of his children?

I do, but not the way you see it. If God just lays sickness on one of His children that has been pleasing Him, then God would be a hypocrite. I understand that God is sovereign, but He cannot do contrary to His word, and His word cannot conflict or contradict itself.

Hebrews reveals that the Levitical priesthood has been changed to the priesthood of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11).
This change of priesthood necessitated a change of the law (Heb 7:12),
which had been given to the people on the basis of the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11).
The law was set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous (Heb 7:18-19).

I would put it more along the lines of, causing one to walk uprightly before God. Eze 36:26

So in the NT God's people are not under the Mosaic law (Ro 6:14) with its curse for imperfect obedience
(Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10), because the Mosaic law has been set aside, and its curse is no longer operative.

Galations, chapter 3 is talking about justification to the saving of ones soul.
(CEV) Anyone who tries to please God by obeying the Law is under a curse. The Scriptures say, "Everyone who doesn't obey everything in the Law is under a curse."
(ERV) But people who depend on following the law to make them right are under a curse. As the Scriptures say, "They must do everything that is written in the law. If they do not always obey, they are under a curse."
(GW) Certainly, there is a curse on all who rely on their own efforts to live according to a set of standards because Scripture says, "Whoever doesn't obey everything that is written in Moses' Teachings is cursed."
(WNT) All who are depending upon their own obedience to the Law are under a curse, for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERY ONE WHO DOES NOT REMAIN FAITHFUL TO ALL THE PRECEPTS OF THE LAW, AND PRACTISE THEM."
Keep in mind that this is about one justifying themselves before God to declare them righteous, through their own efforts and acts of obedience to the law. Even as verse 13 is talking about salvation, so is verse 10. It does not negate the curse of the law concerning judgement through chastisement, reprimand, discipline, punishment, or rebuke to the point of one losing their life in the land of the living.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Is the above verses the case or situation, in most so called, Christian's lives? Have they crucified the affections and lusts of the flesh?
Do most Christians know how to walk in the Spirit so that they don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh? In order to accomplish that, one must know how to walk by faith. And I know most don't even know how it operates. They cannot be walking in the Spirit if there is something that is controlling them, or if they have an addiction, or a dependency on something, such as drugs or medication.
And if, or should I say, when they're not walking in the Spirit, then they are walking under the law and therefore the curse of it, for it has not been done away with to those who have not received Christ in their hearts, but to those who have, that walk in the spirit and by faith. If one is not walking by faith, then they are walking in the flesh. If they are walking in the flesh, then they are going to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If they fulfill the lusts of the flesh then they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:21

The people of God are now under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2), which is the law of love
(Mt 22:37-39), with no curse for imperfect obedience, and which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13: 8, 9,10).

Do you have scripture to back up the statement in red?
Sorry, I can't help you on this one ma'am.

All of this is to say that God's chastening of his own in the NT is not judgment under the Mosaic law, because it has been set aside, and its curse is no longer operative.
Rather, it is the discipline of a Father for the good of his children (Heb 12:5-11).

I didn't understand what you were getting at in Hev 12:5-11, until you made the above statement.
Would you spank your child, if he/she didn't do anything wrong? Then tell your child that you did that because you love them and you were trying to teach them something? I dare say, NOT!!! Well, neither would God, nor does He. God does not chasten His children when they are walking uprightly. And attacks from wicked people, such as persecutions, are not necessarily God correcting them. I would put it under punishment for disobedience. I'm referring to sicknesses, diseases, mental disorders, and other types of infliction that would cause some type of suffering.
I know you believe that God will inflict His children for no reason other than to teach them something and/or for their betterment, or something along those lines, but the way I see scripture, that is not the God I serve. He would be unjust and a hypocrite if He did. No, I believe chastisements, rebukes, reprimands, disciplines, punishments, and the like are for the disobedient, the stubborn, the hard hearted and stiff necked, the evil unbelieving heart, the proud, the self willed, ...etc., born again, child of God.

 

[know1]

Remember, it is God who said Job was righteous.

God addressed Job for thinking that God owed him an explanation, and for questioning God's
justice in afflicting him.
And, incidentally, God never told Job why he put him through all that.


Are you thinking of Paul's personal affliction here?

I'm talking about Jesus telling Ananias in Ac that He would show Paul how much he must suffer,
which we find catalogued in Cor.


As Job was greatly afflicted by Satan according to the will of God,
so Paul was greatly persecuted and afflicted by his own brethren the Jews,
according to the will of God spoken to Ananias in Ac.

However, his snake bite in Ac did him no harm, causing the observers to think he was a god.


Didn't he also lose all his family and possessions?


I don't think I know to what you are referring.

Are you saying that NT believers are saved from physical ailments?

Have you considered Timothy, who had a stomach ailment?


Didn't Paul likewise suffer through much persecution?

Jesus' work on the cross was to pay the penalty for our sin.
Are you saying Jesus' suffering was to redeem believers from physical ailments?


If I may clarify a little more. . .

The law of sin and the law of death are Ro 6:23: "The wages of sin is death."
However, the curse of the law (Ro 3:10), which is the law of Moses, to which Paul refers in Gal 3:13,
is the curse of the Mosaic law, for imperfect obedience (Dt 27:26).


Okay. . .was good to hear from you.

I rather enjoyed the read. Sorry 'bout this again, but I will have to reply to your post at a later date, again. But I will say, the part I wrote about Paul's infirmity of the flesh, you were right. Sorry I went off on a tangent. I lost sight of what the subject was. I'll try to stay focused next time.

 

[Hoffco]

I think we all agree that the temporal curse is still on all of us, we all get sick and die.It is harder for must of us to see that the eternal curse is only a potential thing to any of us who are still alive, we still have the opportunity to Repent trust and obey God and have that eternal curse of Hell lifted. I feel this is the meaning of the play between the "all" and the "many" in Rom.5:15-19. There is the opportunity of "all" to be saved,but in reality, only the "many" in Christ will be saved. Even Cain was given hope before He killed his brother. I don't see God offering any hope to Cain after he killed his brother. ????????????But we know God saved Saul after he had killed Christian, it is up to God who shows mercy. If one doesn't feel the curse of the law How can one get convicted of sin and repent of it? You can not get saved until you get lost. In Christ's salvation the curse of the law is lifted and now we are able to keep Christ's law, but not perfectly. And the Old T. believers were able to keep the mosaic law, but not perfectly. It was their delight. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[dcontroversal]

dcontroversal, You forget, If we deny God ,He will deny us, because He will not deny Himself and save us by doing so, NO WAY. if we deny God , we go to Hell. Love Hoffco

Every time you sin you deny Christ...so how many times have you been lost and saved again based upon your belief?

 

[dcontroversal]

Question one. If salvation is by faith in Christ's work on the cross, and the only way to please God is by faith, and faith without corresponding action is dead, useless, worthless, and without effect, then is one saved without some type of work of faith?
Question two. Does believing without some type of corresponding work constitute it, the belief, as faith? Remembering that the believing spoken of in the gospel is not an inactive or passive belief. If it were then part of the epistle of James would be a lie.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works [or corresponding action] is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I think scripture speaks for itself.

Why don't you quote the whole thing in context as the context is.....




SHOW <ME> YOUR FAITH!

ROMANS TEACHES CLEARLY THAT BEFORE GOD WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH!

 

[dcontroversal]

l

This is alligator, do you think this Piranha suits my personality more?

HAHAHHA ye in deed!

 

[dcontroversal]

I think we all agree that the temporal curse is still on all of us, we all get sick and die.It is harder for must of us to see that the eternal curse is only a potential thing to any of us who are still alive, we still have the opportunity to Repent trust and obey God and have that eternal curse of Hell lifted. I feel this is the meaning of the play between the "all" and the "many" in Rom.5:15-19. There is the opportunity of "all" to be saved,but in reality, only the "many" in Christ will be saved. Even Cain was given hope before He killed his brother. I don't see God offering any hope to Cain after he killed his brother. ????????????But we know God saved Saul after he had killed Christian, it is up to God who shows mercy. If one doesn't feel the curse of the law How can one get convicted of sin and repent of it? You can not get saved until you get lost. In Christ's salvation the curse of the law is lifted and now we are able to keep Christ's law, but not perfectly. And the Old T. believers were able to keep the mosaic law, but not perfectly. It was their delight. Love to all, Hoffco

Maybe you should re-read as God gave Cain space to...

1. Acknowledge what he did..
2. Repent
3. Be forgiven
4. Instructed that sin is at the door but he must MASTER over it.....

Brother do you even study?

 

[dcontroversal]

We had another poster like that. . .she called me nilE.

Her name for Abiding was squirrel.

HAHAH to funny...if it was set to "muse" music it would be backwards masking HAHHAH cough cough !

 

[newbirth]

Everything I said is correct so what is your point......?

What is so correct about this...
WE can SIN and fire up our FATHER who gets MAD and our FELLOWSHIP IS BROKEN and YET we are still SONS and DAUGHTERS which can NEVER CHANGE.....[h=3]1 John 3:9-11[/h]New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]No one who is born of God[SUP](A)[/SUP] will continue to sin,[SUP](B)[/SUP] because God’s seed[SUP](C)[/SUP] remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]This is how we know who the children of God[SUP](D)[/SUP] are and who the children of the devil[SUP](E)[/SUP] are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love[SUP](F)[/SUP] their brother and sister.[SUP](G)[/SUP]

[h=3]More on Love and Hatred[/h][SUP]11 [/SUP]For this is the message you heard[SUP](H)[/SUP] from the beginning:[SUP](I)[/SUP] We should love one another.[SUP](J)[/SUP]
[h=3]1 John 3:9-11[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another

 

[newbirth]

Lost------------------------------------>Saved
headed to hell lake of fire------------>Transposed into the Kingdom of God
Unbelief------------------------------->A believer

Born Again, Saved, Preserved etc.....

WE can SIN and fire up our FATHER who gets MAD and our FELLOWSHIP IS BROKEN and YET we are still SONS and DAUGHTERS which can NEVER CHANGE.....

Jude 1:4-6
King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


1 Peter 4:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.